ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

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elected4ever

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patman said:
E4E,

Honestly, please, consider it. If God knows all the future, then He knew it wouldn't happen. He knew they wouldn't do it. He knew what would inevitably happen. Yet he said "I'll do it without fail." How is that not a lie?

On the flip side, O.V. says he didn't know he wouldn't do it, he didn't know Israel wouldn't do it, He thought he would do it, so he said "without fail," so now it isn't a lie at all... It is justice.
If Israel had done what God had said and then god had not done it, then it would have been a lie. Knowing what Israel was going to do takes nothing from the promise made.

If you tell your kid that you will by pizza if they clean there room and all the time you knew they would not clean the room, was it a lie to give them the incentive to clean the room? No. because you were not obligated to buy the pizza because of the kids nonperformance. What was know by you is irrelevant to the issue at at hand.
 

Poly

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elected4ever said:
If you tell your kid that you will by pizza if they clean there room and all the time you knew they would not clean the room, was it a lie to give them the incentive to clean the room? No. because you were not obligated to buy the pizza because of the kids nonperformance. What was know by you is irrelevant to the issue at at hand.

Why would you even bother telling your kid you'd buy pizza if he cleaned his room when you already knew he wouldn't?
 

elected4ever

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Poly said:
Why would you even bother telling your kid you'd buy pizza if he cleaned his room when you already knew he wouldn't?
Now you would make me a judge of the motivation of God? Had you rather have God dictate there thoughts and actions? Then there would be no failure as the Calvinist suggest.
 

Clete

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elected4ever said:
Now you would make me a judge of the motivation of God? Had you rather have God dictate there thoughts and actions? Then there would be no failure as the Calvinist suggest.
You see what I mean E4E? You ignore sound reason and cling to your pet theology. You do it every time and I see no reason to think you will ever do otherwise. Your responses are shallow and predictable and obviously contrived our of desperation. You have no idea how to get out of the corner you've found yourself in here and so you pull the same intellectually dishonest crap you pull every time. You are incapable of admitting that you're even the slightest bit wrong or that any point of your theology doesn't make sense. How dare you call me a liar.
 

patman

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elected4ever said:
If Israel had done what God had said and then god had not done it, then it would have been a lie. Knowing what Israel was going to do takes nothing from the promise made.

If you tell your kid that you will by pizza if they clean there room and all the time you knew they would not clean the room, was it a lie to give them the incentive to clean the room? No. because you were not obligated to buy the pizza because of the kids nonperformance. What was know by you is irrelevant to the issue at at hand.

Yeah, it is a lie, really it is.. a small one in this case, but how can you say it isn't?

Man A knows Man B can't do something (Or wont, what have you.) He bets him a million dollars to do it and convinces him he can, when even he knows he can't. Man B looses and is broke. Your pizza analogy is just a smaller version.

Why Do I even have to explain this to you? How old are you again?
 

elected4ever

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patman said:
994



Yeah, it is a lie, really it is.. a small one in this case, but how can you say it isn't?

Man A knows Man B can't do something (Or wont, what have you.) He bets him a million dollars to do it and convinces him he can, when even he knows he can't. Man B looses and is broke. Your pizza analogy is just a smaller version.

Why Do I even have to explain this to you? How old are you again?
So, to you, God is a liar. That being said then God's word is not a reliable source of information. Am I understanding you correctly?
 

patman

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elected4ever said:
So, to you, God is a liar. That being said then God's word is not a reliable source of information. Am I understanding you correctly?

You are making my last 5 posts interesting.

You sure don't get it tho. No, God isn't a liar... UNLESS HE HAS absolute and total future knowledge as you claim he does.

God isn't lying to Israel when he says "without fail" ONLY because he didn't know when he said it that it wasn't true. His intentions were TRULY conditional because the outcome's conditions were unknown.

Do you understand? Will you please be honest with yourself and us and admit to it? Please? Stop insulting everyone's intelligence?
 

elected4ever

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patman said:
996



You are making my last 5 posts interesting.

You sure don't get it tho. No, God isn't a liar... UNLESS HE HAS absolute and total future knowledge as you claim he does.
like i said, God is a liar to you because the word says that he does know. I don't give a dam about your logic. It is clear you do not believe God.
 

godrulz

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Contingencies and conditional prophecies do not make God a liar. They simply show that God knows reality as it is (contingent/possible until it becomes actual).
 

Lon

Well-known member
godrulz said:
Contingencies and conditional prophecies do not make God a liar. They simply show that God knows reality as it is (contingent/possible until it becomes actual).

The apprehension of the concept of 'time' is the difficulty here. OV has a belief that is 'closed' to any other interpretation. I'm nowhere near being able to make a conclusion about this and it is the hinge upon which one's logic follows to conclusion. As long as the concept of time is in debate (probably until the end) we will probably not be able to agree or come to conclusive middle ground over this topic.
 

patman

Active member
elected4ever said:
like i said, God is a liar to you because the word says that he does know. I don't give a dam about your logic. It is clear you do not believe God.
Like I said, several times, it doesn't say he knows all of the future, it says he knows some of the future. YOU are the one who takes that to the Nth degree and makes it in to something more than it is.

There are too many S.V.er's on this thread who had plenty of chances to submit a verse that says he knows all of the future, and over a year later, no one has. Even after having been asked to several times.

And by doing so, you make God out to be a liar. Your theology does not hold up to scripture.

Your theology is what has driven so many unbelievers away from God because they are able to recognize the nonsense in the S.V.. And you stubbornly and hard heartedly refuse to change it.
 

elected4ever

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Knight said:
Does God have control of His knowledge? Or does God's knowledge control Him?

In other words....
If God decided He didn't want to know something could He choose to NOT know it? Or is God a slave to His own knowledge?
He has already chosen to do just that. So the answer is yes. He has chosen not to remember some things. "your sins and iniquities I will remember no more.
 

godrulz

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elected4ever said:
He has already chosen to do just that. So the answer is yes. He has chosen not to remember some things. "your sins and iniquities I will remember no more.

God does not have amnesia and cannot chose to not know something that we can readily recall to memory. The phrase is a Hebraism that has the idea of God not bringing our sins up again. He treats us as if we never sinned (justification). The legal issue does not depend on an omniscient God having memory lapses (a contradiction since God logically knows all that is knowable).
 

RobE

New member
Clete said:
Then I am seriously suggesting that you are stupid - seriously.

:eek:

What in the world was the point of putting Aquinas in there? Was that your way of making an appeal to authority or what?

Not really. I just wanted to point out that it wasn't Augustine or especially Molina. If I wanted to appeal to authority around here, I would have to mention names like Clete, Knight, BillyBob, or Philetus(you know the great ones).


Consider this: YOU ARE STUPID ROB!
:eek:

If the future cannot be changed then there is no "might of been". :doh::duh:

Isn't this what we disagree upon? I say there is contingency prior to the event and you say there isn't contingency prior to the event - if foreknowledge is true.

There is no might have been about the present you idiot!
:eek:

The present is present, "might have been" is passed. The passed and the present are the same thing Rob.

You lost me here.

There is no way you will ever convince me that you did not intentionally ignore this mixing of tenses

Maybe you could be more specific about which tenses I mixed. Perhaps from my perspective the tenses are un-mixed. :think:

- that makes you stupid and it proves you are desperate to find anything that will allow you to reject the idea of Open Theism.
:eek:

Based, in your view, on a prayer that we prayed after the fact, which we could not have not prayed and which God could not have not answered. Or is it your belief that God ever does something other than what He wants to do (unlike us)?

It is my belief that God does as He desires just as we do.

You mean the free will that we would never have exercised in any other way, right?

Right! I think you got it!

No duh. The point you miss and I believe at this point you do so intentionally, is that in your view, there is no "probably". With you, you WILL do what we WILL do and nothing else is possible - never mind probable.

Sure we WILL do what we WILL do even though other possibilities are in existence.

That A equals A will be true; even though A=B or A=C might be true?

The fact that in many cases A=B or A=C will not be true doesn't eliminate the possiblity that they might have been true. :juggle:
 

RobE

New member
elected4ever said:
You mind puting that in plan english. I keep geting lost in the suffel. :juggle:

Basically, I'm showing how the English language causes a Modal Fallacy based upon it's use.

When premises are set up they use the language to convey necessity or actuality or possibility.

  1. Actual Tenses
    • Past - "I did A."
    • Present - "I do A (now)." "I am doing A (now)."
    • Future - "I will do A (in the future)."
  2. Necessary Tenses
    • Past - ""I had to do A."
    • Present - "I have to do A (now)." "I must do A (now)." "I cannot do otherwise than A."
    • Future - "I will have to do A (in the future)."
      "I must do A (in the future)."
      "I will not be able to do otherwise than A (in the future)."
  3. Possible Tenses
    • Past - "I could have done A." "It was possible for me to have done A."
    • Present - "I could do A (now)." "I might do A (now)." "It is possible for me to do A (now)."
    • Future - "I might do A (in the future)." "I can do A (in the future)." "It will be possible for me to do A."

Now let's take some premises for analysis:

Premise 1a: Free will is defined as having the ability to do or do otherwise purely by an act of that will.​

Premise 1a speaks in the possible present tense.

Premise 2a: If a future action is known by whatever means then there is no ability to do other than what is known (or else) it could not be said to have been known.​

Premise 2a: Speaks in the necessary present tense.

Conclusion A: If the future is known, by whatever means, then I do not have free will.​

The conclusion A speaks in the actual present tense.​

The Modal Fallacy occurs in premise 2a where it assigns undue necessity.

Premise 2a basically states that "It must be that if a future action is known by whatever means then it could not be said to have been known."

Possible present tense.

I removed the "there is no ability to do other than what is known" and replaced it with an equivalent antecedent "It must be" because that gives us the ability to actually see what is being said here by putting premise 2a in the proper tense since necessity hasn't been proven anywhere in a prior premise, but is just simply put forward as being true.

One more example:

"If Paul has two sons and a daughter, then he has to have at least two children."​

The antecedent of this sentence expresses a true proposition. (Paul is my brother and he does have two sons and a daughter.) Thus according to the valid inference rule (known as "Modus Ponens") which allows us to infer the consequent of any true conditional statement whose antecedent is true, we should be able to infer: "Paul has to have at least two children."

Something is clearly amiss. While it is true that Paul does (in fact) have at least two children (he has three), it is false that he has to have three. He doesn't have to have any. He doesn't have to have one. He doesn't have to have two. He doesn't have to have three. He doesn't have to have four. Etc., etc. Put another way: There is no necessity in Paul's having any children, let alone having three. There is no necessity for Paul (just as there is no necessity for anyone else) to have at least two children.

"If Paul has two sons and a daughter, then he has at least two children."

Replacing the has to have(necessity assigned and deceptive) with has(no necessity and truthful) makes the statement valid.

Assigning necessity is tricky when speaking of two items such as foreknowledge and freewill which have logical connections which aren't obviously seen when people make statements.

I hope this clears it up,
Rob
 

elected4ever

New member
godrulz said:
God does not have amnesia and cannot chose to not know something that we can readily recall to memory. The phrase is a Hebraism that has the idea of God not bringing our sins up again. He treats us as if we never sinned (justification). The legal issue does not depend on an omniscient God having memory lapses (a contradiction since God logically knows all that is knowable).
But that is not what the word says is it. The word says that God will not remember. A decision of choice on the part of God that is beyond the understanding of mankind and must be accepted as a matter of faith, not logic. Everything cannot be explained in logic.

When God says something is true then it is true and we then we attempt to make logical explanations for it. Our logic may or not be factual but logic is our way of understanding things. It is our nature. Logic says nothing of somethings truthfulness. It says a lot about our understanding of it.
 

elected4ever

New member
RobE said:
Basically, I'm showing how the English language causes a Modal Fallacy based upon it's use.

When premises are set up they use the language to convey necessity or actuality or possibility.

  1. Actual Tenses
    • Past - "I did A."
    • Present - "I do A (now)." "I am doing A (now)."
    • Future - "I will do A (in the future)."
  2. Necessary Tenses
    • Past - ""I had to do A."
    • Present - "I have to do A (now)." "I must do A (now)." "I cannot do otherwise than A."
    • Future - "I will have to do A (in the future)."
      "I must do A (in the future)."
      "I will not be able to do otherwise than A (in the future)."
  3. Possible Tenses
    • Past - "I could have done A." "It was possible for me to have done A."
    • Present - "I could do A (now)." "I might do A (now)." "It is possible for me to do A (now)."
    • Future - "I might do A (in the future)." "I can do A (in the future)." "It will be possible for me to do A."

Now let's take some premises for analysis:

Premise 1a: Free will is defined as having the ability to do or do otherwise purely by an act of that will.​

Premise 1a speaks in the possible present tense.

Premise 2a: If a future action is known by whatever means then there is no ability to do other than what is known (or else) it could not be said to have been known.​

Premise 2a: Speaks in the necessary present tense.

Conclusion A: If the future is known, by whatever means, then I do not have free will.​

The conclusion A speaks in the actual present tense.​

The Modal Fallacy occurs in premise 2a where it assigns undue necessity.

Premise 2a basically states that "It must be that if a future action is known by whatever means then it could not be said to have been known."

Possible present tense.

I removed the "there is no ability to do other than what is known" and replaced it with an equivalent antecedent "It must be" because that gives us the ability to actually see what is being said here by putting premise 2a in the proper tense since necessity hasn't been proven anywhere in a prior premise, but is just simply put forward as being true.

One more example:

"If Paul has two sons and a daughter, then he has to have at least two children."​

The antecedent of this sentence expresses a true proposition. (Paul is my brother and he does have two sons and a daughter.) Thus according to the valid inference rule (known as "Modus Ponens") which allows us to infer the consequent of any true conditional statement whose antecedent is true, we should be able to infer: "Paul has to have at least two children."

Something is clearly amiss. While it is true that Paul does (in fact) have at least two children (he has three), it is false that he has to have three. He doesn't have to have any. He doesn't have to have one. He doesn't have to have two. He doesn't have to have three. He doesn't have to have four. Etc., etc. Put another way: There is no necessity in Paul's having any children, let alone having three. There is no necessity for Paul (just as there is no necessity for anyone else) to have at least two children.

"If Paul has two sons and a daughter, then he has at least two children."

Replacing the has to have(necessity assigned and deceptive) with has(no necessity and truthful) makes the statement valid.

Assigning necessity is tricky when speaking of two items such as foreknowledge and freewill which have logical connections which aren't obviously seen when people make statements.

I hope this clears it up,
Rob
Thank you
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
elected4ever said:
But that is not what the word says is it. The word says that God will not remember. A decision of choice on the part of God that is beyond the understanding of mankind and must be accepted as a matter of faith, not logic. Everything cannot be explained in logic.

When God says something is true then it is true and we then we attempt to make logical explanations for it. Our logic may or not be factual but logic is our way of understanding things. It is our nature. Logic says nothing of somethings truthfulness. It says a lot about our understanding of it.


If you knew Hebrew and understood the phrase in other contexts, you would not be defending a 'mystery' that would undermine explicit revelation about the nature of omniscience.

How can God literally have amnesia when I can think about past sins or Satan could run up to him and tattle? God would again remember and have to forget again?

If a believer murders someone, repents, and is forgiven, does God forget or no longer see historical truth? Does that make us smarter than God? Every time the news replays the details, does God leave the room? When the person is killed on death row, does God cover His eyes and ears in order to not remember?

Forgetfulness is not a condition of forgiveness. When you forgive another person, you chose to not bring up or 'remember' the past. It does not mean you cannot recall it or the facts disappear.

Jesus is a door. Does He have a doorknob for a belly button? Does he smell like a loaf of bread?

The more I hang around here, the more I think we need a course in logic, critical thinking, and sound hermeneutics (including finding out what a phrase meant in the original context, rather than a simplistic wooden literalism that is logically and biblically indefensible).

Refute me. I dare you. In my open theism view, I retain omniscience. Ironically, in your anti-open theism view, God cannot know (by choice?) facts that the rest of the world can watch on the evening news?!
 

elected4ever

New member
godrulz said:
How can God literally have amnesia when I can think about past sins or Satan could run up to him and tattle? God would again remember and have to forget again?
I don't think we are talking about amnesia here. This is a matter of God's choice and is highly selective. I don't purport to understand how God choses not to remember. I do know that it is not due to mental defect or injury. I can only surmise what it may or may not be but my opinion is just that , my opinion. It should not be presented as fact
 
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