ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Aletheia]

This is really pretty silly, don't you think? By your method of proving what is true, I could make the claim that God knows Casper the friendly Ghost. And if somebody comes along, wanting me to prove it, do you really think it's going to hold water when I attempt to do this by telling him to show me verses that say He does not know Casper?

:chuckle:

 

[godrulz]

Also note how God the Son states specifically that God the Father has exhaustive future knowledge.

The verse may say the Father knows a specific thing that He has control over (the timing of the Second Coming). Since Father and Son are one (apart from incarnation issues), the Son would share the Father's omniscience (except veiled incarnation issues). One cannot extrapolate a specific piece of knowledge as a proof text for exhaustive forknowledge. Other verses show a partially open future, so a contradiction would result.

 

[themuzicman]

Show the verses that says He does not. Isn't it rather because it troubles the logic that OV denies it? I don't see a lot of support for either of our views concerning God's foreknowledge one way or the other imperically (except the actual word). So there are 3 reasons I support the traditional view: 1) it is traditionally accepted - not that this means it cannot be wrong, but that history supports the position

SO, you believe in transubstanciation and praying to Mary?

2) it doesn't not constrain God to any of my own imaginings. I'm very uncomfortable trying to box God into what He can or cannot do, logically or other

So, you think that God can set the course of history, and then change it because He feels like it? OR do you constrain God to the history He's ordained?

3) it interprets what I see clearly in scripture concerning passages of God's foreknowledge. Foreknowledge means "He knows it before it happens" and it IS a biblical term. For that alone, and for this specific definition, there indeed are many scriptures. The translations have it correct it IS 'fore' knowledge.

Sure, but there isn't any basis for EXHAUSTIVE and DEFINITE foreknowledge. There is only foreknowledge of certain things that God intends to bring about. OV doesn't deny that.

OV seems to say "He cannot see future in actual knowledge." I'm not in agreement. Foreknowledge means exactly that, and it is a scriptural term. Knowledge does not equate merely with predictability.

God knows all possible course of the future, and knows actually both how He will respond to a given situation, and what He will do in the future at the right time. So, your definition is a bit vague.

Muz

 

[patman]

Knight has accused me of circular reasoning here, but I say unconditional prophecy is 'always' fulfilled. Conditional can be changed because it is posed as 'alternative.'

Conditional, unconditional. It depends which we are talking about. I see all unconditional prophecy as being fulfilled. Conditional means exactly that, there are conditions to be met. I have no innate foreknowing ability. I can guess, extrapolate, predict, or follow patterns, but I cannot say anything for sure about 'tomorrow.' I'm pretty sure the when I sit, the chair or couch will support me, but I've been wrong a few times, have broken a few chairs. Conversely, God has actual foreknowledge. It is real 'knowledge' and it is 'before' the event happens. That's what the word means.

What about the verses I showed in another thread? God said "I will, without fail, drive these nations out." Then later, God said "Before I said I would drive them out, but now I will leave them there to test you through them."

You will have to say these are conditional. But can you admit to the problem that is still at hand?

If God knew the prophecy wouldn't be fulfilled, why did he say it would happen? I mean besides getting them to repent or whatever reason... Why would God lie so good may come of it?

Can God Lie? Can you at least be honest with yourself and recognize a lie when you see one? (Remember, it is only a lie if someone says something that isn't true, and knows it isn't true when they say it)

 

[elected4ever]

What about the verses I showed in another thread? God said "I will, without fail, drive these nations out." Then later, God said "Before I said I would drive them out, but now I will leave them there to test you through them."

You will have to say these are conditional. But can you admit to the problem that is still at hand?

If God knew the prophecy wouldn't be fulfilled, why did he say it would happen? I mean besides getting them to repent or whatever reason... Why would God lie so good may come of it?

Can God Lie? Can you at least be honest with yourself and recognize a lie when you see one? (Remember, it is only a lie if someone says something that isn't true, and knows it isn't true when they say it)

Come on, The promise to drive out the nations was conditional.. Israel had there part to play and they didn't believe God and were without faith in the ability of God to do it. So because of Israel's unbelief God decided to give Israel a few lessons to teach them that if they were to be successful they had to rely on God's promises. As far as God knowing that Israel would not do what He told them, Of course He knew that Israel would not follow Him but following God was a choice Israel had to make and they have not done so to this day To this day Israel does not know what faith in God is as a nation. I dare say that most of us "christians" don't know ether.

 

[patman]

As far as God knowing that Israel would not do what He told them, Of course He knew that Israel would not follow Him but following God was a choice Israel had to make and they have not done so to this day To this day Israel does not know what faith in God is as a nation. I dare say that most of us "christians" don't know ether.

Exactly, like I said, you HAVE to say it was conditional, even though God, himself, said, with his mouth that does not know a lie, that he would, without fail, do it.

What a sentence, lot's of commas....

There are only two answers. Either God lied when he said it. Or he actually thought he woud do it!? "God forbid he not know the future, but heavens please, say he just lied..." is that your hope? I would think not, but it just goes to show that you S.V. constantly ignore scripture to hold on to your precious view.

 

[Poly]

Consider this, we cannot change the future – by anything we have done, are doing, or will do – from what it is going to be. But we can change the future from what it might have been.

Just as, we cannot change the present from the way it is. We can only change the present from the way it might have been, from the way it would have been were we not doing what we are doing right now. And finally, we cannot change the past from the way it was. In the past, we changed it from what it might have been, from what it would have been had we not done what we did.

:chz4brnz:



lain:

 

[elected4ever]

There are only two answers. Either God lied when he said it. Or he actually thought he woud do it!? "God forbid he not know the future, but heavens please, say he just lied..." is that your hope? I would think not, but it just goes to show that you S.V. constantly ignore scripture to hold on to your precious view.

I think there is a third option that you are overlooking.God did not lie. If Israel had then God would have. God has not changed His mine and God did not lie. There is nothing there that says that God did not know Israel would not. The truth remains. You guys are such dim wits.

 

[elected4ever]

Consider this, we cannot change the future – by anything we have done, are doing, or will do – from what it is going to be. But we can change the future from what it might have been.

Just as, we cannot change the present from the way it is. We can only change the present from the way it might have been, from the way it would have been were we not doing what we are doing right now. And finally, we cannot change the past from the way it was. In the past, we changed it from what it might have been, from what it would have been had we not done what we did.

You mind puting that in plan english. I keep geting lost in the suffel. :juggle:

 

[Clete]

I think there is a third option that you are overlooking.God did not lie. If Israel had then God would have. God has not changed His mine and God did not lie. There is nothing there that says that God did not know Israel would not. The truth remains. You guys are such dim wits.

If we are such dim wits then why did you just basically quote OUR position and claim it as your own without even realizing that you did so?

 

[elected4ever]

If we are such dim wits then why did you just basically quote OUR position and claim it as your own without even realizing that you did so?

Don't you get it moron. You say that if there is foreknowledge then God has robed you of you choice. I show you foreknowledge and you accuse me of taking your argument. Your pathetic. You are on my ignore list.

 

[Lon]

Why don't you try telling the government how imperfect my knowledge of this is.



Show me scripture that says he's not. (Just using your own means of proving that he actually is.)



True but too bad you attempt to go to the absurd and warp what it really means.

On day, there will be no taxes. The government will let you skip taxes if 'they' owe 'you.'

You are arguing against 'James' btw.

Casper was your ridiculousness, not mine. Foreknowledge is a Biblical term. Therefore, my challenge stands. He has it.

 

[Clete]

Don't you get it moron. You say that if there is foreknowledge then God has robed you of you choice. I show you foreknowledge and you accuse me of taking your argument. Your pathetic. You are on my ignore list.

You showed what you called foreknowledge and then we all almost in unison showed you how it wasn't the sort of foreknowledge claimed by either the Calvinist or the Arminian. It is in fact, the exact sort of foreknowledge that the open theists of the world believe in and so yes, you are using our own argument as though it is some sort of problem for us. Pretty silly.

And I do not say that "if there is foreknowledge then God has robed you of you choice", I say that if God has EXHAUSTIVE foreknowledge or if MY actions are known (or are even knowable) in advance then I have no free will. And no, I don't expect for you to acknowledge the difference.

And there is no way I would ever put you on my ignore list. You might be a fool, but your foolishness sounds reasonable enough to need refuting (hence the fact that you have any positive rep at all). The only people I put on my ignore list are those who do a better job of refuting themselves than I ever could.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Lon]

What about the verses I showed in another thread? God said "I will, without fail, drive these nations out." Then later, God said "Before I said I would drive them out, but now I will leave them there to test you through them."

You will have to say these are conditional. But can you admit to the problem that is still at hand?

If God knew the prophecy wouldn't be fulfilled, why did he say it would happen? I mean besides getting them to repent or whatever reason... Why would God lie so good may come of it?

Can God Lie? Can you at least be honest with yourself and recognize a lie when you see one? (Remember, it is only a lie if someone says something that isn't true, and knows it isn't true when they say it)

Conditional. If you take that verse alone, you missed it. You know as well as I do that the Israelites were responsible for driving out the nations.

Why ask questions God answers Himself? "Can God lie?" A 'mistake' is just as bad as a lie in result. It doesn't impinge honesty, but credibility. God does neither.

There are only two answers. Either God lied when he said it. Or he actually thought he woud do it!? "God forbid he not know the future, but heavens please, say he just lied..." is that your hope? I would think not, but it just goes to show that you S.V. constantly ignore scripture to hold on to your precious view.

Conditional

 

[Clete]

Casper was your ridiculousness, not mine. Foreknowledge is a Biblical term. Therefore, my challenge stands. He has it.

The term foreknowledge and the theological concept of foreknowledge believed and taught by the Calvinist are not at all the same thing. And so you challenge stands as nothing more than equivocation.

No one, including the Open Theist, denies that God knew in advance that many of the events of history would come to pass, nor do they deny that there are yet future events that God knows that He will bring to pass and so yes, there have been and remain many things which God foreknows, but again, this is a far cry from the doctrine of Divine Foreknowledge.

I. God, the great Creator of all things, doth uphold, direct dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, according to his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will, to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.

II. Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly, yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently. - ^{Westminster Confession of Faith: Chapter Five} ​

According to Aquinas, God is not dependent for his existence on anything, including his attributes. God is thought of as absolutely simple, not having any real parts distinct from God’s essence. God’s simplicity encompasses every attribute of God including his knowledge. To put it crudely, there is no difference between God, his knowledge, and the objects of God’s knowledge. So the object of God’s knowledge turns out to be God’s own essence. God’s essence contains within it the likeness of everything and God knows everything (including the future) by knowing his own essence. - ^source​

And there are perhaps dozens of other variations on this theme of exhaustive divine foreknowledge that very simply cannot be found anywhere within the pages of Scripture in any sense whatsoever.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[patman]

Conditional. If you take that verse alone, you missed it. You know as well as I do that the Israelites were responsible for driving out the nations.

Why ask questions God answers Himself? "Can God lie?" A 'mistake' is just as bad as a lie in result. It doesn't impinge honesty, but credibility. God does neither.

Conditional

It is conditional, I know, I said it before, but you have to admit he said he would do it without fail. AND you have to make up some reason for why it didn't happen. God clearly and plainly said "without fail."

Let me ask you this, if your wife said "I will love you without fail," then she cheated on you, would you be so willing to look over it? Her love is conditional.. right?

I do not mean to say she would do that, and I know conditional is an overstatement here, but really... how honest are you with yourself? If GOD is sinless and a million times more holy than your wife, and if he said "without fail," and then didn't go through with it, AND ON TOP of that, he knew they would fail in doing it (because of his extensive future knowledge), then why don't bells go off in your head? There should be alarms going off, there should be some logical thought process that tells you something is up with this future knowledge thing.

 

[patman]

I think there is a third option that you are overlooking.God did not lie. If Israel had then God would have. God has not changed His mine and God did not lie. There is nothing there that says that God did not know Israel would not. The truth remains. You guys are such dim wits.

E4E,

Honestly, please, consider it. If God knows all the future, then He knew it wouldn't happen. He knew they wouldn't do it. He knew what would inevitably happen. Yet he said "I'll do it without fail." How is that not a lie?

On the flip side, O.V. says he didn't know he wouldn't do it, he didn't know Israel wouldn't do it, He thought he would do it, so he said "without fail," so now it isn't a lie at all... It is justice.

 

[patman]

Also note how God the Son states specifically that God the Father has exhaustive future knowledge.

Note how RobE reads something that isn't there. :jawdrop:

 

[Lon]

It is conditional, I know, I said it before, but you have to admit he said he would do it without fail. AND you have to make up some reason for why it didn't happen. God clearly and plainly said "without fail."

Let me ask you this, if your wife said "I will love you without fail," then she cheated on you, would you be so willing to look over it? Her love is conditional.. right?

I do not mean to say she would do that, and I know conditional is an overstatement here, but really... how honest are you with yourself? If GOD is sinless and a million times more holy than your wife, and if he said "without fail," and then didn't go through with it, AND ON TOP of that, he knew they would fail in doing it (because of his extensive future knowledge), then why don't bells go off in your head? There should be alarms going off, there should be some logical thought process that tells you something is up with this future knowledge thing.

I think Clete has understood our position pretty well. Your analogies don't work and some of your presuppositions for questions are wrong.

 

[patman]

I think Clete has understood our position pretty well. Your analogies don't work and some of your presuppositions for questions are wrong.

960

Hmmm.