ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Nathon Detroit]

But this is really the crux of the problem Lonster! I surprised that you don't see it. Muz asked you a more fundamental question than I think you realize because a person's ability to play the "surpasses understanding" trump card doesn't just apply to doctrines such as open theism but to ANY doctrine! Your theological worldview openly accepts the existence of contradiction under the guise of " surpassing understanding". You therefore have forfeited any ground from which to object to any doctrine whatsoever. If some nut case came along and denied that Jesus was God and blew off all the Scripture that taught otherwise in the name of "surpassing understanding" how would you refute his argument without contradicting your own theological worldview? You couldn't! If you throw out sound reason, you throw out the only means by which you can falsify any truth claim whatsoever.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Well put! :up:

 

[patman]

Eph 3:18 you may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
Eph 3:19 and thus to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

These two verses astound me! To apprehend and comprehend that which is beyond apprehension and comprehension! We are to do the impossible here. It makes no sense and yet makes all the sense in the world. It is a glass darkly yet fills us up completely in our finiteness. It is beyond us, yet fills us completely. God is too big for our hearts, reasoning, logic, and apprehensions.

Lonster, this verse is a beautiful verse. It talks about the LOVE of God for us... a truly amazing thing, it really is.

If the love of God is so beyond comprehension, why did God make creation with the steering wheel pointed right at death and destruction? He knew when he made the "car" that more than %50 of it would get totaled before it even happened. Where is the love here? Why would God "lovingly" create a world like this?

Didn't Jesus show us what love is? Didn't Paul explain it to us? It always hopes... how can God have hope? If he already knows, hope isn't hope at all...

Romans 8:24
For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

1 Corinthians 13:7
It[love] always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

How can God love the sinner and hope he will change if he already knows?

You can pretend you can't understand what I am telling you, but I know you get it. There are too many aspects of love that we understand that the S.V. gives up on because the S.V. doesn't uphold God's love. It is a huge reason so many turn away from God these days.

 

[Lon]

I don't want to steal Muz's thunder here but I just can't resist responding to Lonster's post. I look forward to seeing what you have to say in response as well Muz so don't let me just take completely over here.


Sounds lovely but it is not biblical. There are several prophecies which did not come to pass as stated.


How so? The open view takes the Bible to mean what it says, including the times when it shows us prophecies that didn't happen.


Your theology is therefore unfalsifiable.


God is logic (John 1:1). Your position here is therefore contradictory and must be false. The contradictory is not only false, it is ungodly.


You are presenting a false dichotomy. Just because we don't know every detail doesn't give us reason to accept contradictions as truth. That is not what seeing in a glass darkly means at all. What it means is simply that we don't know the half of what we could know.


What set it that? People who reject the open view say this sort of thing all the time and never have a clear list of theological problems that they can saddle the open view with. The only one you've mentioned is the prophecy one and that's a non-problem because your position is unbiblical in the first place. What else, do you have?


God is who He is Lonster. You don't get to pick and choose theological systems based on which one comes to the conclusions you happen to like better. The open view attempts to maintain pure allegiance to the plain reading of Scripture and sound reason and then lets the chips fall where they may. If we find that the orthodox understanding of what sort of person God is has been wrong for the last several centuries then so be it. Our allegiance should be to the truth, not to doctrine.


But this is really the crux of the problem Lonster! I surprised that you don't see it. Muz asked you a more fundamental question than I think you realize because a person's ability to play the "surpasses understanding" trump card doesn't just apply to doctrines such as open theism but to ANY doctrine! Your theological worldview openly accepts the existence of contradiction under the guise of " surpassing understanding". You therefore have forfeited any ground from which to object to any doctrine whatsoever. If some nut case came along and denied that Jesus was God and blew off all the Scripture that taught otherwise in the name of "surpassing understanding" how would you refute his argument without contradicting your own theological worldview? You couldn't! If you throw out sound reason, you throw out the only means by which you can falsify any truth claim whatsoever.

Resting in Him,
Clete

More of the same. Logical or not. OV does not have an acceptable answer to these considerations. Once again, I'd rather be perplexed than wrong, which I believe OV is here. Clete, you are confusing vision and prophecy in this discussion. The vision is transcendant. It is also future. OV continues to fall very very flat on this.

 

[Bob Hill]

If God foreknew everything that will ever happen at some point in time past, when was that point?

Then, if He foreknew everything that will ever happen in time past, all His responses to all of our prayers were also foreknown by Him. Since all of our thoughts, actions, responses, etc. were foreknown, along with His responses, then, God couldn’t change anything that He had foreknown.

Then, no matter what we do, it was already foreknown and was locked in, with no possibility of any fluctuation of even one electron being different.

Since God predestines what He foreknows, in Rom 8:28-30, we, then, see that we were predestined at the same time we were foreknown: “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

Therefore, according to this thinking, everything in the future is and was determined before God created the universe. However, this can’t be shown from the Bible when we understand what the word repent really signifies – a God who is able to change His mind.

The absolute foreknowledge of God view would contradict God’s ability to respond to anything, now, because our prayers and actions and His responses were already locked in eternity past.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Lon]

If God foreknew everything that will ever happen at some point in time past, when was that point?

Granted it is is perplexing but we don't dismiss scripture or truth based on that perplexity. For instance, very similarly we have a similar problem with eternity past. I still cannot fathom something never ever having a beginning because it is not in my experience, but it is true nonetheless. We are like God, He is not like us. There is a big difference and by His very nature He exceeds our capacity to grasp Him intellectually. Our finite brains and logic are never all that God is. He is not definitive by us at all.

Then, if He foreknew everything that will ever happen in time past, all His responses to all of our prayers were also foreknown by Him. Since all of our thoughts, actions, responses, etc. were foreknown, along with His responses, then, God couldn’t change anything that He had foreknown.

Thanks Bob, your gentleness and careful patient posts are very inviting for discussion. It is very difficult to discuss these matters any other way and I appreciate this about you.

What God could or could not do in this scenario is a difficult concept. If God is at all foreknowing (and He is) there is difficulty with this despite how much He does know. Foreknowledge (Seeing future and contingency) is a biblical concept. Some of your prior students do not recognize this and have actually said it is 'anti-biblical' which is absurd and is in fact the opposite of what we actually do see when the term "knowing before it happens" is greek and scriptural. What OV amounts to is "Fore-guessing" or "Fore-planning" and it is the wrong understanding of definitions. Foreknowledge is the biblical term. Future is "known." I love the logic problems proposed here, and the intelligent question, but in the final analysis, I must be perplexed instead of wrong. This is an important component to my biblical understanding "You believe because you have seen, blessed are those who believe and have not seen." Faith is an important step in accepting what God says is true. I'm a long way from explaining the troubling concepts of foreknowledge, but I must accept scripture definition here. God knows the future, He knows beforehand. Again, understood by the very definition.

Then, no matter what we do, it was already foreknown and was locked in, with no possibility of any fluctuation of even one electron being different.

This is the dichotomy, we know experiencially this dichotomy isn't accurately seen, but that's the difficulty of trying to make sense of it. Somehow God knows, yet we have free-will and my brain simply cannot capture the perplexing. I've tried to provide scenarios for plausibility, but I don't really believe this is as necessary as accepting scriptural terms and truths as they are given. Somehow both freedom of choice and God's foreknowledge exist.

Since God predestines what He foreknows, in Rom 8:28-30, we, then, see that we were predestined at the same time we were foreknown: “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

Therefore, according to this thinking, everything in the future is and was determined before God created the universe. However, this can’t be shown from the Bible when we understand what the word repent really signifies – a God who is able to change His mind.

The absolute foreknowledge of God view would contradict God’s ability to respond to anything, now, because our prayers and actions and His responses were already locked in eternity past.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

We are considering the mechanics but it is organic as well. 'Locked in' is mechanical and 'responsive' is organic. Rather than either/or, both/or neither, I try to understand the terms given in scripture. Foreknowledge and freewill coexist.

Also In Him

 

[themuzicman]

Granted it is is perplexing but we don't dismiss scripture or truth based on that perplexity. For instance, very similarly we have a similar problem with eternity past. I still cannot fathom something never ever having a beginning because it is not in my experience, but it is true nonetheless. We are like God, He is not like us. There is a big difference and by His very nature He exceeds our capacity to grasp Him intellectually. Our finite brains and logic are never all that God is. He is not definitive by us at all.

What scripture is dismissed by saying that God doesn't have EDF?

Muz

 

[RobE]

Genesis 12:3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."

 

[Lon]

That is a good example. Also the fact that John had a vision of the future, was transported to that place one way or the other, interacted in that future, and wrote it down. John time-travelled somehow. In mind, in body, doesn't matter: It is a presented fact.

The word 'foreknowledge' is a Biblical word. It does not mean 'fore predictive' or 'fore guess' or fore round-ball-park.' Knowledge: 'knows.' It is a greek term and it translates perfectly: "Knowing ahead of time."

There are tons of these ideas in scripture, God knows beforehand. How much I'm not exactly sure, but He is God and until He tells me, I'll not extrapolate too hard. Tradition says exhaustively. I don't know, I don't know anything exhaustively. I don't even know how many hairs are on my head or what I'm having for dinner. I wouldn't be inclined to say one way or the other. I just don't know and I'm comfortable with that position. It is definitely more than OV allows, possibly less than tradition gives us. I just don't want to be closed to what I actually do see in scripture.

 

[Bob Hill]

There seems to be a difference between foreknow and predestine.
Here are all the passages with foreknowledge.
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death.

1 Pe 1:1-2 To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ

Here are all the passages with foreknow.
Acts 26:4,5 My manner of life from my youth, which was spent from the beginning among my own nation at Jerusalem, all the Jews know. 5 They knew me from the first, if they were willing to testify, that according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 11:2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
1 Pe 1:20 He indeed was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
2 Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware

Here are the passages with predestine.
Acts 4:25-28 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: Why did the nations rage, and the people plot vain things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against His Christ. 27 For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
1 Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages for our glory.
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.
Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.

God may have known before the foundation of the world that Christ would be the answer to any sin that man brought into the world, but He did not predestine Christ at that time. We find in Acts 2 & 4 that Christ Himself was not predestined, but He was delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God.

It looks to me that Christ was not predestined because He had the freedom to back out of the crucifixion. Instead, He conformed his will to the Father’s will.

In Christ,
Bob

 

[elected4ever]

T

God may have known before the foundation of the world that Christ would be the answer to any sin that man brought into the world, but He did not predestine Christ at that time. We find in Acts 2 & 4 that Christ Himself was not predestined, but He was delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God.

In Christ,
Bob

Then sir, You don't believe the Bible, plain and simple. You had rather believe your contrived philosophy than to mold your philosophy to fit the scripture. God does not bend His word to fit your belief but you must adjust your belief to fit the word and your logic be damned in the process.

 

[Lon]

The Apostle was committed to the future. He talked with those present, experienced the surroundings. He witnessed a future reality as if it were already taking place. There is no other explanation for this despite what sensibilities or logic you might wish to hold. It doesn't hold up at all to this specific account. OV does not understand the straightforward term fore'knowledge.' I've seen this term watered down to nothing but predictability and it is not at all a proper definition of the term.

OV needs to take a hard look at these two examples among others. Your logic should be screaming against the OV position on both of these points. Something isn't right or correct in the position. The term and the Apostle's vision flies against the grain of the OV belief.

 

[patman]

The Apostle was committed to the future. He talked with those present, experienced the surroundings. He witnessed a future reality as if it were already taking place. There is no other explanation for this despite what sensibilities or logic you might wish to hold. It doesn't hold up at all to this specific account. OV does not understand the straightforward term fore'knowledge.' I've seen this term watered down to nothing but predictability and it is not at all a proper definition of the term.

OV needs to take a hard look at these two examples among others. Your logic should be screaming against the OV position on both of these points. Something isn't right or correct in the position. The term and the Apostle's vision flies against the grain of the OV belief.

It was a vision... that should explain it

 

[Bob Hill]

elected4ever,

Thank you for your insightful response with all the Scripture you cited to buttress your idea?

Bob

 

[elected4ever]

elected4ever,

Thank you for your insightful response with all the Scripture you cited to buttress your idea?

Bob

Your statement is opposed to the scripture that you quoted. Why should I quote any passage? You will just change it to suit your self anyway.

 

[Bob Hill]

Open View Passages in God's word are very interesting.

Here are two from Genesis.

Genesis 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Here are a number of passages on why we see the Open View is true.

Exodus 13:17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, “Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.”
Exodus 16:4 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.
Exodus 32:7-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. 8 “They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’ ” 9 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 “Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 “Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 “Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’ ” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

God changed His mind a number of times. Therefore, He is able to do that - right?

Yes, RIGHT!!!

Bob

 

[Lon]

Bob, Can God 'change' His mind? Good question but there are other answers to the scenario. Again, the traditional view is that sometimes a conditional situation is implied. We from the SV position tend to believe that God is not a man nor does He think like one. The implication here is that if God changes anything, it is a response to man's change. OV has this part right in our relational God. His hand moves by our prayers. He is responsive to us. Change in God's decisions and feelings is relational to our change. He is God and is perfect. The only change we see in Him is in relation to our change of heart and actions. Of course it is important to individual will and choice for discussion. How much we are able to answer concerning this change of relationship to us and God's perfection is a difficult one to answer in complete clarity. Here I see through a glass not so clearly. How is God able to remain unchanging and yet relational? My best estimate is that He perfectly remains, yet responds to us and our actions, words, and motivations.

Patman, As to the 'vision' explaining everything....no it certainly does not. He talked with persons in that experience. He interacted. Regardless of whether physical or a mental journey, it happened and the key here is understanding it to be accurate, tangible future reality. God gave this vision. I apologize this is so invasive to the OV position but it is a truth of contention that is being too blatantly looked over and illogically dismissed.

 

[Poly]

How much we are able to answer concerning this change of relationship to us and God's perfection is a difficult one to answer in complete clarity. Here I see through a glass not so clearly. How is God able to remain unchanging and yet relational? My best estimate is that He perfectly remains, yet responds to us and our actions, words, and motivations.

You incorrectly assume that change implies imperfection.

If a man has a good and trusting relationship with his son because that son has been obedient and respectful, earning the trust of his father, if that son lies and decieves the father in some way and the father now changes his feelings to disappointment, not able to be trusting of the son, is that father wrong for changing his attitudefrom the one he had before this unfortunate occurance? Was this change good or bad on the Father's part?

 

[Bob Hill]

Lonster,

Here is my answer to the antinomy of predestination and free will.

The only thing that really counts in my mind, is biblical theology, God’s word.

That’s why it says in1 Corinthians 1:19-27 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty

Therefore, we must only look at the Bible.

The foundation of the Calvinistic view of predestination is immutability. Is God immutable? Is He impassible – not influenced by our problems? Does God ever change?

The question is not, does God change in His attributes. He doesn’t. He is love. He is merciful. He is omnipotent. He is always holy. God is light. God is omniscient.

He has other attributes that do not change. But, again, that is not the question.

The question can be stated a number of ways.

Does God ever really repent?
Does God ever really change His mind?
Does God ever think something will happen, and then it doesn’t?
Does God show emotion?
Does He change in any way in the state of His being?

I think the biblical answer to all these questions is, yes.

These ideas, instead of degrading God, cause us to appreciate and glorify Him all the more. He is and does do the things asked in these questions, but the most important thing for me concerns His supposed impassability – because He suffers.

In other words, He has passion.
This is the opposite of having no passion – impassability.

God suffers! What comfort that gives me. Our God is touched by our sufferings. God suffers because of us, with us, and for us.

In Hosea 11:1-4,8,9 it says, When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son. As they called them, so they went from them. They sacrificed to the Baals, and burned incense to carved images. I taught Ephraim to walk, taking them by their arms, but they did not know that I healed them. I drew them with gentle cords, with bands of love, and I was to them as those who take the yoke from their neck. I stooped and fed them. . . . My people are bent on backsliding from Me. Though they call to the Most High, none at all exalt Him.

How can I give you up, Ephraim?
How can I hand you over, Israel?
How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim?
My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred.
I will not execute the fierceness of My anger. I will not again destroy Ephraim.

For I am God, and not man, The Holy One in your midst, and I will not come with terror.

That is my God!

Bob Hill

 

[godrulz]

A clock would be imperfect if it did not change (it would only be correct twice every 24 hours). God does not change in His essential being and character, but He can change in His relations, thinking, feeling, acting, etc. without becoming less perfect. Strong immutability is a Platonic concept and overstates the biblical evidence (i.e. God changes in some ways, but not in other ways).