ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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lee_merrill
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This would be why God never need change his plan! Glad to agree...Philetus said:
Blessings,
Lee
themuzicman
Well-known member
lee_merrill said:
Glad to see that you've dropped this objection to OVT.
Muz
elected4ever
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Then why does the OVer insist that God changes His mind and can make amends for past mistakes that he made because of poor judgement? You can't have it both ways. I agree that pure Calvinism is wrong but so is the OVT that I have seen on this board. Just because one is wrong in certain assumptions does not make the opposite right. We need not place one in one camp or the other.Philetus said:
I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand but at the very least it shows that God does change so here's goes nothing....
Any more questions?
Resting in Him,
Clete
P.S. It's been some time since I read anything on this so if someone knows the details here to be off, please feel free to correct me.
Jesus did not become God, God became Jesus.rehcjam said:
Non-sequitor. Jesus is a man, He did not become one. However, if you mean "When did God become man?" then the answer is, "When He became Jesus." More specifically, God became a man when the virgin Mary conceived the Son of God in her womb by the Holy Spirit of God, which incidentally, may have happen, by our modern calender, on December 25th in the year 5 B.C. He would have been born then 240 days later on the Feast of Tabernacles in the year 4 B.C.
Any more questions?
Resting in Him,
Clete
P.S. It's been some time since I read anything on this so if someone knows the details here to be off, please feel free to correct me.
Philetus
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elected4ever said:
God doesn’t make mistakes or have poor judgment. Where did you ever get that impression?
God 'changes' or ‘adjusts’ to continue to include people in His plans; people who make mistakes, sin and have poor judgment. OVT isn't the opposite of pure or impure Calvinism. OVT is a theological statement of the truth about God as it is revealed in the Bible and in God's creation; neither which contradicts the other. Calvinism is a construct of what Augustine brought to the church from Platonism, which contradicts both the biblical revelation and the truth about God evident in creation.
Your struggle is that you want us to keep dealing with those things that you have brought from Calvinism though you yourself are not a Calvinist but are defiantly Calvinistic in your views. That is why you can’t hear what the OVT is really saying as your remark makes evident.
elected4ever
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I though they were grate answersClete said:
elected4ever
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Because you continue to make stupid statements like, "God 'changes' or ‘adjusts’ to continue to include people in His plans." God made his plan and God has not change it or adjusted it because man remains stupid for the most part. The whole idea is ridiculous.Philetus said:
lee_merrill
New member
Philetus said:
Josh 3:10 And Joshua said, By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites.
”On my next post, I'll show that God didn't do what He said He would in these verses.” (Bob Hill)
When God changes his mind, when he regrets he made Saul king, when he regrets that he made man on the earth. These would indicate mistakes, errors in judgment. Pastor Bob has again stopped discussing points with me, and I wish he would answer my questions. Please...
How then were people included in the plan to have Saul be king, what adjustment was made to include people in this plan? No, OVT says this plan was abandoned, not adjusted.Philetus said:
I agree that my views are Calvinistic, I also think I have heard what the OVT is really saying, they say God changes his mind, he repents.
He makes erroneous judgments.
So then again, we may not always trust God's counsel, for he may repent of that decision, and have to reverse it.
I grow tired of OVT people denying the plainest facts about their view, and also the plain facts in Scripture, in order to maintain it. Currently pending points continue below:
So if the Bible says the Lord took away, then that is who did it? And then Satan only served the Lord's good purpose, with a bad intent, as the Sabeans served the devil's intent, not with an intent to serve the devil, but to serve themselves.
Foolish fellow that I am, when I read "the trouble the Lord had brought on him," I think it means the Lord brought the trouble. This argument OVTers say is extraordinarily complex and convoluted, and yet they only tell me it's a figure of speech or a manner of speaking [i.e. it doesn't mean what it plainly says] because the context says otherwise, only the context says the Lord took away, every person in the whole book says the Lord did it, and the Lord does not correct this, Scripture even says this.
Job 42:11 They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring.
I suppose we might consider the gift here a manner of speaking, if our theology demanded it, we need not conclude the Lord gave back to Job, actually! For his friends and relatives gave, and then we can erase a plain statement that God gave, without any compunction.
No, what I meant is that the taking away involved sinful deeds, so then if the Lord did this, to say the Lord did cause a sinful deed, in your view, would then be blasphemous.
So then God made a choice when he saw these events happening, and to see a rock about to roll into a house, and not stop it, when you could, involves you in the consequences.
This a really is plain argument.
So this is a choice God makes, and then what happened to Job was chosen in your view to be allowed to continue, for this purpose. Then God indeed was involved in what happened to Job, he has responsibility here.
Blessings,
Lee
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patman
Active member
lee_merrill said:
All day long, I have been looking forward to getting back to this post. I read it this morning, and it was all I could do to not answer it then. But I had to go to work...
But now I am here. Ready to rip it up. Lets start with the fun stuff first....
Lee: So then God made a choice when he saw these events happening, and to see a rock about to roll into a house, and not stop it, when you could, involves you in the consequences.
:noway: .oO( No way?!)
Are you sure Lee?
Well let's see. Lets take this argument to its ultimate end. God is our creator and life giver. When he ends our lives, they continue in the afterlife. So... he kinda has the right to move someone from one side to the other. It isn't a sin Lee. Surely you do not think God ending a life is God sinning??
Wait, there is more.
God owns everything. Your stuff... not yours. Gods. His stuff. He can allocate it as he pleases. If a huge rock is rolling down a hill and hits a house, and God didn't make it roll, but let it hit the house, he certianly is not sinning, Lee. And obviously not involved.
You see? There is no way (NO Way! :noway: ) you can accuse God of sinning or being involved in a sinful act using this analogy at all. There is no involvement, for one, and there is no taking, murdering, or ANYTHING else wrong that God is condoning.
AND
You would have LOVED for that rock smashing into that house to have been God's plan!!!!! It is what makes you get up in the morning.
Is this --> :crackup: <--your face when you see a family slautered on a sidewalk by an evil father? Do you think "Praise God his will is done!!!"
How utterly despicable of you if it is.
God is not involved when he allows our actions. Otherwise all our actions would be pure and sinless because he does not sin nor create nor author sin. God is holy and has a pure, righteous mind. If God stepped in to stop everything there would be no love in the world. Surely you have hard this argued before.
Lee: No, certainly they don't. But if some plans can fail, then we cannot always trust God's counsel, because another choice might turn out better, even from God's perspective
Don't you get that his plans are sometimes conditional? Can't you trust God to make the right corse of action based on the conditions of the set plan? Apparently you can't. You do not trust God enough.. you admit that.
Lee: So if the Bible says the Lord took away, then that is who did it?
You also said Satan served God's purposes. Funny. I always thought Satan hated God and was not in his service. I guess Hitler was also serving God too...
Anyway.
The bible didn't say that. Job, who is in the Bible, and who is a fallible man, did. The Pharisees said Jesus had an evil spirit too... does that mean you blindly believe it because it is "in the Bible," Lee?
Shew... I knew there was a reason I was looking forward to this post.
Lee:Foolish fellow that I am, when I read "the trouble the Lord had brought on him," I think it means the Lord brought the trouble... only the context says the Lord took away, every person in the whole book says the Lord did it, and the Lord does not correct this, Scripture even says this. And yet they will deny this, and tell me a flat denial is all I'm going to get. I believe that, at this point! Sad to say.
Umm.... "Lord does not correct this?" Really? Well I thought that whole making Job and his 3 buddys sacrafice for their sins was God correcting them... Huh. Oh, and again "every person in the whole book says the Lord did it," is simply :shut: .... wrong.
Every Pharisee in the Bible but one said Jesus wasn't Gods son... So that makes it right? Because all those people said so, and God said other wise, yet lets listen to the people instead?? Even though God told them they sinned with their mouths? Can 5 People out number God and change what really happened with but their words?
:noway:
No way!
Lets just listen to every foolish man in the word and elevate his words above God.
Look, Lee, the author of Job was trying to show us that Satan did this to Job. He is trying to show you that everyone was blaming God. And they were all wrong, so God came down and set them straight. Your context is your own distorted view. But what can I say to you. You do not even listen to what God said, and listen to ignorant men instead. You won't listen.
Lee: No, what I meant is that the taking away involved sinful deeds, so then if the Lord did this, to say the Lord did cause a sinful deed, in your view, would then be blasphemous.
Job didn't say "the Lord did cause a sinful deed" until later. At first tho.. He was not sinning because all he said was "The Lord took away" and "We should take bad things from God as well as good."
Had Job said "the Lord did cause a sinful deed" In Job 1 and 2.. the author would have said he sinned..
You just don't seem to connect the story together right at all. Even after all of us try to tell you to just read it... You just go on and pull out whatever you can to prove God is a sinner.
Look at your own words...God causes sin? God planned for all evil? Satan works for God? Why do you blaspheme God Lee? What kind of christian are you?
lee_merrill
New member
No, God doesn't sin when he ends a life, and he has a right to act, but the question is whether his choice when he sees a sin taking place, and does not intervene, entails some responsibility for that decision.patman said:
Yet he made a decision not to stop it, and that involves him in the consequences.
This would be the conclusion, yet now we need to examine the arguments.
So an insult is an argument?
Now an argument! Then God is involved if he doesn't allow a sinful action? Just trying to clarify your position here. God is responsible if he intervenes? Or if, say, he removes a hedge?
I agree, that is my view, and then God does not change his plan.
lee_merrill
New member
Well, that was an insult, and a pretty towering one, actually.patman said:
Blessings to you,
Lee
patman
Active member
I have to start a new topic before Lee drags me back in.
I always wondered what it would have been like had Adam and Eve not sinned and t things went according to his plan. I have no basis for this, but maybe someone can validate or invalidate it:
Would god have ever let Adam and Eve eat of the tree "Once they were grown up enough?"
Perhaps this belongs in a different thread, but the best OVers are on here...
I always wondered what it would have been like had Adam and Eve not sinned and t things went according to his plan. I have no basis for this, but maybe someone can validate or invalidate it:
Would god have ever let Adam and Eve eat of the tree "Once they were grown up enough?"
Perhaps this belongs in a different thread, but the best OVers are on here...
elected4ever
New member
Lee, would you please quit making asinine statements like, "No, God doesn't sin when he ends a life, and he has a right to act, but the question is whether his choice when he sees a sin taking place, and does not intervene, entails some responsibility for that decision." God is never responsible for the acts of sin that a man does. It is man's responsibility to to punish evil. Man's failure to do so does not make God complicit in the act.
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
patman,
I have not seen any basis in the Bible for Adam and Eve not sinning. Therefore, I strongly assert that there is no basis that would convince all of us OVers.
However, there is a basis that all believers of this dispensation would be chosen in Him. This determination was made before the foundation of the world. What was the determination? That we who would be saved would be holy and without blame before Him in love.
Eph 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
Further, God had the basis of redemption, Christ the lamb of God who was foreordained before the foundation of the world. 1 Pet 1:19,20 the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world.
There are some things that God determined before the foundation of the World. The most important one was the death of the Son of God for believers’ salvation.
Thank you Lord Jesus,
Bob Hill
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