ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Bob Hill]

Good night you wonderful O V ists.

Bob Hill

 

[elected4ever]

Yes I do, and the inverse is true as well. Do you 'hope' for what you already have?

No, I hope for what I do not yet posess. The redemtion of the body in the day of Christ.

 

[godrulz]

Open theism is really a challenge to Calvinism and Determinism if you want to make a distinction between the two.

Everything is already decided from here to eternity by Calvinists.

The Bible shows us that we actually have choices.

I've always wondered why strong Calvinists believe God makes everything that happens, but they never act that way.

Just wondering,
Bob Hill

Calvinism does not preach well. It offers no hope to 'non-elect' sinners. It has no good news for them. We also all live as if the future is open and that we do have free will. Calvinistic theory does not resonate with self-evident reality or how we actually live our lives. The theory is incorrect on many points (Bible and reality shows this).

 

[Philetus]

Calvinism does not preach well. It offers no hope to 'non-elect' sinners. It has no good news for them. We also all live as if the future is open and that we do have free will. Calvinistic theory does not resonate with self-evident reality or how we actually live our lives. The theory is incorrect on many points (Bible and reality shows this).

There are a lot of bad rumors going around in the alley about God.

I have no greater joy than to see someone come to the realization that much of what they have heard about God is not true and that in Christ God has not closed the book on them. What good news it is to the out-of-favor-ones living lives of hopeless desperation to hear that God is for them and not against them. Nothing moves me more than watching someone embrace the truth of an open future that is as bright as the promise of God in Christ. What a privilege to extend God’s salvation hospitality to the wretched and see their joy as they embrace their salvation. I’m just a “delivery servant” delivering personalized invitations written in blood to the people Jesus misses most; the poor, the prisoners, the blind and the oppressed. I don’t write the invitations. I just deliver them. Not everyone responds. But, everyone is invited.

 

[godrulz]

Very eloquent expression of heart and head, Philetus. Calvinism's Achilles tendon is that it limits the love of God and makes it arbitrary. It limits the scope and efficacy of His plan of redemption. The gospel is good news. Whomsoever will may come. God's love is impartial and reaches out to all men, not a specious elect vs non-elect elitist system. John 3:16 must not substitute the Johannine use of 'world' for the Calvinistic concept of 'elect'.


Preach the gospel to all nations and individuals, not just the secret elect that only God knows? Those who come in repentant faith will become part of the elect people of God. Those who reject the gospel remain condemned. God is not willing that any perish. If they perish, it is their fault, not the decrees or will of God (mystery?).

 

[elected4ever]

There are a lot of bad rumors going around in the alley about God.

I have no greater joy than to see someone come to the realization that much of what they have heard about God is not true and that in Christ God has not closed the book on them. What good news it is to the out-of-favor-ones living lives of hopeless desperation to hear that God is for them and not against them. Nothing moves me more than watching someone embrace the truth of an open future that is as bright as the promise of God in Christ. What a privilege to extend God’s salvation hospitality to the wretched and see their joy as they embrace their salvation. I’m just a “delivery servant” delivering personalized invitations written in blood to the people Jesus misses most; the poor, the prisoners, the blind and the oppressed. I don’t write the invitations. I just deliver them. Not everyone responds. But, everyone is invited.

It is interesting that in Romans 8:29-31 ¶For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. ¶What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

The foreknowledge that is referred too is not to salvation but to the redemption of the body. No one will partake of the resurrection whom He did not foreknow and those who are foreknow off by God are also the ones that God called out of darkness They are the ones who are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. This passage has no reference to a persalvic foreknowledge of anyone. If the Holy Spirit calls and convicts the sinner and the offer of Salvation is received then and only then will anyone be foreknown by God. The Father knows His children

 

[Philetus]

When man is so rebellious that he is totally unpredictable, God explains His reaction to it in this way: Num 14:11-12 Then the LORD said to Moses: How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them? 12 I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.

Moses responded. 19-20 Pardon the iniquity of this people, I pray, according to the greatness of Your mercy, just as You have forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now. 20 Then the LORD said: I have pardoned, according to your word.

What we should do it praise Him for His love and care for us.

Bob

Brilliant! :cheers: Brilliant!
If God hadn't heard the prayer of Moses we would now be asking, "Abraham who?"
Oh, if we could only have the heart of Moses and quit trying to build new nations and just point people to the greatness of God's mercy in Christ.

 

[elected4ever]

Brilliant! :cheers: Brilliant!
If God hadn't heard the prayer of Moses we would now be asking, "Abraham who?"
Oh, if we could only have the heart of Moses and quit trying to build new nations and just point people to the greatness of God's mercy in Christ.

That is ridiculous even to assume such a thing. God would never have done what he suggested to Moses without violating his own word and promises. At which point God would have ceased to be God.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

So God allows Satan to take the blessings away. To "remove the hedge" so to say.

So then God allowed Satan to take away.

God didn't release the beast, he didn't order Satan to go, he didn't give a thug permission to steal.

Could God not have stopped any or all of this? If he could have, then he made a decision which affected Job, when he saw these actions about to take place.

Philetus: Sabean #1: Hey, I got an idea. Let’s take Job’s donkeys.
Sabean #2: Good idea. Where did you come up with that?
Sabean #1: I heard his hedge is down.
Sabean #3: Cool, dude. Let’s do it.

Patman: He did set boundaries tho. No hurting Job the first time. No killing Job the second.

So then God changed these boundaries (which I think is what was meant by the hedge, by the way), and this affected Job.

Lee: What about the Sabeans, I ask again? Who took away Job’s donkeys, the Sabeans, or Satan?

Patman: They were free too. Satan didn't make them do anything. ... Just like Satan's actions were his own. Satan's idea, Satan's actions, Satan's intentions, were all his own. Sounds like Satan did it to me, Lee.

Not the Sabeans? Satan was not instrumental when people were involved?

Even what he said is not blaspheme, "shall we take good from god and not bad" and "The Lord takes away" are a far cry from blaspheme.

It is if it refers to sinful deeds, is this not your view?

Blaspheme is where you curse God, call him a name. Misunderstanding God's actions is not blaspheme.

Yet Jesus spoke of blasphemy when the Pharisees said he drove out demons by the prince of demons.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Philetus]

It is interesting that in Romans 8:29-31 ¶For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. ¶What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

The foreknowledge that is referred too is not to salvation but to the redemption of the body. No one will partake of the resurrection whom He did not foreknow and those who are foreknow off by God are also the ones that God called out of darkness They are the ones who are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. This passage has no reference to a persalvic foreknowledge of anyone. If the Holy Spirit calls and convicts the sinner and the offer of Salvation is received then and only then will anyone be foreknown by God. The Father knows His children

OK. I think I follow. But, what has that to do with the delivery of God's invitations? Are you saying that God doesn’t predestine anyone to salvation or damnation, but when one accepts God's offer, they then become 'foreknown' and predestined to experience the resurrection to eternal life?

 

[lee_merrill]

God is all powerful. He can make anything that He thinks is important, happen exactly the way He wants it.

Except when his plan fails, and his expectations are disappointed, though?

Open Theism does try and have this both ways...

And [you have skipped my question again here, Pastor Bob!] if his plans do not always turn out well, then we need not always trust God's counsel, is this not correct?

Thus it will not always be best to follow the Lord's leading, events might turn out better with another choice, even from God's perspective.

Everything is already decided from here to eternity by Calvinists.

The Bible shows us that we actually have choices.

I do believe that believers can really choose within God's will, and there is real freedom in Christ, so this means God does not make every decision.

... everyone is invited.

With which I quite agree, and hope they all will come.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Philetus]

That is ridiculous even to assume such a thing. God would never have done what he suggested to Moses without violating his own word and promises. At which point God would have ceased to be God.

Lighten up E ... the point is God heard and answered the prayer of Moses. And if for any reason at all God destroyed the whole world today and started over, GOD WOULD STILL BE GOD whether you would allow it or not. Wrap your brain around that. That’s the difference between your attitude and that of Moses.

 

[elected4ever]

Lighten up E ... the point is God heard and answered the prayer of Moses. And if for any reason at all God destroyed the whole world today and started over, GOD WOULD STILL BE GOD whether you would allow it or not. Wrap your brain around that. That’s the difference between your attitude and that of Moses.

That is exactly what he is going to do BUT He will do it without changing His plan.

 

[godrulz]

That is ridiculous even to assume such a thing. God would never have done what he suggested to Moses without violating his own word and promises. At which point God would have ceased to be God.

God is personal. He can think and change in response to changing contingencies. Fatalism is Islamic/Calvinistic, not biblical.

The uncreated Creator cannot ontologically cease to be God under any circumstance. Your understanding of God and His ways may be deficient.

 

[elected4ever]

God is personal. He can think and change in response to changing contingencies. Fatalism is Islamic/Calvinistic, not biblical.

The uncreated Creator cannot ontologically cease to be God under any circumstance. Your understanding of God and His ways may be deficient.

How would you know? Your in charge of your own plan. You certainly don't believe God's plan.

 

[themuzicman]

That is ridiculous even to assume such a thing. God would never have done what he suggested to Moses without violating his own word and promises. At which point God would have ceased to be God.

What promises would God have violated?

Abraham would still be the father of many nations, the promise would still have been made through Isaac, there would still be a covenantal nation. They'd just have a most recent common ancestor of Moses


Muz

 

[godrulz]

How would you know? Your in charge of your own plan. You certainly don't believe God's plan.

God's plan is not meticulous and exhaustive in every moral and mundane choice ever made. Man, not God, gave names to all the animals. We are self-determining and mature. God does not have to dictate what we will wear today or what we will eat or when we will use the bathroom. He has given us limited, but significant freedom. Scripture portrays man and demons rejecting God's plan and will. God did not create a deterministic, robotic universe. There are consequences to misusing our freedom. Ideally, we submit to God's plan, but the mess the world and lives are in is evidence that many do not accept God's wise plan. In His sovereignty He allows this without losing control of the universe. He will bring His purposes to pass, but this does not mean that He purposes for people to be raped and killed.

Warfare, not blueprint...your worldview is flawed. Read the gospels and ministry of Christ. Warfare, not blueprint!

 

[Philetus]

That is exactly what he is going to do BUT He will do it without changing His plan.

Start over? I don't think so! Complete! God will complete his plan regardless of unforeseen contingencies.

You just blew your whole argument in one breath.

 

[Philetus]

God's plan is not meticulous and exhaustive in every moral and mundane choice ever made. Man, not God, gave names to all the animals. We are self-determining and mature. God does not have to dictate what we will wear today or what we will eat or when we will use the bathroom. He has given us limited, but significant freedom. Scripture portrays man and demons rejecting God's plan and will. God did not create a deterministic, robotic universe. There are consequences to misusing our freedom. Ideally, we submit to God's plan, but the mess the world and lives are in is evidence that many do not accept God's wise plan. In His sovereignty He allows this without losing control of the universe. He will bring His purposes to pass, but this does not mean that He purposes for people to be raped and killed.

Warfare, not blueprint...your worldview is flawed. Read the gospels and ministry of Christ. Warfare, not blueprint!

:first:

Post toastie of the week!

:up: HERO!

 

[elected4ever]

Start over? I don't think so! Complete! God will complete his plan regardless of unforeseen contingencies.

You just blew your whole argument in one breath.

Be careful Philetus, God might change his mind about you. The difference between you and me is that God's plan was COMPLETEDin His own mind before the earth was and remember, God instructs you. You do not instruct God. Its amazing how much power you have over God to cause Him to change His plan because you did something that God didn't plan for. Well shut :shut: my mouth. Man has authority over God! Who would have thunk it.