elected4ever
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OH I KNOW THE OVer
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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elected4ever said:
If an individual rejects parental, state, God, teacher, police, etc. authority, it does not mean that person has authority over true authority. It just means that they have come out from under authority and will suffer consequences for rebellion. Throw rebels into jail or the lake of fire. It does not negate or affect established authority. Authority is a rock that smashes rebels. Why do you think that misuse of freedom means the person trumps authority? Man can be autonomous, but that does not dethrone God or make the rebel a greater authority. One person out of billions does not threaten the throne or person of the sovereign God.
God gave us genuine freedom. This was a sovereign act. He can squash us like bugs. Freedom does not negate sovereignty. It does negate your misconception of sovereignty.
lee_merrill
New member
So there has to be the possibility of rape so there can be free will...godrulz said:
No, not war, can anyone bring any difficulty to God, or test his ability to any real degree? But see Psalm 2, "Your God is too small," as in J.B. Phillip's book to that title.
Blessings,
Lee
patman
Active member
lee_merrill said:
Lee: Not the Sabeans? Satan was not instrumental when people were involved?
Um. I never can guess about you lee. But I believe what the Bible says. If the bible says the Sabeans did it, that is who did it. Satan put them up to it. But regardless, Satan did take away much from Job. Are you THAT stretched to prove me wrong?
After all, it is getting sad, Lee. You gotta scrap the bottom don't you? Will that argument lead me to think God did this to Job? Ha. No. But you will not humble yourself and step away from the evil teachings you have.
Me: Even what he said is not blaspheme, "shall we take good from god and not bad" and "The Lord takes away" are a far cry from blaspheme.
Lee: It is if it refers to sinful deeds, is this not your view?
I just said it wasn't didn't I? Job didn't understand what was going on. YOU, Lee Merrill, ..... well, I was going to say "you do understand"... But you don't. So.... You should understand. You possess the ability to read. But you allow your views to twist your view of God's holiness.
God can stop sin. God will stop sin too. But not before he knows who will love God.
Jesus Explains why Gods allows for sin:
Matthew 13
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
And just in case that went over your head...
Matthew 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
God must allow for good and evil until he knows what everyone will choose. Job is no different. God allowed for Satan to afflict Job. No involvement, only wisdom.
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Open Theism is about the God of the Bible, and His ability to repent, have feelings, passion, remorse, anger, expectations, be sorry, and most of all, being able to come as a man and die for our sins.
Open theology is based strictly on the Bible’s statements about our glorious God. It is the biblical theology that shows that God gave man enough freedom to believe God when God said he may be saved by believing in Jesus Christ as his Savior because He died for him.
We Open Theists also believe God has the ability to change His mind or repent about something He said He would do. He usually does this when man has done something to cause God to either repent from harm that He said He would do, or repent from something good that He said He would do for man, but because man sinned, He now says He will not do it.
It is also the answer to the Calvinistic view that God predetermines everything that has happened and will happen. I have much material on this subject on my site.
I learned about this position about 45 years ago. At that time, I knew of no one who believed it. That has dramatically changed in the last 20 years.
Here are the kind of passages I’m talking about. Genesis 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Open theology is based strictly on the Bible’s statements about our glorious God. It is the biblical theology that shows that God gave man enough freedom to believe God when God said he may be saved by believing in Jesus Christ as his Savior because He died for him.
We Open Theists also believe God has the ability to change His mind or repent about something He said He would do. He usually does this when man has done something to cause God to either repent from harm that He said He would do, or repent from something good that He said He would do for man, but because man sinned, He now says He will not do it.
It is also the answer to the Calvinistic view that God predetermines everything that has happened and will happen. I have much material on this subject on my site.
I learned about this position about 45 years ago. At that time, I knew of no one who believed it. That has dramatically changed in the last 20 years.
Here are the kind of passages I’m talking about. Genesis 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Exodus 13:17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, “Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.”
What does that bolded statement mean? Did God know for sure what Israel would do?
In Christ,
Bob Hill
What does that bolded statement mean? Did God know for sure what Israel would do?
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
When we trust in Christ as our Savior, an abundance of things happen. We are now free from the law. We must realize that we were freed from sin.
This is really clearly shown in Rom 6:3,4,6,7,18,22 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. . . . 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him , that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been justified from sin. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 22 But now having been set free from sin and having become slaves of God, you have [two things] your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
This is really clearly shown in Rom 6:3,4,6,7,18,22 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. . . . 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him , that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been justified from sin. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 22 But now having been set free from sin and having become slaves of God, you have [two things] your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
lee_merrill
New member
Well yes, I would conclude he did this lest they turn back, the word "perhaps" is not in the text.Bob Hill said:
Yet, Pastor Bob, can we please continue the questions first raised, before asking other questions? Otherwise we will not have a discussion...
Except when his plan fails, and his expectations are disappointed, though?Bob Hill said:
Open Theism does try and have this both ways...
And [you have skipped my question again here] if his plans do not always turn out well, then we need not always trust God's counsel, is this not correct?
Thus it will not always be best to follow the Lord's leading, events might turn out better with another choice, even from God's perspective.
I do believe that believers can really choose within God's will, and there is real freedom in Christ, so this means God does not make every decision.Bob Hill said:
Blessings,
Lee
elected4ever
New member
You are no longer in the service of sin. Sin was our master and we served sin. With or without the law. Now we are in the service of righteousness. We serve righteousness. There is no freedom to choose to continue in sin. We cannot serve sin Our service to sin has been eliminated and our service to righteousness is established. We do not have the choice not to serve righteousness.Bob Hill said:
When we were under law, we were require to keep all things written in the law or the law would execute judgement upon us which it did and brought forth our death. Our future expectation then was eternal death. Jesus experienced that death for us thereby fulfilling that which was required of us by the law. Now the requirements of the law have been satisfied that we should not experience the death that Jesus gave Himself to satisfy. We are no longer held in the requirements of the law (slavery) having been set free from those requirements by the blood of Christ. We have died to the law in its application and in its judgements. There was never any choice for mortal man to live righteously because he was sold into sin and indeed was the servant of sin. So much for your freedom to not sin That was not a choice that could be made by mortal man.
Sin was in the world before the law and man was dead and a slave to sin before the law. The law was given so that the sinfulness of man would be exposed. The law, once given, exposed the sin of man and became exceeding sinful and the law judged him and convicted him of his sinful state and imposed upon him the sentence of death.
Israel was given the law as a demonstration to the fact that even though they had the law they could not keep it. The law demonstrated the sinfulness of Israel. The law was never given for salvation but for condemnation. Once Israel had been condemned by the law a way was given by sacrifices and oblations to demonstrate the yet future sacrifice that would free them from the curse of the law. These sacrifices could never take away their sin but provide a temporary covering for there sin and each year the sin was remembered and new sacrifices would have to be offered. It was by grace through faith the Israel had salvation. Never through law.
The sacrifices and oblations were also part of the law but when those sacrifices and oblations were offered as a substitute for faith in the God that gave them, they were rejected. God did not wont there sacrifices and oblations but there faith and love in Him. God does not wont ritual but the person.
Just as we were the slaves to sin, now we have been made the righteousness of God. We do not possess the ability to choose to sin. We are no longer of the flesh but of the Spirit. We live in the Spirit not the deadness of the flesh. It is the quickening of the Spirit that gives our bodies the ability to do the good works of God. it is our Spirit that causes us to ask in the will of God that he may give according to His will. We are of the Spirit and not of the flesh because the flesh is not subject to the things of God and cannot be because the flesh is dead to God. We are in the world but not of it and we are as He is in this world. You cannot be as God is and be a sinner and sin.
patman
Active member
lee_merrill said:
I will never understand the S.V. thinking here, Lee.
Look around you. Look at your hands. What awesome tools they are. Look at the sky, and its height, the clouds floating in it. How they water the earth to keep us alive. Look at the sun in the sky, providing us with life giving light and heat. Think about the massive size of it. Look at the stars at night, billions of trillions of them proudly shinning, so many we will never see them all, we will never fully understand it all.
And God made all of this! With nothing but a word. He is so powerful, even nothingness obeys him, and becomes something amazing. With but a command, the incredibly complex world we live in was made by him.
What more power can you have than the power of God? If he can command the waves to stop at the shore, what more can h e command? He COULD command our hearts if he wanted. But his ultimate PLAN is to let us be free. In hopes that in freedom, we will choose him.
If God tries to help us choose him, and that plan fails, it is our fault. But yet the bigger plan is still in place. And you can still trust him. It is naive to think you cant trust God because he allows true freedom to exist......
lee_merrill
New member
Well, you can trust his intent, but not his counsel, if God's plan can sometimes be wrong, that is the point!patman said:
Blessings,
Lee
themuzicman
Well-known member
elected4ever said:
If you knew us, you would be one of us. :doh:
Muz
lee_merrill
New member
Hi Patman,
This is a really plain argument.
Blessings,
Lee
No, certainly they don't. But if some plans can fail, then we cannot always trust God's counsel, because another choice might turn out better, even from God's perspective.patman said:
So if the Bible says the Lord took away, then that is who did it? And then Satan only served the Lord's good purpose, with a bad intent, as the Sabeans served the devil's intent, not with an intent to serve the devil, but to serve themselves.
Foolish fellow that I am, when I read "the trouble the Lord had brought on him," I think it means the Lord brought the trouble. This argument OVTers say is extraordinarily complex and convoluted, and yet they only tell me it's a figure of speech or a manner of speaking [i.e. it doesn't mean what it plainly says] because the context says otherwise, only the context says the Lord took away, every person in the whole book says the Lord did it, and the Lord does not correct this, Scripture even says this. And yet they will deny this, and tell me a flat denial is all I'm going to get. I believe that, at this point! Sad to say.
No, what I meant is that the taking away involved sinful deeds, so then if the Lord did this, to say the Lord did cause a sinful deed, in your view, would then be blasphemous.
So then God made a choice when he saw these events happening, and to see a rock about to roll into a house, and not stop it, when you could, involves you in the consequences.
This is a really plain argument.
So this is a choice God makes, and then what happened to Job was chosen in your view to be allowed to continue, for this purpose. Then God indeed was involved in what happened to Job, he has responsibility here.
Blessings,
Lee
elected4ever
New member
Your right, it doesn't make sense. So why do you purpose such foolishness? It makes no sense to you ,Lee or mepatman said:
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