Adam

[clefty]

It had to be decided - was circumcision a requirement before becoming a Christian. Thankfully the answer was "No".

No it never was required of the GER...unless he wished to celebrate Passover too...

But neither were salvific...

Why thankfully?...I have seen people endure more pain for scarification, branding, piercings, tattoos, implants, plastic surgery...lol

Just dont think you can do it to be saved...you then got a lot more to do...

 

[iouae]

No it never was required of the GER...unless he wished to celebrate Passover too...

But neither were salvific...

Why thankfully?...I have seen people endure more pain for scarification, branding, piercings, tattoos, implants, plastic surgery...lol

Just dont think you can do it to be saved...you then got a lot more to do...

You are quite right.

I cannot get this image out of my mind...

Billy Graham has just made an altar call saying "And while the choir sings 'Just as you are', please make your way to the front to give your heart to Jesus. There I will say a prayer, give you some literature, and then you can move on to the circumcision tent..."

 

[daqq]

Apparently neither of you believe what the scripture has to say concerning the matter, including many passages, even many more from Paul, which have not even yet been entertained or posted herein. Your hearts must be circumcised or you are not true children of Abraham, therefore you are both incorrect about circumcision because you apparently prefer to see it as physical so that you can nullify the scripture as pertaining to yourselves and justify yourselves in uncircumcision of the heart and mind. It is as simple as that, and circumcision takes place in the "eighth day", so apparently neither of you have reached the "eighth day" point in your walk: but just because it has apparently not yet happened to either of you, does that mean it is not true? Messiah has become the Minister of the Circumcision. Either believe it or do not, and move along if you do not believe what the scripture says: for arguing with people who reject what the scripture says is wasted space and has now taken this thread down a senseless rabbit trail. Anyone who desires to enter into the commonwealth of the all Israel and olive tree of the Father must be circumcised: all of Abaham's children, whether home-born or purchased with silver, which is tantamount to blood in heavenly money. :chuckle:

 

[iouae]

for arguing with people who reject what the scripture says is wasted space and has now taken this thread down a senseless rabbit trail. Anyone who desires to enter into the commonwealth of the all Israel and olive tree of the Father must be circumcised:

Please don't get distracted because of me Daqq. I believe in circumcision of the heart.
Being a Bible literalist, I focus on the lines, not what is between the lines.

Thus I see no significance to being spiritually circumcised on the eighth day. Some say 8 is the number of new beginnings. If I were to make a stab at it shemini atzeret, the last great day, the eighth great feast day symbolises the new heavens and new earth. So being circumcised on the eighth day means being made new??? But please carry on.

 

[daqq]

Please don't get distracted because of me Daqq. I believe in circumcision of the heart.
Being a Bible literalist, I focus on the lines, not what is between the lines.

Thus I see no significance to being spiritually circumcised on the eighth day. Some say 8 is the number of new beginnings. If I were to make a stab at it shemini atzeret, the last great day, the eighth great feast day symbolises the new heavens and new earth. So being circumcised on the eighth day means being made new??? But please carry on.

Ahron had two "sons" cut away from him, (a "circumcision"), in the eighth day, (Lev 9:1 → Lev 10:1,2,3), displaying once again the principle of four generations to the first "age" of the man, (Ahron, Nadab, Abihu, Ithamar → Eleazar is the "new man" and next in reckoning for the genealogy though the priesthood is split between Eleazar and Ithamar), and as for Nadab and Abihu the typology is in the manner of the Prophets, for example Zec 13:7,8,9, which is carried over by the Testimony of Messiah into the new covenant when he quotes from this passage to his disciples in Mat 26:31 and Mrk 14:27. Four faces to the man: just as the Krubim, which are made of olive tree wood, (1Kgs 6:23, Rom 11:24, Jer 11:16-17), and overlaid with pure gold having been tried in the fire, (1Kgs 6:28, Rev 3:18a).

 

[daqq]

Ahron had two "sons" cut away from him, (a "circumcision"), in the eighth day, (Lev 9:1 → Lev 10:1,2,3), displaying once again the principle of four generations to the first "age" of the man, (Ahron, Nadab, Abihu, Ithamar → Eleazar is the "new man" and next in reckoning for the genealogy though the priesthood is split between Eleazar and Ithamar), and as for Nadab and Abihu the typology is in the manner of the Prophets, for example Zec 13:7,8,9, which is carried over by the Testimony of Messiah into the new covenant when he quotes from this passage to his disciples in Mat 26:31 and Mrk 14:27. Four faces to the man: just as the Krubim, which are made of olive tree wood, (1Kgs 6:23, Rom 11:24, Jer 11:16-17), and overlaid with pure gold having been tried in the fire, (1Kgs 6:28, Rev 3:18a).

Luke 20:34-36
34 Yeshua said to them, The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage.
35 But those who are accounted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage:
36 For neither are they able to die anymore, for they are ισαγγελοι, and are sons of Elohim, being sons of the resurrection.

The first age of the man therefore contains four "generations" which are likened to four "beasts of man", (Pro 30:11-14, Dan 7:3-8, Hos 13:8-11, Mat 12:39-45, Rev 13:2-6), just as there are four seasons in a full year: autumn, winter, spring, and the summer of your harvest, (Mat 24:32,33,34).

 

[daqq]

So not only do we see four generations in Adam until the "new man" Enosh, as shown here:

The following four generations concern four stages of a man in his first (mortal) age:

Proverbs 30:11-14 KJV
11 There is a generation [1] that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
12 There is a generation [2] that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
13 There is a generation, [3] O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
14 There is a generation, [4] whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, [Dan 7:7 - the fourth-generation "beast" - "great teeth of iron"] to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

Moreover the Master confirms this understanding in multiple places:

Matthew 12:39-45 KJV
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation [1] seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, [2] and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, [3] and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation [4].

This speaks from the beginning: Qain and his line, just as it was laid out for you in one of the posts requoted above herein, (titled "The Book of the Dead"). Qain is the prototype for the goat to-for Azazel with all the sins upon his mortally wounded head, sent forth into the dry-arid places of the desert-wilderness, that is, "the land of Nod" or wandering. But Moses warns, "be sure your sin will find you out", (Num 32:23, and that is why the goat sent away is not destroyed in the text, even though it did become a tradition to send it over a rocky-jagged precipice). So Qain comes back to his "house", (YOU, and there are no exceptions to the rule given by the Master), and he finds the house empty, swept, and garnished, (with new idols), and he goes and gets seven other spirits more wicked than himself, (the line of Qain as shown above herein). And the seventh, Tobal-Qain, brings forth Qain with pomp and fanfare: thus Qain is the eighth and of the seven, for he was the first which was sent away into the desert to begin with.

With this supernal understanding held first and foremost it is not difficult to see that there was plenty of time for many other people to have been born of the physical seed line of Adam whether or not "Adam" is intended as a single man or a federal head representing all of humanity.

Four Generations:

1) Adam
2) Qain
3) Abel
4) Seth

New Man ~ Enosh-Man

And Enosh is he that began to herald-preach-call out in the name of Yah the Elohim, (Gen 4:26). Thus, with the above supernal truths being held first and foremost, there is plenty of time in the first four generations for many other people to have been born of the physical seed line, but the point not to be missed should be this: the holy seed line of Adam to Noah, (and all the way through the entire record of the scripture), is not physical, but SPIRIT, because it is by faith and the hearing of the preaching of the truth beginning with Enosh. For the same reason Peter calls Noah "the eighth Preacher of Righteousness", (2Pet 2:5), for Noah is the eighth from Enosh, the first Preacher of Righteousness according to the scripture, (Gen 4:26).

Preachers of Righteousness:

1) Enosh - Gen 4:26
2) Qainan
3) Mahalaleel
4) Yared
5) Enoch the Prophet
6) Methuselah
7) Lamech
8) Noah - 2 Pet 2:5

But one may also see the four generations running through the entire, (Gen 5), Book of Life:

1) Adam
2) Qain
3) Abel
4) Seth
5) Enosh - the "new man", (Gen 5:6)

1) Enosh
2) Qainan
3) Mahalaleel
4) Yared - Enoch 1 - unregenerated, (Book of the Dead - Gen 4:17)
5) Enoch 2 - the "new man", (Book of Life - Gen 5:19-24)

1) Enoch 2
2) Methuselah
3) Lamech 1 - unregenerated, (Book of the Dead - Gen 4:18-24)
4) Lamech 2 - regenerated, (Book of Life - Gen 5:25-31)
5) Noah - the "new man", (Book of Life - Gen 5:28-32)

Moreover the same thing happens in the genealogy of king David as it is written that his first child by Bath-Sheba, ("daughter of seven", like the seven daughters of Yithro Raguel, "His Excellence Raguel", which moreover is also supernal and of a prophetic nature: for Moses married into that Elohim-priesthood by way of one of seven little birdies, lol, Tzipporah, Exo 2:16-21). However the child of David by Bathsheba died, even in the seventh day, that is to be noted, before the eighth day, because of the evil which David had done, (2Sam 1:25). Yet we read in that passage that another son was given, and that given is "natan", and is called Yedidiah, ("Beloved of Yah"), and is Solomon. Solomon is written therein because he is the "new man", (the next in line for genealogical reckoning). When one begins to dig deeper into the meanings of the names it becomes very clear that this entire record has heavy spiritual and supernal undertones:

2 Samuel 5:14
14 And these be the names of those that were born unto him in Jerusalem; Shammua, and Shobab, and Nathan, and Solomon:

1 Chronicles 3:5
5 And these were born unto him in Jerusalem; Shimea, and Shobab, and Nathan, and Solomon, four, of Bathshua the daughter of Ammiel:

1 Chronicles 14:4
4 Now these are the names of his children which he had in Jerusalem; Shammua, and Shobab, Nathan and Solomon:

1) David
2) Shimea - "hear the report", (2Sam 12:1-7)
3) Shobab - "rebellion", (2Sam 12:7-14)
4) Shammua - "renowned-devastation", (the child that died, 2Sam 12:14-19)
5) Nathan, even Solomon - the "new man", (also Yedidiah, "Beloved of Yah", 2Sam 12:24-25)

The son which had died in the seventh day is still counted in the four generations of the first age of the man. Nathan, ("given"), is therefore Solomon, just as it is written in Luke 3:31, and that is why the Luke genealogy includes "Nathan" instead of Solomon and yet still passes through Zerubbabel and Salathiel, (Shealtiel).

 

[daqq]

So not only do we see four generations in Adam until the "new man" Enosh, as shown here:

But one may also see the four generations running through the entire, (Gen 5), Book of Life:

1) Adam
2) Qain
3) Abel
4) Seth
5) Enosh - the "new man", (Gen 5:6)

1) Enosh
2) Qainan
3) Mahalaleel
4) Yared - Enoch 1 - unregenerated, (Book of the Dead - Gen 4:17)
5) Enoch 2 - the "new man", (Book of Life - Gen 5:19-24)

1) Enoch 2
2) Methuselah
3) Lamech 1 - unregenerated, (Book of the Dead - Gen 4:18-24)
4) Lamech 2 - regenerated, (Book of Life - Gen 5:25-31)
5) Noah - the "new man", (Book of Life - Gen 5:28-32)

Moreover the same thing happens in the genealogy of king David as it is written that his first child by Bath-Sheba, ("daughter of seven", like the seven daughters of Yithro Raguel, "His Excellence Raguel", which moreover is also supernal and of a prophetic nature: for Moses married into that Elohim-priesthood by way of one of seven little birdies, lol, Tzipporah, Exo 2:16-21). However the child of David by Bathsheba died, even in the seventh day, that is to be noted, before the eighth day, because of the evil which David had done, (2Sam 1:25). Yet we read in that passage that another son was given, and that given is "natan", and is called Yedidiah, ("Beloved of Yah"), and is Solomon. Solomon is written therein because he is the "new man", (the next in line for genealogical reckoning). When one begins to dig deeper into the meanings of the names it becomes very clear that this entire record has heavy spiritual and supernal undertones:

2 Samuel 5:14
14 And these be the names of those that were born unto him in Jerusalem; Shammua, and Shobab, and Nathan, and Solomon:

1 Chronicles 3:5
5 And these were born unto him in Jerusalem; Shimea, and Shobab, and Nathan, and Solomon, four, of Bathshua the daughter of Ammiel:

1 Chronicles 14:4
4 Now these are the names of his children which he had in Jerusalem; Shammua, and Shobab, Nathan and Solomon:

1) David
2) Shimea - "hear the report", (2Sam 12:1-7)
3) Shobab - "rebellion", (2Sam 12:7-14)
4) Shammua - "renowned-devastation", (the child that died, 2Sam 12:14-19)
5) Nathan, even Solomon - the "new man", (also Yedidiah, "Beloved of Yah", 2Sam 12:24-25)

The son which had died in the seventh day is still counted in the four generations of the first age of the man. Nathan, ("given"), is therefore Solomon, just as it is written in Luke 3:31, and that is why the Luke genealogy includes "Nathan" instead of Solomon and yet still passes through Zerubbabel and Salathiel, (Shealtiel).

Therefore, for those who follow the Septuagint genealogy-chronology, (just as the author of the Gospel of Luke surely does, for he includes "Qainan 2" in Luke 3:36a, which name is only found in the LXX-Septuagint version of Gen 11:12), it is not a problem that Methuselah is made to outlive the flood, by way of his age and the mathematical calculations in the genealogy, and in fact it more likely appears to be intentional, so that we may realize the supernal and spiritual nature of these things: for Enoch is Methuselah is Lamech is Noah, and Noah was therefore tamim, replete, complete, "perfect", in his generations, and Noah walked with the Elohim, (Gen 6:9). And this is moreover why the author of Hebrews states that, although Enoch was taken, and was translated or transformed, (Heb 11:5), he also died in faith, not having received the promises, (Heb 11:13, for "to see death" and to "taste of death" are not the same things, Jhn 8:51-52).

 

[clefty]

Apparently neither of you believe what the scripture has to say concerning the matter, including many passages, even many more from Paul, which have not even yet been entertained or posted herein. Your hearts must be circumcised or you are not true children of Abraham, therefore you are both incorrect about circumcision because you apparently prefer to see it as physical so that you can nullify the scripture as pertaining to yourselves and justify yourselves in uncircumcision of the heart and mind. It is as simple as that, and circumcision takes place in the "eighth day", so apparently neither of you have reached the "eighth day" point in your walk: but just because it has apparently not yet happened to either of you, does that mean it is not true? Messiah has become the Minister of the Circumcision. Either believe it or do not, and move along if you do not believe what the scripture says: for arguing with people who reject what the scripture says is wasted space and has now taken this thread down a senseless rabbit trail. Anyone who desires to enter into the commonwealth of the all Israel and olive tree of the Father must be circumcised: all of Abaham's children, whether home-born or purchased with silver, which is tantamount to blood in heavenly money. :chuckle:

Of course hearts must be circumcised before this act is allowed...ironic making it to occur the eighth day...how could an infants heart ever be circumcised?

The spirituality of circumcision is thus retained...it is not what you do but what you accept as having been done for you...just as it was NOT you that circumcised your heart but the Spirit...NOT you that killed your old self...but He did as it is “no one can come to Me lest the Father draw him”...

and not to save you BTW but to signify you are circumcised from the world its ways...

Other cultures also circumcise...it is also done for medical reasons alone...NOT SALVIFIC as it alone never did

 

[daqq]

Of course hearts must be circumcised before this act is allowed...ironic making it to occur the eighth day...how could an infants heart ever be circumcised?

The spirituality of circumcision is thus retained...it is not what you do but what you accept as having been done for you...just as it was NOT you that circumcised your heart but the Spirit...NOT you that killed your old self...but He did as it is “lest the Father draw him”...

and not to save you BTW but to signify you are circumcised from the world its ways...

Other cultures also circumcise...it is also done for medical reasons alone...NOT SALVIFIC as it alone never did

Good to see you are changing your stance: but what do you mean by, "Of course hearts must be circumcised before this act is allowed"??? Circumcision of the heart is itself, "the act", there is no other way. Physical circumcision profits nothing, and in fact if you do become physically circumcised, thinking that by doing so you can "join Israel", then Paul clearly testifies to you, (as already quoted and discussed), that you are a debtor and under obligation to keep the whole Torah in the same way, (the physical and carnal understanding of the whole written Word as taught by the rulers of the Yhudim and the Sanhedrin with all of their commandments and handwritten ordinances in dogmas of men), and Meshiah therefore profits you nothing because that is what his Testimony is all about, (which is the "new Spirit" of Eze 11:19, 18:31, 36:26, as also already discussed), for Meshiah expounds the Torah, Prophets, and Writings in the new supernal and spiritual Way. Here hear again from Reply#78:

Galatians 5:1-11
1 In the freedom with which Messiah has made us free, stand firm therefore, and do not again be held with a yoke of bondage-slavery.
2 Behold, I myself, Paul, say to you, that if you become circumcised, Messiah shall be of no use to you:
3 And I testify again to every man being circumcised that he is a debtor to perform the entire Torah [according to the same physical interpretations of the Yhudim].
4 You who are declared right by Torah have severed yourselves from Messiah: you have fallen from gracious-favour [grace].
5 For we, in Spirit, by faithful-trusting, eagerly wait for the expectation of righteousness.
6 For in Messiah neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but faithfulness working through love.
7 You were running well: who held you back from obeying the truth?
8 That persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.
9 A little leaven leavens all the lump!
10 I trust to you-ward, in the Master, that you shall have no other mind: and he who is troubling you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11 And I, brethren, if I still proclaim circumcision, why am I still persecuted? for then would the stumbling-block of the stake have been set aside.

And either way we choose we are a debtors according to Paul:

Romans 8:1-14
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Messiah Yeshua, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the torah-teaching of the Spirit of the Life in Messiah Yeshua has delivered me from the torah-teaching of the sin(s) and the death.
3 For what the torah-teaching could not do, in that it was weak because of the flesh, Elohim sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin(s), condemned sin to be [reside] in the flesh: [as per Romans 7, previous chapter]
4 That the righteousness of the torah-teaching might be filled up in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit:
5 For they that are according the flesh do mind the things of the flesh: but they that are according to the Spirit mind the things of the Spirit:
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is Life and Peace:
7 For the carnal mind is enmity against Elohim, for it is not subject to the torah-teaching of Elohim, neither indeed can it be.
8 So then, they that are in the flesh cannot please Elohim.
9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of Elohim dwells in you: but if anyone has not the Spirit [Testimony] of Messiah, the same is not his.
10 And if Messiah be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit is the Life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised up Yeshua from the dead dwells in you, He who awakened the Anointed one from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit dwelling in you.
12 Therefore brethren, we are debtors, but not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh:
13 For if you live according the flesh you will die: but if by way of the Spirit [the Testimony of Messiah] you mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of Elohim, these are the sons of Elohim.

If you choose to join "Paul's Israel", (which is the commonwealth of the all Yisrael and olive tree of the Father), then you too are become a debtor, that is to say, a debtor to Meshiah who gave himself for you, and a debtor to walk by his holy Testimony which is the new Spirit foretold in the Prophet Ezekiel, which is the new Spirit of the new-renewed Covenant.

 

[clefty]

Good to see you are changing your stance:

good to see you are understanding it better...

but what do you mean by, "Of course hearts must be circumcised before this act is allowed"???

well it is not like circumcision happens to people unaware...Abraham was old but not senile when His occurred so obviously his heart was circumscised (obedient) to the expected act of blood letting...to set him apart...

And yet you missed the obvious irony that circumcision does not save as it happens to infants...and unexpectedly for them...they did not choose for it to occur

Circumcision of the heart is itself, "the act", there is no other way.

see? you missed it...it is not the heart of the infant receiving the cut which is circumcised but the heart of the parent who obeys the command to have their son cut...

Physical circumcision profits nothing,

right as explained...it is not an indication of salvation but a desire for the recipient to be saved...

Nothing in the physical realm saves except Him alone...sacrifices do not remove sin never did Hebrews 10:4 but point the way to Him the goal...He does save

Flesh profits nothing...but the Spirit...it is not the goat released into the wilderness that is believed to takes away the sin nor is it the bread which actually magically contains the Christ...flesh (the material world)profits NOTHING...however acts in the flesh are a sign of obedience to an already faithful circumcised heart...

and in fact if you do become physically circumcised, thinking that by doing so you can "join Israel", then Paul clearly testifies to you, (as already quoted and discussed), that you are a debtor and under obligation to keep the whole Torah in the same way, (the physical and carnal understanding of the whole written Word as taught by the rulers of the Yhudim and the Sanhedrin with all of their commandments and handwritten ordinances in dogmas of men), and Meshiah therefore profits you nothing because that is what his Testimony is all about, (which is the "new Spirit" of Eze 11:19, 18:31, 36:26, as also already discussed), for Meshiah expounds the Torah, Prophets, and Writings in the new supernal and spiritual Way. Here hear again from Reply#78:

Galatians 5:1-11
1 In the freedom with which Messiah has made us free, stand firm therefore, and do not again be held with a yoke of bondage-slavery.
2 Behold, I myself, Paul, say to you, that if you become circumcised, Messiah shall be of no use to you:
3 And I testify again to every man being circumcised that he is a debtor to perform the entire Torah [according to the same physical interpretations of the Yhudim].
4 You who are declared right by Torah have severed yourselves from Messiah: you have fallen from gracious-favour [grace].
5 For we, in Spirit, by faithful-trusting, eagerly wait for the expectation of righteousness.
6 For in Messiah neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but faithfulness working through love.
7 You were running well: who held you back from obeying the truth?
8 That persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.
9 A little leaven leavens all the lump!
10 I trust to you-ward, in the Master, that you shall have no other mind: and he who is troubling you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11 And I, brethren, if I still proclaim circumcision, why am I still persecuted? for then would the stumbling-block of the stake have been set aside.

And either way we choose we are a debtors according to Paul:

Romans 8:1-14
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Messiah Yeshua, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the torah-teaching of the Spirit of the Life in Messiah Yeshua has delivered me from the torah-teaching of the sin(s) and the death.
3 For what the torah-teaching could not do, in that it was weak because of the flesh, Elohim sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin(s), condemned sin to be [reside] in the flesh: [as per Romans 7, previous chapter]
4 That the righteousness of the torah-teaching might be filled up in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit:
5 For they that are according the flesh do mind the things of the flesh: but they that are according to the Spirit mind the things of the Spirit:
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is Life and Peace:
7 For the carnal mind is enmity against Elohim, for it is not subject to the torah-teaching of Elohim, neither indeed can it be.
8 So then, they that are in the flesh cannot please Elohim.
9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of Elohim dwells in you: but if anyone has not the Spirit [Testimony] of Messiah, the same is not his.
10 And if Messiah be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit is the Life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised up Yeshua from the dead dwells in you, He who awakened the Anointed one from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit dwelling in you.
12 Therefore brethren, we are debtors, but not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh:
13 For if you live according the flesh you will die: but if by way of the Spirit [the Testimony of Messiah] you mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of Elohim, these are the sons of Elohim.

If you choose to join "Paul's Israel", (which is the commonwealth of the all Yisrael and olive tree of the Father), then you too are become a debtor, that is to say, a debtor to Meshiah who gave himself for you, and a debtor to walk by his holy Testimony which is the new Spirit foretold in the Prophet Ezekiel, which is the new Spirit of the new-renewed Covenant.

Well...close...circumcision was not actually OUTLAWED...Paul even circumcised poor Timmy not to save him but to prevent trouble with jews...

The issue was NOT “thou shalt not circumcise”...but circumcise NOT 1) in order to associate with jews...never expected in the OT...and B) in order to be saved...also not expected of GER (except to play along completely with Israel)

Not even Israel could bear that yoke- TO DO SOMETHING (ANYTHING)IN ORDER TO BECOME ISRAEL OR SAVED but they did so because they believed they already were israel/saved

However now in the NT both 1 and B were being expected by the judiazers of all the GER crowding into synagogues on Sabbaths...and the judiazers were wrong to do so...

BTW if we choose to “have to keep one of the Laws” even of the 10 we then HAVE need to keep the other 9 too agreed? That is Paul’s point...

WE DONT HAVE TO...WE WANT TO...and slowly we will as we are choosing to be led by the Spirit into doing so...

It remains however that we don’t/can’t keep the Law...IT KEEPS US close to Him our Savior...to Him...and His Faith walk...His Way

 

[daqq]

good to see you are understanding it better...

well it is not like circumcision happens to people unaware...Abraham was old but not senile when His occurred so obviously his heart was circumscised (obedient) to the expected act of blood letting...to set him apart...

And yet you missed the obvious irony that circumcision does not save as it happens to infants...and unexpectedly for them...they did not choose for it to occur

see? you missed it...it is not the heart of the infant receiving the cut which is circumcised but the heart of the parent who obeys the command to have their son cut...

right as explained...it is not an indication of salvation but a desire for the recipient to be saved...

Nothing in the physical realm saves except Him alone...sacrifices do not remove sin never did Hebrews 10:4 but point the way to Him the goal...He does save

Flesh profits nothing...but the Spirit...it is not the goat released into the wilderness that is believed to takes away the sin nor is it the bread which actually magically contains the Christ...flesh (the material world)profits NOTHING...however acts in the flesh are a sign of obedience to an already faithful circumcised heart...



Well...close...circumcision was not actually OUTLAWED...Paul even circumcised poor Timmy not to save him but to prevent trouble with jews...

The issue was not circumcised not...but circumcise 1) in order to associate with jews...never expected in the OT...and B) circumcise in order to be saved...also not expected of GER (except to play along completely with Israel)

Both 1 and B were being expected by the judiazers of all the GER crowding synagogues on Sabbaths...and the judiazers were wrong to do so...

BTW if we choose to “have to keep one of the Laws” even of the 10 we then HAVE need to keep the other 9 too agreed? That is Paul’s point...

WE DONT HAVE TO...WE WANT TO...and slowly we will as we are choosing to be led by the Spirit into doing so...

It remains however that we don’t/can’t keep the Law...IT KEEPS US close to Him our Savior...to Him...and His Faith walk...His Way

Please show me where I ever said anything about circumcising infants, and since you and I already know that you cannot, please stop acting and insinuating as if I did. It is not my fault you apparently cannot understand what you read. I never said any such ridiculous thing. You appear to be making up things as you go: I am not interested unless you actually have scripture to support what you say. However there has already been much scripture posted here and you do apparently choose to ignore it. I do not plan to just keep reposting the same things over again with every new page just because you do not wish to believe the scripture that was posted on the previous page.

 

[clefty]

Please show me where I ever said anything about circumcising infants, and since you and I already know that you cannot, please stop acting and insinuating as if I did. It is not my fault you apparently cannot understand what you read. I never said any such ridiculous thing. You appear to be making up things as you go: I am not interested unless you actually have scripture to support what you say. However there has already been much scripture posted here and you do apparently choose to ignore it. I do not plan to just keep reposting the same things over again with every new page just because you do not wish to believe the scripture that was posted on the previous page.

Slow your roll...troll...lol...just kidding

I never said you said anything about infants...

But when discussing circumcision we should include what it means that infants are to be circumcised on the eighth day...


Of interest perhaps:

In Genesis 17:12, God specifically directed Abraham to circumcise newborn males on the eighth day. Why the eighth day? In 1935, professor H. Dam proposed the name “vitamin K” for the factor in foods that helped prevent hemorrhaging in baby chicks. We now know vitamin K is responsible for the production (by the liver) of the element known as prothrombin. If vitamin K is deficient, there will be a prothrombin deficiency and hemorrhaging may occur. Oddly, it is only on the fifth through the seventh days of the newborn male’s life that vitamin K (produced by bacteria in the intestinal tract) is present in adequate quantities. Vitamin K, coupled with prothrombin, causes blood coagulation, which is important in any surgical procedure. Holt and McIntosh, in their classic work, Holt Pediatrics, observed that a newborn infant has “peculiar susceptibility to bleeding between the second and fifth days of life.... Hemorrhages at this time, though often inconsequential, are sometimes extensive; they may produce serious damage to internal organs, especially to the brain, and cause death from shock and exsanguination” (1953, pp. 125-126). Obviously, then, if vitamin K is not produced in sufficient quantities until days five through seven, it would be wise to postpone any surgery until some time after that. But why did God specify day eight?

http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=1118

 

[daqq]

Slow your roll...troll...lol...just kidding

I never said you said anything about infants...

But when discussing circumcision we should include what it means that infants are to be circumcised on the eighth day...


Of interest perhaps:

In Genesis 17:12, God specifically directed Abraham to circumcise newborn males on the eighth day. Why the eighth day? In 1935, professor H. Dam proposed the name “vitamin K” for the factor in foods that helped prevent hemorrhaging in baby chicks. We now know vitamin K is responsible for the production (by the liver) of the element known as prothrombin. If vitamin K is deficient, there will be a prothrombin deficiency and hemorrhaging may occur. Oddly, it is only on the fifth through the seventh days of the newborn male’s life that vitamin K (produced by bacteria in the intestinal tract) is present in adequate quantities. Vitamin K, coupled with prothrombin, causes blood coagulation, which is important in any surgical procedure. Holt and McIntosh, in their classic work, Holt Pediatrics, observed that a newborn infant has “peculiar susceptibility to bleeding between the second and fifth days of life.... Hemorrhages at this time, though often inconsequential, are sometimes extensive; they may produce serious damage to internal organs, especially to the brain, and cause death from shock and exsanguination” (1953, pp. 125-126). Obviously, then, if vitamin K is not produced in sufficient quantities until days five through seven, it would be wise to postpone any surgery until some time after that. But why did God specify day eight?

http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=1118

Again, you are utterly mistaken.
Timothy knew the holy scriptures from a babe, βρεφος, that is to say, an infant:

2 Timothy 3:14-15 ASV
14 But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Moreover no doubt likewise Paul went through the same, (Gal 1:14-16), moreover no doubt the Prophet Jeremiah, (Jer 1:5-7), and moreover the Prophet Isaiah likewise has some things to say about the same teaching. You do not even know what a babe is in the kingdom of Elohim? Are you yourself therefore still suckling and milking on mother Jerusalem's teets? Apparently so, (lol). When your own circumcision is accomplished perhaps you will consider it more perfectly, (for as it has been said and shown already several times now: Messiah has become the Minister of Circumcision, (a circumcision not made with hands)). In that day you will not need excuses from people like Dr Ham or Spam or Dam or whatever his name is: and it certainly has nothing to do with vitamin K, (lol).

 

[daqq]

Again, you are utterly mistaken.
Timothy knew the holy scriptures from a babe, βρεφος, that is to say, an infant:

2 Timothy 3:14-15 ASV
14 But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Moreover no doubt likewise Paul went through the same, (Gal 1:14-16), moreover no doubt the Prophet Jeremiah, (Jer 1:5-7), and moreover the Prophet Isaiah likewise has some things to say about the same teaching. You do not even know what a babe is in the kingdom of Elohim? Are you yourself therefore still suckling and milking on mother Jerusalem's teets? Apparently so, (lol). When your own circumcision is accomplished perhaps you will consider it more perfectly, (for as it has been said and shown already several times now: Messiah has become the Minister of Circumcision, (a circumcision not made with hands)). In that day you will not need excuses from people like Dr Ham or Spam or Dam or whatever his name is: and it certainly has nothing to do with vitamin K, (lol).

Actually I said that wrong. I should have said, (according to the typology), "Have you not gone back into the womb of your mother(covenant)?", which of course is Jerusalem of above, the mother(covenant) of us all, (Gal 4:22-27, John 3:4-5). Yes, the Master tells Nikodemus just as well as the rest of us: the answer is, yes, you must go back into the womb of your mother, (just as Paul, Timothy, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and all the rest of us are required to do). :chuckle:

The "Amen, amen" of John 3:5 is a double affirmation to the question which Nikodemus had asked in John 3:4, "Amen, yes Nikodemos," you must go back into the womb of your mother(covenant) and wait for Elohim to call you forth a second time into the glorious light of His Son, (born anew or born from above).

PS ~ And by the way, Jerusalem of above is the Mishkan-Tabernacle and that is why Paul quotes Isa 54:1 at the end of that passage, (Gal 4:27). If you look at the very next verse in the passage, (Isa 54:2), it is very clear by the language that the Prophet is likening Jerusalem to the Tabernacle. That means that "Jerusalem of above" being called our mother-covenant speaks of the Torah being our mother-covenant, and specifically the Tabernacle, which is why the author of Hebrews goes into so much detail concerning that subject, (the heavenly Tabernacle), for it is absolutely necessary for the faithful to understand in our journey through the Torah relearning everything according to the Testimony of Messiah in the Gospel accounts where everything is explained, (just as Nikodemus had to do and did, though he was an Archon and "the Teacher of Israel"). But if you do not "go back into the womb of your mother(covenant)" then how can you ever be called forth? or born from above? or circumcised in heart? Messiah profits you nothing just as has already been quoted and stated several times herein to you. If you wish to say these things are "non-salvific" that is your opinion which is not even supported by the writings of Paul.

 

[clefty]

Again, you are utterly mistaken.
Timothy knew the holy scriptures from a babe, βρεφος, that is to say, an infant:

2 Timothy 3:14-15 ASV
14 But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

And yet Paul still had to circumcise him...

Moreover no doubt likewise Paul went through the same, (Gal 1:14-16), moreover no doubt the Prophet Jeremiah, (Jer 1:5-7), and moreover the Prophet Isaiah likewise has some things to say about the same teaching.
You do not even know what a babe is in the kingdom of Elohim? Are you yourself therefore still suckling and milking on mother Jerusalem's teets? Apparently so, (lol).

circumcision was established long before Jerusalem BTW...before jews even...and never slavific

When your own circumcision is accomplished perhaps you will consider it more perfectly, (for as it has been said and shown already several times now: Messiah has become the Minister of Circumcision, (a circumcision not made with hands)). In that day you will not need excuses from people like Dr Ham or Spam or Dam or whatever his name is: and it certainly has nothing to do with vitamin K, (lol).

Abraham’s physical circumcision came AFTER his heart was circumcised...is why he had the faith and courage to obey at an old age to allow himself to be cut as a sign...long after he was already saved...set apart...

same as with Moses...

 

[daqq]

And yet Paul still had to circumcise him...

circumcision was established long before Jerusalem BTW...before jews even...and never slavific



Abraham’s physical circumcision came AFTER his heart was circumcised...is why he had the faith and courage to obey at an old age to allow himself to be cut as a sign...long after he was already saved...set apart...

same as with Moses...

Okay, so according to both Moses and Paul you choose death and will die. And it has already all been explained in this thread. We therefore simply disagree and yet I have a mountain of scripture in support of what I have said. This is called a stalemate and means that you need to find another thread since this thread is not even about circumcision unless you would like to explain how Adam was cut down in Genesis 1:1, (however, just so you know, I have already done that herein, lol).

 

[iouae]

Circumcision was given to Abrahams descendants forever. Gen 17:13
Circumcision was given to Gentiles never.

Since forever has not passed, Abraham's descendants should still be circumcised, as Ab was, except on day 8.

And we all need to have circumcised hearts, Jew and Gentile, all who follow God.

 

[daqq]

Circumcision was given to Abrahams descendants forever. Gen 17:13
Circumcision was given to Gentiles never.

Since forever has not passed, Abraham's descendants should still be circumcised, as Ab was, except on day 8.

And we all need to have circumcised hearts, Jew and Gentile, all who follow God.

Again, that is your opinion based on the physical interpretations of the Jews. Moses wrote and complied the whole Torah, including Genesis, and he tells you what he means by circumcision, and according to both Moses and Paul you also are choosing death: you, like Clefty and like most, simply do not realize that is what you are doing when you choose a carnal and physical interpretation to understand the holy, supernal, and spiritual Word of the Living Elohim who is Spirit. Again, no flesh will ever be justified before Elohim, and thus by your interpretation you nullify the commandment and make it void and useless. If you choose not to believe the scripture which has already been posted herein then find another thread and sow falsehood to your hearts content.

 

[iouae]

Again, that is your opinion based on the physical interpretations of the Jews. Moses wrote and complied the whole Torah, including Genesis, and he tells you what he means by circumcision, and according to both Moses and Paul you also are choosing death: you, like Clefty and like most, simply do not realize that is what you are doing when you choose the physical interpretation to understand the holy, supernal, and spiritual Word of the Living Elohim who is Spirit. Again, no flesh will ever be justified before Elohim, and thus by your interpretation you nullify the commandment and make it void and useless. If you choose not to believe the scripture which has already been posted herein then find another thread and sow falsehood to your hearts content.

I don't see how anything that myself or Clefty have said contradict the literal interpretation of scripture.

You Daqq obviously like reading between the lines, and that is why I have gotten a hobby as you suggested