Adam

[clefty]

Actually I said that wrong.

you remain entertaining though...

I should have said, (according to the typology), "Have you not gone back into the womb of your mother(covenant)?", which of course is Jerusalem of above,the mother (covenant) of us all

this sign of 5e flesh was made for a covenant long before there were even Jews...let alone a Jerusalem.

(Gal 4:22-27,

Abraham was circumcised the same day his first son Ishmael was...hmmmm that is before issac and Jerusalem yes? And not even with the father of those of Jerusalem...

John 3:4-5). Yes, the Master tells Nikodemus just as well as the rest of us: the answer is, yes, you must go back into the womb of your mother, (just as Paul, Timothy, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and all the rest of us are required to do). :chuckle:

you are right to laugh...nicodemus thought returning into a physical womb is absurd too...and could be witnessed...but He clarified reborn of the water of baptism and born of the Spirit not from a womb again...physical or spiritua as no one can tell where it comes or where it goes...so is everyone born of the Spirit...

The "Amen, amen" of John 3:5 is a double affirmation to the question which Nikodemus had asked in John 3:4, "Amen, yes Nikodemos," you must go back into the womb of your mother(covenant) and wait for Elohim to call you forth a second time into the glorious light of His Son, (born anew or born from above).

No such return to the covenant but “for Yah so loved the world” occurred before Abraham...”whosoever believes in Him should not perish” includes those before Noah even...

PS ~ And by the way, Jerusalem of above is the Mishkan-Tabernacle and that is why Paul quotes Isa 54:1 at the end of that passage, (Gal 4:27). If you look at the very next verse in the passage, (Isa 54:2), it is very clear by the language that the Prophet is likening Jerusalem to the Tabernacle. That means that "Jerusalem of above" being called our mother-covenant speaks of the Torah being our mother-covenant, and specifically the Tabernacle, which is why the author of Hebrews goes into so much detail concerning that subject, (the heavenly Tabernacle), for it is absolutely necessary for the faithful to understand in our journey through the Torah relearning everything according to the Testimony of Messiah in the Gospel accounts where everything is explained, (just as Nikodemus had to do and did, though he was an Archon and "the Teacher of Israel"). But if you do not "go back into the womb of your mother(covenant)" then how can you ever be called forth? or born from above? or circumcised in heart?

again...it has always been mercy rather than sacrifice from the beginning...as sacrifices never removed sin anyway...as heb 10:4 was reminding the OT readers...how could any before Sinai go back to the Jerusalem/torah covenant?

Messiah profits you nothing just as has already been quoted and stated several times herein to you.

profits nothing if you wish to think this cutting and any shedding of blood at all will save you...it never profited towards salvation but merely was a sign of those saved...circumcised hearts to obey the cutting of flesh which never saved anyway but remained a sign...

If you wish to say these things are "non-salvific" that is your opinion which is not even supported by the writings of Paul.

Paul did not outlaw circumcision as poor Timmy can attest...He did say it wasn’t salvific as always taught and canceled the the Work done by Yahushua because only He saves and those thinking that circumcision saved (judiazers) were silly to think so...and if they did that they best keep ALL the laws perfectly...not just pick and choose

but that is true for us who attempt to keep the law because we already are saved...and love Him and want to please Him

“If you love Me” He instructed “Keep My commandments”...I dare say He meant ALL of them not just pick and choose whichever...

we WANT to please Him Who loved the world from the beginning...the “mother covenant Jerusalem/torah” does assist us to do that...not to be saved but because we are saved as from the beginning He knew His who would chose Him His Way...circumcise their hearts to Him His Way...

 

[daqq]

I don't see how anything that myself or Clefty have said contradict the literal interpretation of scripture.

You Daqq obviously like reading between the lines, and that is why I have gotten a hobby as you suggested

You still do not get it: "the literal interpretation" is itself the contradiction.

you remain entertaining though...

this sign of 5e flesh was made for a covenant long before there were even Jews...let alone a Jerusalem.

Abraham was circumcised the same day his first son Ishmael was...hmmmm that is before issac and Jerusalem yes? And not even with the father of those of Jerusalem...

you are right to laugh...nicodemus thought returning into a physical womb is absurd too...and could be witnessed...but He clarified reborn of the water of baptism and born of the Spirit not from a womb again...physical or spiritua as no one can tell where it comes or where it goes...so is everyone born of the Spirit...

No such return to the covenant but “for Yah so loved the world” occurred before Abraham...”whosoever believes in Him should not perish” includes those before Noah even...

again...it has always been mercy rather than sacrifice from the beginning...as sacrifices never removed sin anyway...as heb 10:4 was reminding the OT readers...how could any before Sinai go back to the Jerusalem/torah covenant?

profits nothing if you wish to think this cutting and any shedding of blood at all will save you...it never profited towards salvation but merely was a sign of those saved...circumcised hearts to obey the cutting of flesh which never saved anyway but remained a sign...

Paul did not outlaw circumcision as poor Timmy can attest...He did say it wasn’t salvific as always taught and canceled the the Work done by Yahushua because only He saves and those thinking that circumcision saved (judiazers) were silly to think so...and if they did that they best keep ALL the laws perfectly...not just pick and choose

but that is true for us who attempt to keep the law because we already are saved...and love Him and want to please Him

“If you love Me” He instructed “Keep My commandments”...I dare say He meant ALL of them not just pick and choose whichever...

we WANT to please Him Who loved the world from the beginning...the “mother covenant Jerusalem/torah” does assist us to do that...not to be saved but because we are saved as from the beginning He knew His who would chose Him His Way...circumcise their hearts to Him His Way...

The two of you are proving yourselves to be the children of Sodom and Gomorrah, (and Hagarites, "O Egypt, great of flesh!", again, Eze 16:26 KJV), by the very fact that although you have been asked several times to get your own thread you still refuse to go away until you can force yourselves and your will on me here in this thread, and for what purpose other than to supposedly prove yourselves right and justify your positions in the face of all the scripture which has been posted? Howbeit this is the internet: you are never going to succeed in forcing me to agree with you and do as you do. Moreover I have already believed what you now believe: I know much better than to return to the error of the old carnal man ways. Moreover neither of you understand the legal aspect which utterly refutes your stances, and that is, again, because you either do not understand or do not believe the scripture.

Sarah is "Jerusalem of above" and Jerusalem of above is the mother(covenant) of us all", (Gal 4:26 KJV) and Paul clearly states that this is an allegory in the Galatians passage already referenced. He even goes so far as to liken the faithful to Isaac in the same passage. The two of you have essentially chosen to be children of Hagar, the flesh, of below, because you do not understand the allegory. Moreover, as well as Sarah-Jerusalem being called our mother(covenant), Abraham is also called the father of us all, (Rom 4:16 KJV). However Paul was already a son of Abraham by way of the physical seed line, but what does he say? he says that he counted it all as loss to know Messiah, just as Yohanan the Immerser taught from the very beginning: which is why the Elders, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Levites rejected the counsel of Elohim for themselves and refused to be immersed into the immersion of Yohanan, (Luke 7:30). Yohanan was essentially telling them that their physical seed line was worthless, and that they needed to start completely over, (Mat 3:9, Luke 3:8), toward becoming born from above, (for Messiah was and is coming), after having undergone his own immersion of repentance toward the sending away of sins: it is no different than saying, "count it all loss and start anew", (Mat 3:9, Luke 3:8), and that is no doubt the main reason why the rulers of the Jews refused his message as applying to themselves.

The legal aspect:

1 Corinthians 9:8-11 KJV
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

Does Elohim take care for oxen? or does he not say it altogether for our sake? For our sake, no doubt this is written! In other words Paul is sowing spiritual things, just as he says in the final statement of that quote, and yet the two of you are reaping physical things in your understanding of the doctrine because you apparently either cannot hear what he says or refuse to hear what he says. When therefore you read of oxen, in the Torah, Paul is telling you that it speaks primarily of people, not oxen. This is not a "one time, oopsy-daisy, well I guess I can let that one slide" opinion to be swept under the rug so that you may continue in your carnal understanding but rather instead means that you are now required to go through and relearn everything according to this principle, just as has already been said to the both of you from the scriptures previously posted and quoted.

Exodus 21:32 KJV
32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

The word for "push" in the above actually means "to but with the horns" or "to war against" something or someone, (it is also used in the same sense in Dan 11:40), but what is the ox in this passage according to the teaching of Paul? It is the "wild ox" of a person who "belongs to another master", and that is exactly what Judas Iscariot is in the Gospel accounts. And how does the Master himself teach on this passage? He says to "turn the other cheek" and let your rewards be in heaven. But if you but back and push with your own horns then do you not have your reward? just as the publicans and sinners who do the same? We read that the Satan entered into Judas when he betrayed the Master, therefore who is his master? is it not the Satan? And how does Judas betray Messiah? is it not with a kiss? and what does Messiah do? does he tell Peter to kill and slay so that they may get away and run to the hills or out into the desert like Theudas? Uh, no, in fact he tells Peter to put the sword away and heals the servant of the chief priest. The Master practices his own teaching and "turns the other cheek", and that means, legally speaking, that "the master of Judas" now owes the Great Master over Messiah thirty shekels of silver according to the Torah. Again, who is the master of Judas? that is the Satan, and suddenly the Satan is in debt to the tune of thirty shekels of silver, though Judas himself received thirty pieces of silver for his wickedness. The money in silver paid to Judas is blood money, (thirty pieces of silver), but the money that the Satan is indebted is in shekels, and the shekel is the money of the Sanctuary, and that means it is heavenly money: so it matters not whether you believe the Satan is a real and literal being or whether it is an allegory, the fact of the matter is that his legal standing is now suddenly from a position of indebtedness to Elohim Most High, the Father, who is the Head over Messiah His Son.

Genesis 17:11-13
11 And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant between Me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man-child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with silver of any stranger which is not of your seed.
13 He that is born in your house and he that is bought with your silver must necessarily be circumcised: and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Moses does not say that this speaks only of the male reproductive organ, and as already shown several pages back now, Moses tells you to circumcise the foreskin of your heart, (and again elsewhere, as also explained, that the Father will circumcise the foreskin of our hearts), for the heart is considered stone until it is circumcised, and when it is circumcised it becomes flesh: the sign of this very covenant in our flesh. Just because you think of the male reproductive organ whenever you hear the word "foreskin" does not mean that is what the scripture is talking about. We are purchased with heavenly money, thirty shekels of silver, which is tantamount to the blood of Messiah which was the price he paid for his Testimony, (which was why they killed him to begin with, not because of anything he did which they thought was evil, no, but because of his Testimony).

Therefore what I have already said to the both of you from the scripture is true:

Again you make the same mistake: either circumcision is physical or it is of the heart, including Abraham, so which one is it? Choose, because you indeed must be circumcised and Messiah has been made the Minister of "the Circumcision".

Romans 15:8-9 ASV
8 For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers,
9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, Therefore will I give praise unto thee among the Gentiles, And sing unto thy name.

Deuteronomy 10:16
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiff-necked.

Deuteronomy 30:4-6
4 If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, [Mat 24:31] from there will the LORD your God gather you, and from there he will bring you back:
5 And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and he will do you good, and multiply you above your fathers.
6 The LORD your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live.

And from the same passage, (which also Paul quotes in Rom 10:4-9, (already addressed)).

Deuteronomy 30:11-19
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? [Rom 10:6]
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? [Rom 10:7]
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. [Rom 10:8]
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; [Mat 12:33]
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Moses sets before the congregation life and good, and death and evil: life -vs- death, blessing -vs- cursing, and says, CHOOSE THE LIFE, that you may live. The Life is the Spirit, the spiritual, and the supernal understanding of all scripture. Moreover how do you know whether or not sometimes, when Paul speaks of "the circumcision", he is not speaking of those having been circumcised in heart? (for they have passed from "the milk of the Word" to the meat). You don't know because your paradigm-thinking does not allow for you to even have any reason to search for such things, and sometimes he does indeed speak of "the circumcision" in those terms: for in your walk with Messiah in the Word you are heading for a telos, the point aimed at, which includes circumcision of the heart, and Messiah is the Minister of that circumcision, and it is not a circumcision made with the hands of men.

But the both of you reject the Word.

 

[daqq]

Moreover the Satan is indeed an allegory for the carnal man nature, and therefore, to choose the carnal interpretation you both do choose Death, for the serpent was cursed in the very beginning to "walk according to his belly", which is the same way in which the carnal man "walks", (halacha), that is, according to his belly.

[14] And Yah the Elohim said to the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every wild beast of the field:
[15] According to your belly shall you walk, and dust shall you consume all the days of your life:
[16] And I will put enmity between you and the ishah, and between your seed and her seed: and he shall break your head, and you shall snap at his heel.

Job 2:4
4 And the Satan answered YHWH, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man has will he give for his soul.

Matthew 16:23
23 But he turned, and said to Peter, Get behind me, Satan, you are a stumbling-block unto me: for you savor not the things that be of Elohim, but the things of men.

Romans 16:17-20
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them that are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which you learned: and turn away from them.
18 For they that are such serve not Messiah our Master, but their own belly; and by their smooth and fair speech they beguile the hearts of the innocent.
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men: I rejoice therefore over you, but I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple unto that which is evil.
20 And the Elohim of Peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Master Messiah Yeshua be with you.

1 Corinthians 5:3-7
3 For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing:
4 In the name of our Master Yeshua, you being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Master Yeshua:
5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Master Yeshua.
6 Your glorying is not good: know you not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
7 Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, even as you are unleavened: For Messiah our Passover also hath been sacrificed:

Philippians 3:17-20
17 Brethren, be yourselves imitators together of me, and mark them that so walk even as you have us for an example.
18 For many walk, of whom I told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the stake of Messiah:
19 Whose end is perdition-destruction, whose elohim is the belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.
20 For our citizenship is in heaven; from where also we wait for a Savior, the Master Messiah Yeshua:

Titus 1:9-14
9 Holding fast the faithful Word as he has been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of filthy lucre.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Slow bellies, like the belly of a Nile Dragon, as Pharaoh king of Egypt: O Egypt, great of flesh!

https://kids.nationalgeographic.com/animals/nile-crocodile/#crocodile-teeth.png

:chuckle:

 

[Wick Stick]

Moses wrote and complied the whole Torah, including Genesis...

Unlikely. Textual criticism isn't without faults, but it also makes valid points. Multiple authorship in the Torah is almost certain. Two things...

1. Israel vs. Judah. The histories of the two nations in the Bible is split, subsequent to the book of Judges. That is, Kings and Chronicles have the same information, but one from the perspective of the southern kingdom, and the other from the northern. An honest reading of Genesis-Numbers will show that there is a duplication of history here, as well. The upshot is that it appears that the two nations had separate histories, and someone edited them back together when they created the Torah.

2. Deuteronomy vs. Genesis-Numbers. Deuteronomy is completely different from the other books. Genesis-Numbers is arranged into the toledoth, labeled with colophon statements; it is arranged chronologically. Deuteronomy is arranged according to a dichotomy between blessings and cursings, Ebal and Gerizim.
Gen-Num is written as a history. Deuteronomy is written as from a prophet delivering a message. Gen-Num looks back. Deuteronomy looks forward.

It appears to me that the only book which Moses personally had a hand in, was Deuteronomy. The timing of the combination of the histories and re-organization into the toledoth can be ascertained simply by looking at when the books split. That demands a time period in which Moses was no longer around.

 

[daqq]

Unlikely. Textual criticism isn't without faults, but it also makes valid points. Multiple authorship in the Torah is almost certain. Two things...

1. Israel vs. Judah. The histories of the two nations in the Bible is split, subsequent to the book of Judges. That is, Kings and Chronicles have the same information, but one from the perspective of the southern kingdom, and the other from the northern. An honest reading of Genesis-Numbers will show that there is a duplication of history here, as well. The upshot is that it appears that the two nations had separate histories, and someone edited them back together when they created the Torah.

2. Deuteronomy vs. Genesis-Numbers. Deuteronomy is completely different from the other books. Genesis-Numbers is arranged into the toledoth, labeled with colophon statements; it is arranged chronologically. Deuteronomy is arranged according to a dichotomy between blessings and cursings, Ebal and Gerizim.
Gen-Num is written as a history. Deuteronomy is written as from a prophet delivering a message. Gen-Num looks back. Deuteronomy looks forward.

It appears to me that the only book which Moses personally had a hand in, was Deuteronomy. The timing of the combination of the histories and re-organization into the toledoth can be ascertained simply by looking at when the books split. That demands a time period in which Moses was no longer around.

I see "Moses" for what his name means, ("drawn out" [from the water]).
(And the whole more like according to 4Ezra 14:20-48, Ezekiel 9:2, Acts 11:12).

So theoretically one might even be able to see the entire Tanach (re)written by one, Ezra the Kohen and Scribe, with the inkhorn of a Scribe at his side: and the Brith Hadashah likewise written by one, Yaakob haTzaddik, Kohen and Scribe, with the inkhorn of a Scribe at his side.

 

[daqq]

I see "Moses" for what his name means, ("drawn out" [from the water]).
(And the whole more like according to 4Ezra 14:20-48, Ezekiel 9:2, Acts 11:12).

So theoretically one might even be able to see the entire Tanach (re)written by one, Ezra the Kohen and Scribe, with the inkhorn of a Scribe at his side: and the Brith Hadashah likewise written by one, Yaakob haTzaddik, Kohen and Scribe, with the inkhorn of a Scribe at his side.

[MENTION=8899]Wick Stick[/MENTION], what do you think of the following possible reading?

Galatians 3:18-20 W/H
18 ει γαρ εκ νομου η κληρονομια ουκετι εξ επαγγελιας τω δε αβρααμ δι επαγγελιας κεχαρισται ο θεος 19 τι ουν ο νομος των παραβασεων χαριν προσετεθη αχρις | αν | ου | ελθη το σπερμα ω επηγγελται διαταγεις δι αγγελων εν χειρι μεσιτου 20 ο δε μεσιτης ενος ουκ εστιν ο δε θεος εις εστιν

"For if the inheritance is by the torah it is no more by the promise, but Elohim granted it unto Abraham by way of the promise: which therefore was gracefully added to the transgressions teaching [torah] until the seed should come which he promised, prescribed-ordained through messengers [the prophets] by the hand of a mediator: moreover the mediator is not one, but Elohim is one."

Add to this the statement from Acts 7:52-53 and you have "the messengers" being the Prophets, (as opposed to the supposition of literal "angelic spirit beings"), which almost implies that the Torah at this stage may indeed have been drawn out from the [living] waters of the messengers, that is, the Prophets. If you were Ezra in Babylon, in the time of the Babylonian dispersion, you might still have had some access to the Prophets and many if not all of the Writings, but perhaps you would no longer have the Torah because it was much less widely distributed and the Temple had been burned down to the ground, (and most all of the available Torah scrolls burned up with it). If you had enough of the Prophets and the Writings you might well be able to reconstruct the Torah from those writings and from what was left in memory, (and with the help of the Almighty by His Spirit). And think about this: you would be in a land where ancient cuneiform tablets abounded in all the so-called holy places, (creation stories and all, lol).

 

[Wick Stick]

I see "Moses" for what his name means, ("drawn out" [from the water]).
(And the whole more like according to 4Ezra 14:20-48, Ezekiel 9:2, Acts 11:12).

So theoretically one might even be able to see the entire Tanach (re)written by one, Ezra the Kohen and Scribe, with the inkhorn of a Scribe at his side: and the Brith Hadashah likewise written by one, Yaakob haTzaddik, Kohen and Scribe, with the inkhorn of a Scribe at his side.

I can't get with this. There are prophets, and there are priests. And there is great tension between the two! Ezra cannot be reconciled with Moses!

Ezra is a priest, and The Scribe. Moses is the greatest prophet of Israel. (Deu 34:10) The two are like generals on opposite sides!

In the Biblical paradigm of judges, plaintiffs, and defendants, Moses is God's litigator. (John 5:45) For contrast, priests purport to exist for the opposite purpose - to resolve conflict between God and man (though hardly one of them fulfils this purpose). The priests and scribes are at the hire of the kings. The prophets answer to God.

The moment of conflict begins at the base of Sinai, when the Jews go into apostasy and have Aaron make an idol for them at the foot of God's mount. Priests and prophets give very different accounts of this event.

The priests will tell you that after a little bloodletting, God delivered the tabernacle, and the sacrifices, and the pattern from the heavens, and the mitzvah to the Jews in mercy, and that by following the commandments there is righteousness and salvation to be had, and in sacrifice there is atonement and reconciliation. All of this you will find in Genesis - Numbers.

But the prophets will tell you that on that day, God delivered them over to a grand delusion (Isa 66:4), in judgment. Hereafter, they were sentenced to worship the host of the heavens, in pagan fashion (Acts 7), rather than the Creator of the host. The priests and Levites and the kings that Judah desired were granted - as a burden - in punishment (1Sam 8:5). And all this Moses foretells in Deuteronomy.

The kings and priests have their temples and tabernacles. But Stephen's testimony is that the Most High does not live in such places. The priests have their sacrifices, for reconciliation. But Hosea's message was that God hates sacrifices. Solomon would have us believe that the law brings life (Proverbs 13:14), but Paul testifies that the law works unto death.

Here is the conflict of Deuteronomy. Moses brings Judah and Israel to a place with two mountains, and makes them recite all the blessings of obedience, and all the curses of the Law. And he (fore)tells that they will inherit the curses, and be removed beyond Babylon. And they were.

So then, nobody can have Ezra and Moses. You will have to believe one side or the other. They do not agree.

 

[daqq]

I can't get with this. There are prophets, and there are priests. And there is great tension between the two! Ezra cannot be reconciled with Moses!

Ezra is a priest, and The Scribe. Moses is the greatest prophet of Israel. (Deu 34:10) The two are like generals on opposite sides!

In the Biblical paradigm of judges, plaintiffs, and defendants, Moses is God's litigator. (John 5:45) For contrast, priests purport to exist for the opposite purpose - to resolve conflict between God and man (though hardly one of them fulfils this purpose). The priests and scribes are at the hire of the kings. The prophets answer to God.

The moment of conflict begins at the base of Sinai, when the Jews go into apostasy and have Aaron make an idol for them at the foot of God's mount. Priests and prophets give very different accounts of this event.

The priests will tell you that after a little bloodletting, God delivered the tabernacle, and the sacrifices, and the pattern from the heavens, and the mitzvah to the Jews in mercy, and that by following the commandments there is righteousness and salvation to be had, and in sacrifice there is atonement and reconciliation. All of this you will find in Genesis - Numbers.

But the prophets will tell you that on that day, God delivered them over to a grand delusion (Isa 66:4), in judgment. Hereafter, they were sentenced to worship the host of the heavens, in pagan fashion (Acts 7), rather than the Creator of the host. The priests and Levites and the kings that Judah desired were granted - as a burden - in punishment (1Sam 8:5). And all this Moses foretells in Deuteronomy.

The kings and priests have their temples and tabernacles. But Stephen's testimony is that the Most High does not live in such places. The priests have their sacrifices, for reconciliation. But Hosea's message was that God hates sacrifices. Solomon would have us believe that the law brings life (Proverbs 13:14), but Paul testifies that the law works unto death.

Here is the conflict of Deuteronomy. Moses brings Judah and Israel to a place with two mountains, and makes them recite all the blessings of obedience, and all the curses of the Law. And he (fore)tells that they will inherit the curses, and be removed beyond Babylon. And they were.

So then, nobody can have Ezra and Moses. You will have to believe one side or the other. They do not agree.

Lol, I did not say Ezra is or was Moses. Moreover Moses married into the Elohim-Melki-Tzedek priesthood by way of one of seven little birdies, that is, Tzipporah, one of the seven daughters of "His Excellency Raguel", (Kohen of Midian). The Priesthood of Moses is higher than that of Ahron. Who was it that Elohim told to anoint Ahron and his sons, and the Tabernacle, and all its vessels? It was Moses the Mediator-Kohen:

Deuteronomy 5:4-5
4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire:
5 I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the Word of the LORD, (for you were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount), saying:

Can you show me anywhere Ahron is ever called haKohen haGadol by Moses in the Torah?
The mediator stands between the Father and the people: just as Moses, haKohen haGadol.
(However the mediator is not one, but Elohim is one).

 

[clefty]

You still do not get it: "the literal interpretation" is itself the contradiction.



The two of you are proving yourselves to be the children of Sodom and Gomorrah, (and Hagarites, "O Egypt, great of flesh!", again, Eze 16:26 KJV), by the very fact that although you have been asked several times to get your own thread you still refuse to go away until you can force yourselves and your will on me here in this thread, and for what purpose other than to supposedly prove yourselves right and justify your positions in the face of all the scripture which has been posted? Howbeit this is the internet: you are never going to succeed in forcing me to agree with you and do as you do. Moreover I have already believed what you now believe: I know much better than to return to the error of the old carnal man ways. Moreover neither of you understand the legal aspect which utterly refutes your stances, and that is, again, because you either do not understand or do not believe the scripture.

Sarah is "Jerusalem of above" and Jerusalem of above is the mother(covenant) of us all", (Gal 4:26 KJV) and Paul clearly states that this is an allegory in the Galatians passage already referenced. He even goes so far as to liken the faithful to Isaac in the same passage. The two of you have essentially chosen to be children of Hagar, the flesh, of below, because you do not understand the allegory. Moreover, as well as Sarah-Jerusalem being called our mother(covenant), Abraham is also called the father of us all, (Rom 4:16 KJV). However Paul was already a son of Abraham by way of the physical seed line, but what does he say? he says that he counted it all as loss to know Messiah, just as Yohanan the Immerser taught from the very beginning: which is why the Elders, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Levites rejected the counsel of Elohim for themselves and refused to be immersed into the immersion of Yohanan, (Luke 7:30). Yohanan was essentially telling them that their physical seed line was worthless, and that they needed to start completely over, (Mat 3:9, Luke 3:8), toward becoming born from above, (for Messiah was and is coming), after having undergone his own immersion of repentance toward the sending away of sins: it is no different than saying, "count it all loss and start anew", (Mat 3:9, Luke 3:8), and that is no doubt the main reason why the rulers of the Jews refused his message as applying to themselves.

The legal aspect:

1 Corinthians 9:8-11 KJV
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

Does Elohim take care for oxen? or does he not say it altogether for our sake? For our sake, no doubt this is written! In other words Paul is sowing spiritual things, just as he says in the final statement of that quote, and yet the two of you are reaping physical things in your understanding of the doctrine because you apparently either cannot hear what he says or refuse to hear what he says. When therefore you read of oxen, in the Torah, Paul is telling you that it speaks primarily of people, not oxen. This is not a "one time, oopsy-daisy, well I guess I can let that one slide" opinion to be swept under the rug so that you may continue in your carnal understanding but rather instead means that you are now required to go through and relearn everything according to this principle, just as has already been said to the both of you from the scriptures previously posted and quoted.

Exodus 21:32 KJV
32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

The word for "push" in the above actually means "to but with the horns" or "to war against" something or someone, (it is also used in the same sense in Dan 11:40), but what is the ox in this passage according to the teaching of Paul? It is the "wild ox" of a person who "belongs to another master", and that is exactly what Judas Iscariot is in the Gospel accounts. And how does the Master himself teach on this passage? He says to "turn the other cheek" and let your rewards be in heaven. But if you but back and push with your own horns then do you not have your reward? just as the publicans and sinners who do the same? We read that the Satan entered into Judas when he betrayed the Master, therefore who is his master? is it not the Satan? And how does Judas betray Messiah? is it not with a kiss? and what does Messiah do? does he tell Peter to kill and slay so that they may get away and run to the hills or out into the desert like Theudas? Uh, no, in fact he tells Peter to put the sword away and heals the servant of the chief priest. The Master practices his own teaching and "turns the other cheek", and that means, legally speaking, that "the master of Judas" now owes the Great Master over Messiah thirty shekels of silver according to the Torah. Again, who is the master of Judas? that is the Satan, and suddenly the Satan is in debt to the tune of thirty shekels of silver, though Judas himself received thirty pieces of silver for his wickedness. The money in silver paid to Judas is blood money, (thirty pieces of silver), but the money that the Satan is indebted is in shekels, and the shekel is the money of the Sanctuary, and that means it is heavenly money: so it matters not whether you believe the Satan is a real and literal being or whether it is an allegory, the fact of the matter is that his legal standing is now suddenly from a position of indebtedness to Elohim Most High, the Father, who is the Head over Messiah His Son.

Genesis 17:11-13
11 And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant between Me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man-child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with silver of any stranger which is not of your seed.
13 He that is born in your house and he that is bought with your silver must necessarily be circumcised: and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Moses does not say that this speaks only of the male reproductive organ, and as already shown several pages back now, Moses tells you to circumcise the foreskin of your heart, (and again elsewhere, as also explained, that the Father will circumcise the foreskin of our hearts), for the heart is considered stone until it is circumcised, and when it is circumcised it becomes flesh: the sign of this very covenant in our flesh. Just because you think of the male reproductive organ whenever you hear the word "foreskin" does not mean that is what the scripture is talking about. We are purchased with heavenly money, thirty shekels of silver, which is tantamount to the blood of Messiah which was the price he paid for his Testimony, (which was why they killed him to begin with, not because of anything he did which they thought was evil, no, but because of his Testimony).

Therefore what I have already said to the both of you from the scripture is true:



But the both of you reject the Word.

That circumcision is an act done to infants proves it cannot save...it remains a sign of spiritual matters...

Circumcision of an infant especially can not save as it is not the circumcised heart of the infant but of the parents...they wish this to occur...

It remains...rather mercy than sacrifice...sacrifice never saved as it never removed sin...

hearts must be circumcised before the flesh...hence the sign of obedience

Paul never abolished circumcision just as he did not make void His work circumcision Timothy...

 

[daqq]

That circumcision is an act done to infants proves it cannot save...it remains a sign of spiritual matters...

Circumcision of an infant especially can not save as it is not the circumcised heart of the infant but of the parents...they wish this to occur...

It remains...rather mercy than sacrifice...sacrifice never saved as it never removed sin...

hearts must be circumcised before the flesh...hence the sign of obedience

Paul never abolished circumcision just as he did not make void His work circumcision Timothy...

Circumcision is of the heart only. If you think it is also of the flesh you choose death and subvert the truth. If you have not gone back into the womb of your mother(covenant) and are not in the process of relearning everything according to the Testimony of Messiah, in the new supernal and spiritual way, you cannot be called out from the womb of your mother(covenant) just as Paul likewise teaches by the example of himself in the statement already shown to you. If you are not called from the womb of your mother(covenant) Jerusalem of above then you cannot have a circumcised heart because you have not yet been born from above.

"Have you not gone back into the womb of your mother(covenant)?", which of course is Jerusalem of above, the mother(covenant) of us all, (Gal 4:22-27, John 3:4-5). Yes, the Master tells Nikodemus just as well as the rest of us: the answer is, yes, you must go back into the womb of your mother, (just as Paul, Timothy, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and all the rest of us are required to do). :chuckle:

The "Amen, amen" of John 3:5 is a double affirmation to the question which Nikodemus had asked in John 3:4, "Amen, yes Nikodemos," you must go back into the womb of your mother(covenant) and wait for Elohim to call you forth a second time into the glorious light of His Son, (born anew or born from above).

PS ~ And by the way, Jerusalem of above is the Mishkan-Tabernacle and that is why Paul quotes Isa 54:1 at the end of that passage, (Gal 4:27). If you look at the very next verse in the passage, (Isa 54:2), it is very clear by the language that the Prophet is likening Jerusalem to the Tabernacle. That means that "Jerusalem of above" being called our mother-covenant speaks of the Torah being our mother-covenant, and specifically the Tabernacle, which is why the author of Hebrews goes into so much detail concerning that subject, (the heavenly Tabernacle), for it is absolutely necessary for the faithful to understand in our journey through the Torah relearning everything according to the Testimony of Messiah in the Gospel accounts where everything is explained, (just as Nikodemus had to do and did, though he was an Archon and "the Teacher of Israel"). But if you do not "go back into the womb of your mother(covenant)" then how can you ever be called forth? or born from above? or circumcised in heart? Messiah profits you nothing just as has already been quoted and stated several times herein to you. If you wish to say these things are "non-salvific" that is your opinion which is not even supported by the writings of Paul.

The answer to Nikodemus begins with "Amen, amen", which is a double affirmation, and therefore means, "Yes! amen, you can go back into the womb of your mother and be regenerated-reborn", for that was the question which Nikodemus had asked. Only then what follows in the passage goes into what the Master says after the initial response to the question. Nikodemus also clearly understood this response, it was an eye-opening event where Nikodemus understood who his mother was in this context, (again, Jerusalem of above is the mother-covenant of us all as Paul himself explains in Gal 4:22-31). Therefore Nikodemus understood that it was necessary for him to go back and relearn the entire primary covenant in the new light of the Testimony of the Master, and he surely did, for no Pharisee Archon Teacher of the people would defile himself with a dead body during the week of Pesach-Matzot, knowing that he would be legally and ceremonially defiled for seven days, unless he truly loved that one who had died, (John 19:39-40). And Paul teaches the same and means the same when he states the following as already brought to your attention several times now:

Galatians 1:13-17 KJV
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

The womb of his mother in this case is no doubt Jerusalem of above and he means the same when he makes the similar statement to Timothy in the following passage also already noted:

2 Timothy 3:15 ASV
14 But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

That is to say, "from a babe, from the time when Elohim called you forth from the womb of your mother", Jerusalem of above, which is our primary mother-covenant, the mother-covenant of us all; it is the same allegory of the two covenants from Galatians 4:22-31. The two covenants are really the same primary covenant but viewed through two different sets of eyes: those who see all things according to the eyes and mind of the natural carnal man of the flesh, just as the Sadducees, Pharisees, and rulers of the Jews did at the advent of Messiah and mostly still do to this day: and the other are those who rather see through the lenses of the new Spirit foretold in Ezekiel 11:19, 18:31, and 36:26, which is the new Spirit-Testimony of Messiah in the Gospel accounts, (for his Testimony is Spirit), and which expounds the Torah and Prophets to the full so that we might walk in those things in the new supernal and spiritual way taught by Messiah, becoming pleasing to the Father by way of the Testimony of His Son.

Rather than, "How can these things be", the response of Nikodemus is more appropriately, "How is it possible for these things to come to pass?" In other words he is not disbelieving but wondering how it is possible. And while the Master does say to him, "Ye (you all) do not receive our Testimony-Witness", it still does not mean that Nikodemus never understood because he clearly did and that is shown by his words, actions, and deeds, both later in the same Gospel account, (John 7:50-53), and at Golgotha, (John 19:39-42). Moreover the He and he are the Amen-amen in this passage, and that is why the Master says "we" and "our" in this same context, and Rev 2:18 combined with Rev 3:14 informs the faithful as to which one is the Son of Elohim and which one is a Son of Elohim:

John 3:1-15
1 Moreover there was a certain man from the Perushim, his name Nikodemo, Archon of the Yhudim:
2 This one came to him by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that you are a Teacher come from Elohim; for no one can do these signs which you do if not immo·El (El is with him).
3 Ι̅H answered and said to him, Amen-amen, I say to you, If one is not born from above the same cannot see the kingdom of Elohim.
4 Nikodemo said to him, How can an old man be regenerated-reborn? can he enter a second time into the cavity of his mother and be regenerated-reborn?
5 Ι̅H answered, Amen-amen, I say to you, If one is not regenerated by Water and Spirit the same cannot enter into the kingdom of Elohim: (thus the answer is, Yes, you can indeed go back into the cavity of your mother, (that is, mother-covenant, for Yerushalem above is our mother-covenant, Gal 4:22-27))
6 That which generates from the flesh is flesh, and that which generates from the Spirit is Spirit.
7 Wonder not that I said to you, You must be born from above:
8 The Spirit blows wheresoever He wills, and you hear His voice, but you have not known from where He comes and to where He goes: thus is every one being generated out of Spirit.
9 Nikodemo answered and said to him, What makes it possible for these things to come to pass?
10 Ι̅H answered and said to him, You are the Teacher of Yisrael and do not know these things?
11 Amen-amen, I say to you, We speak that which we know, and we testify of that which we have seen; and our testimony you do not receive: (for He and he are the Amen-amen)
12 If I told you earthly things and you believe not; how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 And no one has ascended into the heavens if the one who is from the heavens has not descended: the Son of Man.
14 And just as Moshe lifted up the Seraph in the desert, in the same way must the Son of Man be lifted-up-exalted:
15 That all who put their trust in him may have life aionion.

 

[Wick Stick]

Lol, I did not say Ezra is or was Moses. Moreover Moses married into the Elohim-Melki-Tzedek priesthood by way of one of seven little birdies, that is, Tzipporah, one of the seven daughters of "His Excellency Raguel", (Kohen of Midian). The Priesthood of Moses is higher than that of Ahron. Who was it that Elohim told to anoint Ahron and his sons, and the Tabernacle, and all its vessels? It was Moses the Mediator-Kohen:

Deuteronomy 5:4-5
4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire:
5 I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the Word of the LORD, (for you were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount), saying:

Can you show me anywhere Ahron is ever called haKohen haGadol by Moses in the Torah?
The mediator stands between the Father and the people: just as Moses, haKohen haGadol.
(However the mediator is not one, but Elohim is one).

Aaron is only ever called "the priest." Can I turn that question back to you? Can you show me where Moses is ever called a priest? It may exist; I do not know. A quick search did not turn up anything.

The pattern shows that there are always two anointed. Moses and Aaron. David and Zadok. Zerubabel and Joshua. The latter are priests, while the former are usually called judges or kings. All of the kings also have intercessory functions, and were allowed priestly access, but they also have other functions, and operate at a higher level, yes.

Just in case there was any doubt, I follow with the prophets, against the priests. There is hardly a righteous priest to be found in the Bible, while the prophets have the oracles of God.

 

[daqq]

Aaron is only ever called "the priest." Can I turn that question back to you? Can you show me where Moses is ever called a priest? It may exist; I do not know. A quick search did not turn up anything.

The pattern shows that there are always two anointed. Moses and Aaron. David and Zadok. Zerubabel and Joshua. The latter are priests, while the former are usually called judges or kings. All of the kings also have intercessory functions, and were allowed priestly access, but they also have other functions, and operate at a higher level, yes.

Just in case there was any doubt, I follow with the prophets, against the priests. There is hardly a righteous priest to be found in the Bible, while the prophets have the oracles of God.

There are two priesthoods running throughout, even in the New Testament: Annas-Ananus and Caiaphas are never called αρχιερεα μεγαν but only the Master is called this, (see Hebrews 4:14). Annas and Caiaphas are only called "chief priest" and that is one of the hidden reasons why the Messiah was such a threat to them, for they knew indeed that there are two priesthoods, and therefore, when the Master said the following, they knew precisely what he was saying to them:

Mark 12:35-38 ASV
35 And Jesus answered and said, as he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that the Christ is the son of David?
36 ​David himself said in the Holy Spirit, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.
37 David himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
38 And in his teaching he said, Beware of the scribes, who desire to walk in long robes, and to have salutations in the marketplaces,

In Matthew he quotes this passage to the Pharisees, herein above he quotes it while teaching in the temple, in Luke he quotes it to "certain ones of the scribes", (which are more often priests than not, for to copy Torah it was was required that the person be a Kohen), and they all no doubt knew this entire passage by memory: and since he quotes Psa 110:1, it implies the whole context, and specifically in this case, Psa 110:4. Thus they knew exactly what he was saying, even if the common people standing around may not have understood, and they knew it was a direct claim to the Melki-Tzedek Elohim-Priesthood, which is not the order of Ahron and his sons but the higher order of the Melki-Tzedek Elohim priesthood. And we know that Moses is likewise an Elohim, whether you want to say Elohim-Judge, Elohim-Ruler, Elohim-Mediator, Elohim-Kohen, it matters not because they are all the same. This priesthood does not descend through physical blood line and thus Yhoshua ben Nun is the next in line after Moses, for Moses laid his hands upon him, gave him the charge, (as did the Father give him the charge), and Moses was commanded to place Yhoshua ben Nun before Eleazar and all the people. The Elohim-Melki-Tzedek Kohanim Gadolim are Priests, Prophets, Judges, Rulers, Mediators, all of the above. Ananus plays the part of "after the order of Melki-Tzedek", but he knew that was not what he was: and at the same time Caiaphas plays the part of the lesser Ahronic Priesthood of the sons of Ahron, and that is why he is under the authority of Ananus. The Master was a direct threat to their own power and authority to govern and rule.

Moreover the fact that Moses is written to have appeared with Messiah in the transfiguration event gives more credence to what I say: for it legitimizes the holy seed line passing of the Melki-Tzedek Elohim Priesthood from Moses to the Messiah, (Moses "gave him the charge", just as he did Yhoshua ben Nun, son of Perpetuity).

Psalm 77:19-20 KJV
19 Thy way is in the sea, and thy path in the great waters, and thy footsteps are not known.
20 Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron.

Psalm 99:5-7 KJV
5 Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.
6 Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call upon his name; they called upon the LORD, and he answered them.
7 He spake unto them in the cloudy pillar: they kept his testimonies, and the ordinance that he gave them.

Why do the psalmists mention Moses first? It is the same old adage, "the elder shall serve the younger", but "Moses" cannot say of himself in the Torah, "I am the Kohen Gadol", (for he was meek and humble above every man dwelling upon the face of the adamah, Num 12:3).

Moreover the Most High gives this command not to Eleazar but to Yhoshua ben Nun:

Joshua 20:6 KJV
6 And he shall dwell in that city, until he stand before the congregation for judgment, and until the death of the high priest [haKohen haGadol] that shall be in those days: then shall the slayer return, and come unto his own city, and unto his own house, unto the city from whence he fled.

When you read of Yhoshua ben-Nun in the various texts you may notice that "ben" is always pointed as "bin", (though the letters are the same, בן). Why would they do this? are they trying to hide something? for it is not that he has knowledge of Perpetuity but that he is indeed a son of Perpetuity, being of the Elohim Melki-Tzedek Priesthood which descends through Moshe the man of the Elohim.

Numbers 27:18-23 KJV
18 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;
19 And set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation; and give him a charge in their sight.
20 And thou shalt put some of thine honour upon him, that all the congregation of the children of Israel may be obedient.
21 And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before the LORD: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.
22 And Moses did as the LORD commanded him: and he took Joshua, and set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation:
23 And he laid his hands upon him, and gave him a charge, as the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses.

Deuteronomy 31:14-15 KJV
14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation.
15 And the LORD appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle.

To "set" or "place" someone before someone else, and-or before the people, is not just temporal and physical, as if only "standing in front" of Eleazar and the people, no, but it also means his position of authority. Yhoshua ben Nun is set-placed-put before Eleazar in authority.

 

[clefty]

Circumcision is of the heart only. If you think it is also of the flesh you choose death and subvert the truth. If you have not gone back into the womb of your mother(covenant) and are not in the process of relearning everything according to the Testimony of Messiah, in the new supernal and spiritual way, you cannot be called out from the womb of your mother(covenant) just as Paul likewise teaches by the example of himself in the statement already shown to you. If you are not called from the womb of your mother(covenant) Jerusalem of above then you cannot have a circumcised heart because you have not yet been born from above.



The answer to Nikodemus begins with "Amen, amen", which is a double affirmation, and therefore means, "Yes! amen, you can go back into the womb of your mother and be regenerated-reborn", for that was the question which Nikodemus had asked. Only then what follows in the passage goes into what the Master says after the initial response to the question. Nikodemus also clearly understood this response, it was an eye-opening event where Nikodemus understood who his mother was in this context, (again, Jerusalem of above is the mother-covenant of us all as Paul himself explains in Gal 4:22-31). Therefore Nikodemus understood that it was necessary for him to go back and relearn the entire primary covenant in the new light of the Testimony of the Master, and he surely did, for no Pharisee Archon Teacher of the people would defile himself with a dead body during the week of Pesach-Matzot, knowing that he would be legally and ceremonially defiled for seven days, unless he truly loved that one who had died, (John 19:39-40). And Paul teaches the same and means the same when he states the following as already brought to your attention several times now:

Galatians 1:13-17 KJV
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

The womb of his mother in this case is no doubt Jerusalem of above and he means the same when he makes the similar statement to Timothy in the following passage also already noted:

2 Timothy 3:15 ASV
14 But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

That is to say, "from a babe, from the time when Elohim called you forth from the womb of your mother", Jerusalem of above, which is our primary mother-covenant, the mother-covenant of us all; it is the same allegory of the two covenants from Galatians 4:22-31. The two covenants are really the same primary covenant but viewed through two different sets of eyes: those who see all things according to the eyes and mind of the natural carnal man of the flesh, just as the Sadducees, Pharisees, and rulers of the Jews did at the advent of Messiah and mostly still do to this day: and the other are those who rather see through the lenses of the new Spirit foretold in Ezekiel 11:19, 18:31, and 36:26, which is the new Spirit-Testimony of Messiah in the Gospel accounts, (for his Testimony is Spirit), and which expounds the Torah and Prophets to the full so that we might walk in those things in the new supernal and spiritual way taught by Messiah, becoming pleasing to the Father by way of the Testimony of His Son.

Rather than, "How can these things be", the response of Nikodemus is more appropriately, "How is it possible for these things to come to pass?" In other words he is not disbelieving but wondering how it is possible. And while the Master does say to him, "Ye (you all) do not receive our Testimony-Witness", it still does not mean that Nikodemus never understood because he clearly did and that is shown by his words, actions, and deeds, both later in the same Gospel account, (John 7:50-53), and at Golgotha, (John 19:39-42). Moreover the He and he are the Amen-amen in this passage, and that is why the Master says "we" and "our" in this same context, and Rev 2:18 combined with Rev 3:14 informs the faithful as to which one is the Son of Elohim and which one is a Son of Elohim:

John 3:1-15
1 Moreover there was a certain man from the Perushim, his name Nikodemo, Archon of the Yhudim:
2 This one came to him by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that you are a Teacher come from Elohim; for no one can do these signs which you do if not immo·El (El is with him).
3 Ι̅H answered and said to him, Amen-amen, I say to you, If one is not born from above the same cannot see the kingdom of Elohim.
4 Nikodemo said to him, How can an old man be regenerated-reborn? can he enter a second time into the cavity of his mother and be regenerated-reborn?
5 Ι̅H answered, Amen-amen, I say to you, If one is not regenerated by Water and Spirit the same cannot enter into the kingdom of Elohim: (thus the answer is, Yes, you can indeed go back into the cavity of your mother, (that is, mother-covenant, for Yerushalem above is our mother-covenant, Gal 4:22-27))
6 That which generates from the flesh is flesh, and that which generates from the Spirit is Spirit.
7 Wonder not that I said to you, You must be born from above:
8 The Spirit blows wheresoever He wills, and you hear His voice, but you have not known from where He comes and to where He goes: thus is every one being generated out of Spirit.
9 Nikodemo answered and said to him, What makes it possible for these things to come to pass?
10 Ι̅H answered and said to him, You are the Teacher of Yisrael and do not know these things?
11 Amen-amen, I say to you, We speak that which we know, and we testify of that which we have seen; and our testimony you do not receive: (for He and he are the Amen-amen)
12 If I told you earthly things and you believe not; how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 And no one has ascended into the heavens if the one who is from the heavens has not descended: the Son of Man.
14 And just as Moshe lifted up the Seraph in the desert, in the same way must the Son of Man be lifted-up-exalted:
15 That all who put their trust in him may have life aionion.

And yet Paul still circumcised poor Timmy...

 

[daqq]

And yet Paul still circumcised poor Timmy...

Yep, but I know not why you say "poor" . . .

Acts 16:1-10
1 And he came to Derbe and Lustra, and behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a certain Yhudi woman who believed, but his father was Greek.
2 The same was testified-well spoken of by the brethren who were at Lustra and Ikonion.
3 Him Paul wished to have go with him: and he took him and circumcised him, because of the Yhudim who were in those places, for they all knew that his father was Greek.
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered to them the decrees for to keep, which were decided by the apostles and elders at Yerushalem.
5 Then indeed the congregations were strengthened in the faith, and increased in number daily.
6 And having passed through Phrygia and the territory of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Spirit to speak the word in Asia.
7 Moreover, when they came to Mysia, they endeavored to traverse into Bithynia, but the Spirit [Testimony] of Ι̅H suffered them not.
8 And having passed by Mysia, they came down to Troas:
9 And by way of a night vision there appeared to Paul: a certain Makedon Man was standing, beseeching him, and saying, "Cross over to Makedonia and help us!"
10 And when he had seen the vision, immediately we set a course to go forth to Makedonia, concluding that the Master had called us to bring the Good News to them.

2 Corinthians 2:12-13
12 Moreover, when I came to Troas for the Good News of Messiah, and when a door was opened unto me in the Master:
13 I had no rest to my spirit in that I had not found Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went forth into Makedonia.

You really have no clue what you are talking about . . .

2 Corinthians 7:13-15
13 Therefore we were comforted in your comfort: yea, and exceedingly the more joyed we for the joy of Titus, because his spirit was refreshed by you all.
14 For if I have boasted any thing to him of you, I am not ashamed: but as we spoke all things to you in truth, even so our boasting, which I made before Titus, is found to be truth.
15 And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, while he remembers the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling you received him.

2 Corinthians 7:5-6
5 For even when we were come into Makedonia our flesh had no rest, but we were afflicted on every side: without were fightings, within were fears.
6 Nevertheless he that comforts the lowly, even Elohim, comforted us by the parousia of Titus:

Ah yes, the parousia of Titus, (Acts 16:9), I wonder if that is Timothy's Greek father?
Would you indeed think to circumcise a mighty one of Makedon from a vision? (Gal 2:3). :chuckle:
I say to you that Titus will teach you like Gideon taught the men of Sukkoth when he comes.
Again, your flesh has blinded you: you have no idea what you are reading in the scripture.

 

[daqq]

So then, getting back to the OP, Paul boldly and plainly states that the first man Adam is the one formed in Gen2:7, and there is no way to get around this if anyone will truly believe what the scripture says and teaches. The only thing people can do is ignore it and pretend it does not say what it says: and that is to essentially deny the Word in favor of one's own private interpretations of the first two chapters of Genesis. The two creation accounts are not given in chronological order according to Paul, for he plainly says that the first man Adam is the one who was earthy, choikos, dust-like, earth-like, and became a living soul: and that is no doubt the one from Gen2:7 because he quotes what is written there in the Greek Septuagint. Moreover the Psalmist, king David himself, agrees in Psa8:3-8 and calls the Second Man from the heavens the Son of Man, for he speaks in the same terminology which we read in Gen1:26-28, that is, the dominion: for all things are placed under the feet of the Son of Man who is "the Second Man" from the heavens according to the Psalm and according to Paul:

The first man Adam according to Paul:

Genesis 2:7 KJV
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.^(1Cor15:45)

The Son of Adam, (Son of Man), and Second Man from the heavens according to Psa 8 and Paul:

Genesis 1:26-28 KJV
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Psalm 8:3-8 KJV
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?^(Heb2:6)
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.^(Heb2:7)
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:^{(Gen1:26-28, Heb2:8-9, 1Cor15:25-28)}
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;^(Gen1:28)
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.^(Gen1:28)

1 Corinthians 15:22-47 ASV
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.^{(Gen1:26-28, Psa 8:6, Heb2:8-9)}
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.
27 For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection,^{(Gen1:26-28, Psa 8:6, Heb2:8-9)} it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him.
28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do that are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
30 why do we also stand in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by that glorying in you, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I fought with beasts at Ephesus, what doth it profit me? If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink, for to-morrow we die.
33 Be not deceived: Evil companionships corrupt good morals.
34 Awake to soberness righteously, and sin not; for some have no knowledge of God: I speak this to move you to shame.
35 But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?
36 Thou foolish one, that which thou thyself sowest is not quickened except it die:
37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be, but a bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other kind;
38 but God giveth it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fishes.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul.^(Gen2:7) The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy:^(Gen2:7) the second man is of heaven.^{(Gen1:26-28, Psa 8:3-8)}

 

[daqq]

And in light of the above passages, and teaching from the scripture, the following two statements of the Master may become astoundingly clear to the one willing to hear:

Matthew 11:13
13 For all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan.

And regarding the Shabbat he says:

John 5:16-17
16 And for this cause the Yhudim pursued-persecuted Yeshua, because he did these things in Shabbat:
17 But he responded to them, My Father even until right now is working: and I work.

For all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan.