Adam

[Wick Stick]

Has this thinking helped in your understanding of Rom 8:11 and similar statements? (such as Rom 6:12, Rom 8:13, 2Cor 4:11, Col 3:5)?

It illuminates many verses. More than that, it opens up meaning for Greek words, where I perceived none before...

Ephesians 4:31
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

But the translators have given the signification to us already here. Literally, it ought to be...

Ephesians 4:31
Let all gall, and panting, and swelling, and crying, and blasphemy, lift off of you, together with all troubles.

Here, what we think of as bad behavior/thinking, is to the philosopher, a list of self-inflicted medical conditions. An excess of bile to ruin the disposition (bitterness). A lack of sufficient air to think straight (wrath). So much extra blood runs to the head that the face turns red and swells (anger). Excess liquid to the point it begins spilling out the eyes (crying). The corruption of the breath and words that are exhaled (blasphemy).

When the hydraulics get overloaded with too much liquid, the pneumatics aren't able to function properly.

Here's an odd bit to share - there's no word for lungs. Why not? They were considered part of the heart. Draw a picture of a heart... examine that shape... yeah, that's the shape of your lungs, not your heart. Besides, the breath was considered as something akin to an organ in its own right.

If so it makes much sense: for Paul would thus be speaking, (often), about transformation and metamorphosis, (perhaps like Enoch), as Messiah is "formed in us" in our walk toward the telos-point aimed at, (from mortal into immortality). But how can this come to pass if we refuse to mortify what is mortal? so that Messiah can "energize" our "mortal bodies" that we may live in/by/through/for him unto the Father? So perhaps one must first do the will of Elohim and put to death or "to sleep" that which is mortal and liable unto death anyways, (mentally speaking, a "state of mind" as opposed to literally chopping off our hands and feet, lol). I suppose that it could be said by such a one who is doing the will of Elohim, and waiting upon the Father, that the same is "In the isle of Ptoma by way of the Word of Elohim", (and by way of or through the Testimony of Meshiah). Oops, did I say Ptoma? I suppose I was supposed to say Patmo, (go figure, anagrams in the Prophets).

Yep, life and death are (mostly) not literal in your New Testament. (OR at least, if they are, the New Testament is the first zombie-thriller ever written.) What is called resurrection is most often the regeneration of the mind. Corpses are those who are unrepentant/unregenerate.

After all, Israel wasn't just dead, she was dry bones. Can they live? Of course. With just need a little water, we can re-enact a few births, and voila! some of these goyim can be born again as the new Israel. Just need to find the ones that can hold their water, and will breathe in the breath of God. (I assume everyone knows that learning is accomplished when one inhales the words that are carried on the teachers breath.)

 

[daqq]

It illuminates many verses. More than that, it opens up meaning for Greek words, where I perceived none before...

Ephesians 4:31
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

But the translators have given the signification to us already here. Literally, it ought to be...

Ephesians 4:31
Let all gall, and panting, and swelling, and crying, and blasphemy, lift off of you, together with all troubles.

Here, what we think of as bad behavior/thinking, is to the philosopher, a list of self-inflicted medical conditions. An excess of bile to ruin the disposition (bitterness). A lack of sufficient air to think straight (wrath). So much extra blood runs to the head that the face turns red and swells (anger). Excess liquid to the point it begins spilling out the eyes (crying). The corruption of the breath and words that are exhaled (blasphemy).

When the hydraulics get overloaded with too much liquid, the pneumatics aren't able to function properly.

Here's an odd bit to share - there's no word for lungs. Why not? They were considered part of the heart. Draw a picture of a heart... examine that shape... yeah, that's the shape of your lungs, not your heart. Besides, the breath was considered as something akin to an organ in its own right.


Yep, life and death are (mostly) not literal in your New Testament. (OR at least, if they are, the New Testament is the first zombie-thriller ever written.) What is called resurrection is most often the regeneration of the mind. Corpses are those who are unrepentant/unregenerate.

After all, Israel wasn't just dead, she was dry bones. Can they live? Of course. With just need a little water, we can re-enact a few births, and voila! some of these goyim can be born again as the new Israel. Just need to find the ones that can hold their water, and will breathe in the breath of God. (I assume everyone knows that learning is accomplished when one inhales the words that are carried on the teachers breath.)

Words of wisdom, and there are traces of this in Hebrew also like were Qain is said to be glowing, (with heat, his countenance as it "fell"). Moreover, as you probably know, pneuma is just as easily breath or wind as it is spirit, (same as ruach). Good examples of this are, for one, the two different ways of reading Jhn 3:8, for instance, see Jhn 3:8 KJV and Jhn 3:8 YLT which both read from the same text, (T/R), and render pneuma as either wind or spirit respectively. And a second good example is Rev 13:15, where pneuma is rendered variously as "life", (KJV), "spirit", (YLT), "breath", (ASV), etc., in different translations. Which translation is correct? All of them for the most part, and therefore I say, "Testimony is Spirit", for preaching is breath, wind, life, (if it be upright testimony), and spirit, (whether for the good or whether for the evil), and thus every "devil" has its doctrine: for the doctrines themselves are the "devils" which exit from the mouth, (like the unclean "frogs" of Rev 16:13), and not only defile the speaker, (Mat 15:18-20), but also defile the hearer who inhales them, (lol), or hears them, and consumes them, and believes them. The "prince of the power of the air" is along the same lines, the "spirit of the world", (and a deeper layer of meaning being the he-goat of Yavan coming from the west across the face of the whole earth without touching the earth, Dan 8:5, "prince of the power of the air", "Sar Yavan"). As for "holding water", the chest cavity is likened to a cistern, such as in Jer 2:13 where I believe it can actually be read as to say, "My people have hewn of themselves", (within themselves). The words of Elohim are on the breath of Elohim, the waters of Shiloah that flow softly, living waters.

 

[daqq]

:chuckle:

Not sure what you find worth a chuckle but please know that I am not pulling things out of thin air just because "it sounds good". As shown from the quote in the OP, Paul plainly states that the first man-Adam is the one from Gen 2:7, from dust of the adamah-soil, earthy, dust-like, choikos. Moreover the Psalmist, king David, informs us that the one from Gen 1:26-27 is the Son of Man, (Psalm 8:4,5,6,7,8), "from heaven", (1Cor 15:47 ASV), whom Elohim placed all things under his feet, (Gen 1:28). Moreover we know that Paul quotes from the LXX-Septuagint all over the place, (or at least a text that read almost exactly the same in his time), and as already shown on the previous page, those who rendered the Hebrew into the Greek LXX translated "tzaba" as "kosmos" in Gen 2:1. Therefore what I said in the latter portion of the post which you quoted is true: for the first two chapters of Genesis are not in chronological order, no, but the first man-Adam is the one formed in Gen 2:7 while the second man of Gen 1:26-28 is the Son of Man from the heavens, (according to Paul whom I know is correct).

And the Shamayim and the Eretz and all their tzaba-kosmos were complete.

John 17:5
5 And now, Father, glorify me with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the tsaba-kosmos came to be.^{(Gen 2:1 LXX - kosmos)}

Genesis 2:1 OG LXX-Septuagint
2:1 και συνετελεσθησαν ο ουρανος και η γη και πας ο κοσμος αυτων
http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/01_002.htm

 

[iouae]

I have no doubt that Moses intends that "Adam" repented, (tilling the soil of the heart), and thus the salvation of what is now the first chapter of Genesis.

I agree with you Daqq that God punished Adam and Eve intending that they repent.

The fact that Abel could have a good relationship with God showed that God was still accessible.

The lack of repentance and lack of desire to want to draw back closer to God by Adam and Eve is astounding to me, and no doubt God found it astounding too.

What is amazing too is that Lucifer managed to persuade a third of the angels in heaven that they should rebel and leave God. This is heaven, the perfect place, and these are beings much smarter than Adam and Eve. Yet the same Lucifer/Satan sold the fallen angels much the same way as he sold Adam and Eve by promising them something, like their eyes would be opened and they would be much smarter. Satan is a great (snake oil) salesman.

 

[Zeke]

The time part was humorous seeing our last encounter involved a disagreement about the validity of time once that mortal veil is removed from the Eternal mind Galatians 4:1, Luke 15:17 then all should be "Able" to claim John 17:5.

 

[daqq]

The time part was humorous seeing our last encounter involved a disagreement about the validity of time once that mortal veil is removed from the Eternal mind Galatians 4:1, Luke 15:17 then all should be "Able" to claim John 17:5.

Paul speaks from Olam Haba in his writings, ({1Thes 4:15-17 → Exo 33:4-6} 2Cor 5:10-11, 2Cor 12:1-5). However that does not mean that everyone who reads his words is where he is just because he is uprightly inclusive in his speech, (1Cor 9:19-23, Phil 3:8-12, 13-21).

 

[Notaclue]

Not sure what you find worth a chuckle but please know that I am not pulling things out of thin air just because "it sounds good". As shown from the quote in the OP, Paul plainly states that the first man-Adam is the one from Gen 2:7, from dust of the adamah-soil, earthy, dust-like, choikos. Moreover the Psalmist, king David, informs us that the one from Gen 1:26-27 is the Son of Man, (Psalm 8:4,5,6,7,8), "from heaven", (1Cor 15:47 ASV), whom Elohim placed all things under his feet, (Gen 1:28). Moreover we know that Paul quotes from the LXX-Septuagint all over the place, (or at least a text that read almost exactly the same in his time), and as already shown on the previous page, those who rendered the Hebrew into the Greek LXX translated "tzaba" as "kosmos" in Gen 2:1. Therefore what I said in the latter portion of the post which you quoted is true: for the first two chapters of Genesis are not in chronological order, no, but the first man-Adam is the one formed in Gen 2:7 while the second man of Gen 1:26-28 is the Son of Man from the heavens, (according to Paul whom I know is correct).





Genesis 2:1 OG LXX-Septuagint
2:1 και συνετελεσθησαν ο ουρανος και η γη και πας ο κοσμος αυτων
http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/01_002.htm

Rev.3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the 'beginning' of the creation of God;

the 'beginning' of the creation of God;


Col.1:12 giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light;
13who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;
14in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:
15who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
16for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto (into) him.

God created all things 'through' and 'into' his Son.



Gen.1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


God created the darkness in his Son.



Eph.4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;

5one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.


God is in All.


1 Jn.1:5 and this is the message which we have heard from him and announce unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.


No darkness in God.

God is in the darkness.


Matt.13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

in the kingdom of their Father.

No darkness in God.


2Cor.5:17Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new. 18But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation; 19to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God.

21Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.


Heb.9:27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


Peace.

 

[daqq]

Rev.3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the 'beginning' of the creation of God;

the 'beginning' of the creation of God;


Col.1:12 giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light;
13who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;
14in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:
15who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
16for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto (into) him.

God created all things 'through' and 'into' his Son.



Gen.1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


God created the darkness in his Son.

Not so: for the first man-adam caused the darkness when he transgressed, (Gen 3).

The Son of Elohim claims the name Arche, which is originally from Gen 1:1, (LXX).
The Arche of Creation is basically the same as "the Head", (as Paul says in Col 1:18).

Colossians 1:18 W/H
18 και αυτος εστιν η κεφαλη του σωματος της εκκλησιας ος εστιν [η] αρχη πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων ινα γενηται εν πασιν αυτος πρωτευων

Colossians 1:18 T/R
18 και αυτος εστιν η κεφαλη (the head) του σωματος (of the body) της εκκλησιας (of the congregation) ος εστιν αρχη (who is Arche) πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων ινα γενηται εν πασιν αυτος πρωτευων
18 And he is himself the head of the body of the congregation, who is Arche, firstborn from the dead: that in all things he might have the preeminence.

We know that the one who speaks to Yohanan in the Apocalypse and tells him to write, (concerning all of the seven congregations in Asia), is the Son of Elohim, (not "a son of Elohim" but "THE Son of Elohim", with the article, so there is no doubt).

Revelation 2:18
18 And to the messenger-angel of the congregation in Thyatira, write: Thus says the Son of Elohim, who has the eyes like a flame of fire, and his feet like unto burnished brass:

Then the Son of Elohim says this in the following passage:

Revelation 3:14 W/H
14 και τω αγγελω της εν λαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινος η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου

"η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου" = "the Arche of the creation of Elohim"

Moreover he says:

Revelation 22:13 W/H
13 εγω το αλφα και το ω ο πρωτος και ο εσχατος η αρχη και το τελος
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Protos and the Eschatos, the Arche and the Telos.

However Genesis 1:1, in the Septuagint, (as well as John 1:1), has no article with Arche:

Genesis 1:1 LXX-Septuagint
1 εν αρχη εποιησεν ο θεος τον ουρανον και την γην
1 IN ARCHE Elohim made the heavens and the earth.

Perhaps it is not so much "what" is (the meaning of) arche? but rather, "who" is Arche?

And according to Col 1:18 the Head of the body of the congregation is Arche, (no article also here, in most manuscripts and codices, as the W/H puts the article in brackets and the T/R and Byzantine text types do not have the article with Arche in that passage). And if these things be true then the Head of the body of the congregation is named in Genesis 1:1 and all things were made in-through-with-by-way-of him, (εν), and for him, (Adam).

John 1:1
1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος
1 IN ARCHE was the Word, and the Word was among the Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.

Colossians 1:12-19
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, who enabled us to be partakers in the inheritance of the holy ones in light:
13 Who delivered us out of the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of his beloved Son:
14 In whom we have the redemption-deliverance of the sending away-forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible Elohim, [Gen 1:26-27] the firstborn of all creation: [Gen 2:7]
16 For in him were all things created, [Genesis 2 then Genesis 1] in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things have been created through him, and for him: [because he is Adam]
17 And he is before all things, [Gen 2:5-7] and in him all things consist [Gen 1:1].
18 And he is himself the head [Reshiyth-Arche, Gen 1:1] of the body of the congregation, who is Arche, [Gen 1:1, John 1:1] firstborn from the dead: that in all things he might be preeminent.
19 For it was well-pleasing [to the Father] that in him should dwell the whole pleroma: [the whole Divine Logos-Reasoning-Spirit of the full Aleph-Taw]

 

[iouae]

For what was the first thing that happened when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Immediately "their eyes were opened", and immediately they "saw" that they were naked: they saw "the flesh" according to the flesh. Why did they not notice or pay any heed before that time? Because they did not see according to the flesh before the fall.

I don't believe in the fall of Adam as a generational curse. We all sin, so its our fault for our sins. There is no "the fathers eat sour grapes and the children teeth are set on edge".

Likewise I don't want you Daqq introducing a spiritual element into the fall. Nothing happened to their vision, either physically of spiritually after the non-existent fall.

They knew they were naked because the Serpent told them so. How do i know that? Because of God asking them WHO told you that you were naked. God knew they had been told - and Satan told them this to introduce shame.
Gen 3:11
¶
And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?

There was no mystical explanation here.

 

[daqq]

I don't believe in the fall of Adam as a generational curse. We all sin, so its our fault for our sins. There is no "the fathers eat sour grapes and the children teeth are set on edge".

Likewise I don't want you Daqq introducing a spiritual element into the fall. Nothing happened to their vision, either physically of spiritually after the non-existent fall.

They knew they were naked because the Serpent told them so. How do i know that? Because of God asking them WHO told you that you were naked. God knew they had been told - and Satan told them this to introduce shame.
Gen 3:11
¶
And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?

There was no mystical explanation here.

Of course there is no "spiritual element" or explanation according to those who walk according to the belly and the eyes and mind of the flesh: for they walk according to the fallen carnal nature of the first-man adam, blinded by "the god of this world". But as for what you said about sour grapes it has already been covered on the previous page: the reason that excuse is no more acceptable is because the Last Adam has come, and you yourself have his Testimony which you can either choose to walk in or ignore. Moreover he tells you how to die, and because you have sinned just as we all, your soul must therefore die: so get to dying, for just as the scripture says and you apparently agree, the soul that sins shall die. My advice would be to divide your dominion up into twelve portions and shepherd them with a rod of iron, (Torah), yeah, chop your soul up into twelve portions so that you may be seated on twelve thrones ruling the tribes under the authority of Messiah and his Testimony, (for Messiah is the Savior of the body, it is a body-temple analogy). :chuckle:

John 17:5
5 And now, Father, glorify me with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the tsaba-kosmos came to be.^{(Gen 2:1 LXX - kosmos)}

Meshiah takes on the seed of Adam just as he took on the seed of Abraham, (Heb 2:16).
Meshiah takes back Gan Eden and crushes the head of the serpent, (Gen 3:15).

Therefore the false doctrine of "Original Sin" is declared anathema and strictly forbidden in the Prophets, and especially in the new covenant, (the ban on this doctrine is found in the new covenant language of Jeremiah 31), for of old time this same teaching which is now so prevalent in modern times was also taught in Israel by a proverb, which said, "The fathers, (that is, Adam in the sense of mankind), ate a sour grape: the children's teeth are set on edge!" And this proverb was to say that the sins of the fathers were believed to have been passed down to their children, (just as the modern totally depraved doctrine of "Original Sin" teaches).

Ezekiel 18:1-4 KJV
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 KJV
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Jeremiah 31:29-34 KJV
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Hebrews 8:6-12 KJV
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:^{(Jer 31:31)}
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.^{(Jer 31:32)}
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:^{(Jer 31:33)}
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.^{(Jer 31:34)}
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.^{(Jer 31:34)}

The new covenant is in the now, (for those who will receive it), and the Most High says that the Original Sin doctrine is not allowed, forbidden, banned, anathema, "As I live, says Adonai YHWH", (Eze 18:3).

Moreover the Nazarite vow and the book of 1Enoch, (Enoch 31:3-5), are the source texts for the idea that the forbidden fruit was a type of grape that grew on what is called a vinetree. In other words even the Nazarite vow of the Torah has a deeper supernal and spiritual application because the deeper layer of meaning is abstention from sin. Meshiah the Nazarene shows the Way to regain Eden, for the tree was a vinetree and its fruit like that of the grape, ("ets ha-gephen", Num 6:4 KJV, Eze 15:2 KJV, Eze 15:6 KJV), and of course that grape is "sour", (Eze 18:2-3, Jer 31:29-31, ("the sting of death")).

Enoch 31:1-5 (http://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-31/)
1 After these things, surveying the entrances of the north, above the mountains, I perceived seven mountains replete with pure nard, odoriferous trees, cinnamon and papyrus.
2 From thence I passed on above the summits of those mountains to some distance eastwards, and went over the Erythræan sea. And when I was advanced far beyond it, I passed along above the angel Zateel, and arrived at the garden of righteousness. In this garden I beheld, among other trees, some which were numerous and large, and which flourished there.
3 Their fragrance was agreeable and powerful, and their appearance both varied and elegant. The tree of knowledge also was there, of which if any one eats, he becomes endowed with great wisdom.
4 It was like a species of the tamarind tree, bearing fruit which resembled grapes extremely fine; and its fragrance extended to a considerable distance. I exclaimed, How beautiful is this tree, and how delightful is its appearance!
5 Then holy Raphael, an angel who was with me, answered and said, This is the tree of knowledge, of which thy ancient father and thy aged mother ate, who were before thee; and who, obtaining knowledge, their eyes being opened, and knowing themselves to be naked, were expelled from the garden.

So Paul says, "Death reigned from Adam until Moses", (Rom 5:14).
But why only until Moses? . . .

For we see in the transfiguration accounts that, even before Golgotha, Moses lives, (though he died).

Judges 19:1-29 is an allegory: the concubine is "like unto his own soul", but she sinned and played the harlot, and later died at the hands of men of Gibeah-Benjamin who were like the men of Sodom. So the Levite took his concubine who was like unto his own soul and cut her up into twelve pieces, Judges 19:29, (and there was no king over Israel at that time, Judges 19:1, so the twelve districts or portions of Israel are like twelve thrones).

Matthew 16:24-26
24 Then Yeshua said to his disciples, If anyone desires to come after me, let him utterly disown himself, and take up his stake, and follow me.
25 For whoever desires to save his soul shall apollumi-destroy her, and whoever shall apollumi-destroy his soul for my sake shall find her.
26 For what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Luke 14:26-27
26 If anyone comes unto me, and hates not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, even his own soul also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 Whosoever does not bear his own stake, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

 

[iouae]

Of course there is no "spiritual element" or explanation according to those who walk according to the belly and the eyes and mind of the flesh: for they walk according to the fallen carnal nature of the first-man adam, blinded by "the god of this world".

Then we agree, nothing "spooky" happened when Adam and Eve sinned. To that point they had only "known" meaning experienced good, but from that point on they knew, or experienced good AND EVIL. They experienced shame, then fear so hid themselves, then blame of others, then no repentance.

Some like to make out that as Adam ate, the first leaf fell off a tree, the first animal got sick and died etc.

The main thing is that NOTHING HAPPENED that was spooky at the fall. Nothing spooky has been passed on to all mankind.

 

[clefty]

Then we agree, nothing "spooky" happened when Adam and Eve sinned. To that point they had only "known" meaning experienced good, but from that point on they knew, or experienced good AND EVIL. They experienced shame, then fear so hid themselves, then blame of others, then no repentance.

Some like to make out that as Adam ate, the first leaf fell off a tree, the first animal got sick and died etc.

The main thing is that NOTHING HAPPENED that was spooky at the fall. Nothing spooky has been passed on to all mankind.

Nothing spookier to a child than to see a loving parent go ballistic...

True nothing in the forbidden fruit itself but that He was disobeyed...this rebellion triggered a response from Yah that must have spooked ALL prior creation throughout the universe...that these humans were so important to have Him kill...shed blood...for them must have been a shock...

"Now they have become one of Us" and so He cast them out...only occurred AFTER they (all of the universe) witnessed His shedding blood to make coverings, cursing Adam thereby destroying the ground and Adam his purpose, cursing Eve ushering in emnety and pain, and the finally cursing the Snake and extending the plot to a future revelation of salvation

thus He altered all He made on this planet (except time and its Sabbath)...what was going on?

That is spooky...

The universe was introduced to a jealous God...His wrath...

All this of course was because He is on trial His accuser claiming He is not a good God deserving worship and should be replaced...humans were created with free will to be the character witnesses of the Defendant...to determine (for once and for all the universe) is Yah good?

Lucifer had rebelled and was not killed but given a planet to play this out...is Yah good?

So far in Genesis it's not looking so good...Yah now has blood on His hands...but a plan of redemption also revealed the mercy and grace as never before...

 

[daqq]

Then we agree, nothing "spooky" happened when Adam and Eve sinned. To that point they had only "known" meaning experienced good, but from that point on they knew, or experienced good AND EVIL. They experienced shame, then fear so hid themselves, then blame of others, then no repentance.

Some like to make out that as Adam ate, the first leaf fell off a tree, the first animal got sick and died etc.

The main thing is that NOTHING HAPPENED that was spooky at the fall. Nothing spooky has been passed on to all mankind.

Oh I see, (I think), but yeah, if you mean something like the "Cain seed" or "demon seed" teachings, then no, I was not saying anything like that. That is why Qain and his line end up "permanent dwellers upon the land", it is teaching by way of pattern, allegory, and analogy, and the same pattern gets repeated over and over again with different names, places, and circumstances so as to drive the point home to the reader. No one is born with a "Qain seed", (imo), but rather sin crouches at the door, and his/her/its desire is unto you, and you shall rule over it: but if you do not well, you open the door to things like Qain and his line who are seeking rest from wandering about in the dry-arid places and desert-land of Nod-wandering. :chuckle:

 

[iouae]

Oh I see, (I think), but yeah, if you mean something like the "Cain seed" or "demon seed" teachings, then no, I was not saying anything like that.

Thanks Daqq.

 

[iamaberean]

Genesis 5
[01] This is the book of the generations of Adam in the Yom wherein Elohim cut down Adam: in the similitude-likeness of Elohim he made him:
[02] Male and female he created them, and blessed them: and he called their name, Adam, in the Yom wherein they were created, [that is, Yom HaShishi].
[03] And Adam lives a hundred and thirty years and produces a son in his own likeness, according to his image, [which is the similitude-likeness and image of Elohim] and he calls his name Seth.
[04] [Addendum Noah: And the days of Adam after his producing Seth are eight hundred years: and he produces sons and daughters.]

This is interesting for what the bible doesn't say.

1. It never says that Cain or Abel were Adam's son.

2, It never says Cain or Abel were of Adam's image.

3. It never says that Adam had any daughters prior to having Seth.

Because of this the following has to be true.

a. Cain could not have married a sister.

b. Cain for sure, and probably Abel, were children of the wicked one.

 

[daqq]

This is interesting for what the bible doesn't say.

1. It never says that Cain or Abel were Adam's son.

2, It never says Cain or Abel were of Adam's image.

3. It never says that Adam had any daughters prior to having Seth.

Because of this the following has to be true.

a. Cain could not have married a sister.

b. Cain for sure, and probably Abel, were children of the wicked one.

Basing something as important as what you are suggesting on "what is not said" is not a very good practice imho. Moreover your first statement, (#1), is incorrect because the text plainly says that the adam-man "knew" his ishah-wife, (Chawah/Eve), and she conceived. From your perspective, if one were to also hold to the scripture, one would have to conclude that Adam is the serpent. Imo such a proposition is simply out of the question: Adam was not the serpent and Eve did not "physically conceive" by or from the serpent. Also it should be noted here that Adam is a representative federal head and the same word is used for all mankind: the whole story is first and foremost an allegory for the beginnings, (and creation), of mankind. Arguing whether Qain had someone to marry or not is really beyond the scope of what is being related imo because it really is not speaking of carnal physical things but rather supernal realities and truths. However there is another way to answer that, (which I will try to come back to but it pertains to Enosh, which also means, "Man"). Moreover Chawah or Eve represents "the flesh" and that is why Paul says that she is deceived, because all flesh is deceived, (whether you are male or female on the outside). That is also why Paul says not to let your wive(s) speak out in the congregation: if you understand the allegory he is telling the reader not to let his or her flesh do the speaking and-or teaching, (doctrines taught according to the flesh and carnal mindset).

1 Timothy 2:11-15 KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

If you take this passage literally most would say you are still in the stone age: but if you understand that there truly cannot be male or female in Messiah, and you thus understand that the "helpmate" is your physical body, (for the inner man of the Spirit is not his body), then you might see why Paul also says that the woman will be saved through child-bearing. And that is because Chawah is called the mother of all life, but that is "chay", which is raw life, the flesh, and the flesh can only continue by bearing more flesh, a physical seed line, physical procreation. You and your "helpmate" are counted as one flesh: but you are not your flesh, (according to my understanding from the scripture). This is part of what I was also just saying to Iouae, that is, about "mortifying your members which are upon the earth", (as Paul says), putting to death the carnal like instincts of the flesh, destroying your soul and her soulish works for the sake of the Testimony of the Master, (taking up your own stake), for all flesh is deceived, and no flesh will ever be justified before Elohim. Paul is teaching this allegory in the passage above to Timothy: but if you take what he says literally then you must believe that women cannot be saved unless they bear children.

 

[Zeke]

Paul speaks from Olam Haba in his writings, ({1Thes 4:15-17 → Exo 33:4-6} 2Cor 5:10-11, 2Cor 12:1-5). However that does not mean that everyone who reads his words is where he is just because he is uprightly inclusive in his speech, (1Cor 9:19-23, Phil 3:8-12, 13-21).

Once you reconcile the world the need to win someone becomes a mute point, no one was ever lost or died except in times temporal casting of Eternal shadows that veil the light within Galatians 4:1, Life doesn't die it's a fear based conclusion from giving thought to it based on appearance/observation Matt 11:3 Luke 17:20-21, Adam Eve are two aspects of the same conscience with one dominating the other until reconciled Gen 33:4, repeated through out the letter/shadows of the Divine path journey Galatians 4:20-28 same tree with many branches.

We are one with the Father or we are still in fear judging others that reflect our own conscience state with a god who can also be offended, 1John 4:18.

 

[iamaberean]

Basing something as important as what you are suggesting on "what is not said" is not a very good practice imho. Moreover your first statement, (#1), is incorrect because the text plainly says that the adam-man "knew" his ishah-wife, (Chawah/Eve), and she conceived. From your perspective, if one were to also hold to the scripture, one would have to conclude that Adam is the serpent. Imo such a proposition is simply out of the question: Adam was not the serpent and Eve did not "physically conceive" by or from the serpent. Also it should be noted here that Adam is a representative federal head and the same word is used for all mankind: the whole story is first and foremost an allegory for the beginnings, (and creation), of mankind. Arguing whether Qain had someone to marry or not is really beyond the scope of what is being related imo because it really is not speaking of carnal physical things but rather supernal realities and truths. However there is another way to answer that, (which I will try to come back to but it pertains to Enosh, which also means, "Man"). Moreover Chawah or Eve represents "the flesh" and that is why Paul says that she is deceived, because all flesh is deceived, (whether you are male or female on the outside). That is also why Paul says not to let your wive(s) speak out in the congregation: if you understand the allegory he is telling the reader not to let his or her flesh do the speaking and-or teaching, (doctrines taught according to the flesh and carnal mindset).

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
In his own likeness and image and his name Seth.

Nothing said about Abel and Cain being begat of Adam.

But it does say:
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother

So, from the word of God, we know that Seth was begat by Adam and Cain was of the wicked one.

 

[Wick Stick]

Here's a bit of trivia that gets overlooked in the creation account.

Remember the curse that God laid on the ground because of Adam's sin? God lifts that curse in Genesis 9, after the flood.

Yet I've heard Christians claim it is still ongoing...

 

[iamaberean]

There are physical children of the devil on this earth. Jesus doesn't call any man something that they are not.

Speaking to those that had gathered around him.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.