ECT A Question For the Preterists

[whitestone]

The Preterist doesn't have the burden to falsify your theory that it all wasn't fulfilled either. I think it's more likely that the prophecies of Jesus and the apostles were reliable and should be understood within the historical context given for their fulfillment.

And????,,,, your not going to move along to providing us all with proof of when and who fulfilled the scriptures written about the beast?

That's like saying "hey folks,it's all fulfilled I just don’t know how but you just gotta believe me!",lol

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You're just begging the question here.

Like I noted before, lack of secular historical reporting would mean that Jesus Christ (and all the apostles) never existed.

What makes you think that there was a lack of secular history concerning Jesus Christ?

"The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).

Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers" ("Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ?" GotQuestions.org).​

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was reported on by secular historians so there can be no doubt that if the catastrophic events described at Zechariah 14:1-4 happened in the past then they too would have been noticed and reported on by secular historians.

You have to stand reason on its head to deny that truth.

 

[john w]

Zech. 14 KJV was fulfilled in AD 70, when the Bedrock Brontosauruses, defeated the Flintstone Dinosaurs, 666-0.


You're all in denial....

 

[Rivers]

And????,,,, your not going to move along to providing us all with proof of when and who fulfilled the scriptures written about the beast?

That's like saying "hey folks,it's all fulfilled I just don’t know how but you just gotta believe me!",lol

Have you ever considered that you can't explain exactly how the prophecies will supposedly be fulfilled in your future either? Moreover, even the inspired OT prophets didn't understand the details of their own prophecies (1 Peter 1:10-12). Thus, it's unreasonable for you to expect anyone else to read those prophecies and explain all the details.

 

[Rivers]

What makes you think that there was a lack of secular history concerning Jesus Christ? You have to stand reason on its head to deny that truth.

The two references in Josephus that supposedly refer to Jesus and the apostles are considered by most scholars to be later additions. Tacitus and the other sources you cited were writing by hearsay, cannot be precisely dated, and had no contact with anyone who knew Jesus or the apostles.

Anybody can writer about the "Christians" at a later time.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The two references in Josephus that supposedly refer to Jesus and the apostles are considered by most scholars to be later additions. Tacitus and the other sources you cited were writing by hearsay, cannot be precisely dated, and had no contact with anyone who knew Jesus or the apostles.

Anybody can writer about the "Christians" at a later time.

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was reported on by secular historians so there can be no doubt that if the catastrophic events described in the following passage happened in the past then they too would have been noticed and reported on by secular historians:

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:1-4).​

According to your mistaken view, all these things happened in the past in Jerusalem and there were no secular historians who even took notice! Maybe you can trick your mind into believing that but don't expect others to be able to do the same thing.

 

[musterion]

Look at the record of events in 70. Contrast it with that prophecy and you may see what I mean.

Well, Rivers?

 

[Interplanner]

But the real problem here is not being addressed. Every time I read a futurist on this passage, they think it is some great victory. Really? I'm not sure they are paying attention to what it actually says.

 

[Rivers]

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was reported on by secular historians so there can be no doubt that if the catastrophic events described in the following passage happened in the past then they too would have been noticed and reported on by secular historians: ZECH 14

According to your mistaken view, all these things happened in the past in Jerusalem and there were no secular historians who even took notice! Maybe you can trick your mind into believing that but don't expect others to be able to do the same thing.

Your logic here doesn't follow, and thus you are the one who is "mistaken."

Secular historians who reported the Jewish Wars were not required to "take notice" of anything that may have been spoken by a Hebrew prophet. Moreover, you are simply assuming that your interpretation of Zechariah 14 is what those secular historians were supposed to acknowledge.

Most Preterists I know would find your approach laughable. If you interact with Preterists, I would suggest that you make some effort to understand what they actually think instead of desperately clinging to one particular proof-text that you think everyone has to explain to your satisfaction.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But the real problem here is not being addressed. Every time I read a futurist on this passage, they think it is some great victory. Really? I'm not sure they are paying attention to what it actually says.

It is obvious that the events described at Zechariah 4:1-4 will happen here:

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Mt.24:21-22).​

Those days will be shortened when the Lord Jesus comes to the rescue of His people, as witnessed by what we read here:

"In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem" (Zech.12:8-9).​

Of course the preterists say that these events already happened but they are unable to tell us when they did happen.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your logic here doesn't follow, and thus you are the one who is "mistaken."

Secular historians who reported the Jewish Wars were not required to "take notice" of anything that may have been spoken by a Hebrew prophet.

This has nothing to do with any secular historians taking notice of any prophecy found in the Bible. Instead, it is ridiculous to argue that the secular historians would not have taken notice of these events:

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:1-4).​

According to your ideas we are supposed to believe that an event where half of the residents of Jerusalem are taken captive is not even noticed by secular historians!

We are also supposed to believe that when the remaining residents are rescued by a supernatural force then the secular historians do not even notice or report about such an event!

Your judgment is not sound, friend!

Moreover, you are simply assuming that your interpretation of Zechariah 14 is what those secular historians were supposed to acknowledge.

The question I would ask about the fulfillment of Zechariah 14:1-4 is why we would not take it literally?

After all, the passage in Zechariah shows the feet of the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives and when He ascended into heaven from the same mount we read the following:

"And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" (Acts 1:10-11).​

It is impossible to think that this passage is not saying that the Lord Jesus will return to the earth in the same manner which He left. And since He left with His feet standing on the Mount of Olives then it should surprise no one that when He returns His feet will likewise be standing on the Mount of Olives.

So why don't you tell me why we should not take the prophecy of Zechariah 14:1-4 literally?

Most Preterists I know would find your approach laughable.

What is laughable is your idea that an event in Jerusalem where half of the city is taken into captivity is not even noticed by the secular historians. And then the same secular historians do not even notice when a supernatural force intercedes to rescue the remaining residents!

 

[musterion]

What is laughable is your idea that an event in Jerusalem where half of the city is taken into captivity is not even noticed by the secular historians. And then the same secular historians do not even notice when a supernatural force intercedes to rescue the remaining residents!

Yep.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yep.

All of the preterists with whom I have spoken share one characteristic. Here Sir Robert Anderson perfectly describes that characteristic:

"In no other sphere save that of religion do men of intelligence and culture willingly subject their minds to delusions. The historic Church once tried to compel belief that this planet was the fixed centre of the solar system; but who believes it now? Men cannot be made to believe that water runs uphill, or that five and five make anything but ten. In no other sphere can they be induced to stultify reason and common sense. But in religion there seems to be no limit to their credulity" (Anderson, The Bible or the Church? [London: Pickering & Inglis, Second Edition], 61).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This is so typical of the preterists. When they are cornered they just run and hide!

 

[musterion]

Yep.

Then they resurface later and pretend you never posted any of this.

 

[Interplanner]

All of the preterists with whom I have spoken share one characteristic. Here Sir Robert Anderson perfectly describes that characteristic:

"In no other sphere save that of religion do men of intelligence and culture willingly subject their minds to delusions. The historic Church once tried to compel belief that this planet was the fixed centre of the solar system; but who believes it now? Men cannot be made to believe that water runs uphill, or that five and five make anything but ten. In no other sphere can they be induced to stultify reason and common sense. But in religion there seems to be no limit to their credulity" (Anderson, The Bible or the Church? [London: Pickering & Inglis, Second Edition], 61).​

But Jerry, I'm referring to the same thing. 2P2P says there is this other program going or running in the background of the Bible, no matter how much at odds it is with what the NT says. Ie, it's like talking to people who believe there are TWO suns in our sky.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But Jerry, I'm referring to the same thing. 2P2P says there is this other program going or running in the background of the Bible, no matter how much at odds it is with what the NT says. Ie, it's like talking to people who believe there are TWO suns in our sky.

No, that is not what 2P2P says. The other program of which you speak is not now going in the background of the Bible. That other program will not begin running again until the Body of Christ is removed from the earth when the members of the Body will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air.

You do not understand what the Bible teaches and you do not understand what the Dispensationalists teach.

All you are good for is misinformation.

 

[Right Divider]

No, that is not what 2P2P says. The other program of which you speak is not now going in the background of the Bible. That other program will not begin running again until the Body of Christ is removed from the earth when the members of the Body will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air.

You do not understand what the Bible teaches and you do not understand what the Dispensationalists teach.

All you are good for is misinformation.

IP lives in a fantasy world. He does not even know what the "NT" is. He thinks that everything from Matt 1:1 to Rev 22:21 is the "NT".

His ignorance is only matched by his inflated ego.

 

[musterion]

IP has also insisted he's not a preterist. He's a lying scam artist what can't keep his story straight.

 

[Interplanner]

IP lives in a fantasy world. He does not even know what the "NT" is. He thinks that everything from Matt 1:1 to Rev 22:21 is the "NT".

His ignorance is only matched by his inflated ego.

And yet every post by JS is about how a certain OT passage has not happened yet! That's what 2P2P is; another program is running that 'needs' to be fulfilled for the Bible to 'make sense.' I know of which I speak.