The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
keypurr
Well-known member
Did you read the words "therfore God, your God" ?
Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
Didn't the sacrifice have to be perfect? Jesus is the Logos become flesh (Of course another one of your futile denials)
John 1:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Word Becomes Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Ponder that friend. God became a man and dwelt among His people.
keypurr
Well-known member
God created all through his Son, but that son was not a man.
Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
keypurr
Well-known member
Get back to you later as I am not at home and must recharge my tablet battery.
Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
Did you read, "But to the Son He says:
Your throne, O God"?
See, having both the Son and the Father (and the Holy Spirit, for that matter) as God fits my theology, which matches what this verse says.
However, you have to ignore the first part of this passage and emphasize the part which fits your theology, because the first part does not fit your theology, meaning your theology is not Biblical.
Or what, is God the Father talking only to Himself, and calling Himself the Son? That is illogical at best, and it makes God look schizophrenic, which He is most certainly not.
musterion
Well-known member
No it isn't. Every referred Scripture is in context. You're just lazy and afraid to try to refute it. But I invite you to try -- start a new thread just for that.
Dare you.
He doesn't have the exegetical background.
musterion
Well-known member
He doesn't need it -- all he needs to do is look at each of the verse references as they're found. But that takes honest objectivity and a willingness to be shown you're wrong. That's what he lacks.
God says that we are to have no other God's other than Him, nor are we to worship anyone other than Him.
*And God spoke all these words, saying:*“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.*“You shall have no other gods before Me.*“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; *you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, - Exodus 20:1-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus20:1-5&version=NKJV
He also tells us that idolatry (the worship of entities other than Him will result in us not inheriting His Kingdom, that they are works of the flesh.
*Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, *idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, *envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. - Galatians 5:19-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians5:19-21&version=NKJV
So we know now that worshipping of any other entity besides God is a sin.
So then why does Jesus (if He is not God, as you say) throughout the New Testament accept worship, ESPECIALLY before His baptism?
The Wise Men (aka Magi) worshipped Him:
*And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh. - Matthew 2:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew2:11&version=NKJV
Jerusalem worshipped Him:
*And a very great multitude spread their clothes on the road; others cut down branches from the trees and spread them on the road. *Then the multitudes who went before and those who followed cried out, saying:“Hosanna to the Son of David!‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’Hosanna in the highest!”*And when He had come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, “Who is this?”*So the multitudes said, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee.” - Matthew 21:8-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew21:8-11&version=NKJV
*The next day a great multitude that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, *took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him, and cried out:“Hosanna!‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’The King of Israel!”*Then Jesus, when He had found a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written:*“Fear not, daughter of Zion;Behold, your King is coming,Sitting on a donkey’s colt.”*His disciples did not understand these things at first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written about Him and that they had done these things to Him. - John 12:12-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John12:12-16&version=NKJV
His disciples worshipped Him:
*And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” *And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.*Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.” - Matthew 14:31-33 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew14:31-33&version=NKJV
Keypurr, when is the last time you read Luke 2?
jsanford108
New member
I know I have not participated in this thread for some time, however I have attempted to keep up to date on it.
That being said, I have a question. How does a non-Trinitarian argue the events of the baptism of Christ, as found in Matthew and Luke 3? God speaks, saying "This is my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
God has never spoken in such a manner regarding a "man." Look at every prophet. Never did God speak in such fashion, or intimacy. Also, never had the Holy Spirit descended as a dove before. How does a non-Trinity view hold this verse? And how does a non-Trinity view answer the question of why God would speak in such an intimate manner?
One final point, which seems to always be discussed, but never outright said: Non-Trinitarians utilize the question, "why would God kill Himself?" This question, while an attempt to argue with logic, opens another question. That of "why could God not do that?" To say that God can't is a limit of God's absolute power. Questioning God's ability to do something is a questioning of God Himself. Asking "why," in search of a source/rationale is reasonable, but for the particular of Christ's sacrifice, it gets reduced to a "how." This is a recurring fault I find in a non-Trinity argument.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
That being said, I have a question. How does a non-Trinitarian argue the events of the baptism of Christ, as found in Matthew and Luke 3? God speaks, saying "This is my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
God has never spoken in such a manner regarding a "man." Look at every prophet. Never did God speak in such fashion, or intimacy. Also, never had the Holy Spirit descended as a dove before. How does a non-Trinity view hold this verse? And how does a non-Trinity view answer the question of why God would speak in such an intimate manner?
One final point, which seems to always be discussed, but never outright said: Non-Trinitarians utilize the question, "why would God kill Himself?" This question, while an attempt to argue with logic, opens another question. That of "why could God not do that?" To say that God can't is a limit of God's absolute power. Questioning God's ability to do something is a questioning of God Himself. Asking "why," in search of a source/rationale is reasonable, but for the particular of Christ's sacrifice, it gets reduced to a "how." This is a recurring fault I find in a non-Trinity argument.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Is Jesus God? Did He ever claim to be God?
From Gotquestions.org
The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).
John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!
Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God,” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.
In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.
The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.
From Gotquestions.org
The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).
John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!
Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God,” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.
In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.
The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.
keypurr
Well-known member
Jesus was perfect, stainless man that is why he qualified as the Lamb of God.
Jesus was not the logos, the logos was IN him, remember the dove?
The logos became flesh in the body prepared for it, see Heb 10:5.
I understand the process, you do not. A body was prepared for the logos (spirit son, express image, Word). The logos is the Son God sent to dwell in the body (Jesus) God prepared for IT.
The true Son is a Spirit not a man.
Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
keypurr
Well-known member
I have studied the chapter many times JR.
The son in question laid the foundation of the Universe. He/it is a created FORM of God, but not the most high. Look again, his God say he is "o God" or "a god" for he was given the fullness of the Father by the Father.
There is only one true God, the Father. All power given to the logos came from his creator.
I do not ignore any verses, I see what they say and prove my understanding of them before I accept them. I discard most traditional errors that distort what is written. I check and recheck in my many translations. My thoughts come from many Bibles.
Our first century church fathers have distorted the truth. By the fourth century it was no longer a church of Christ, it became a page offshoot.
Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
keypurr
Well-known member
It's not keypurr that has his eyes closed and his fingers in his ears.
Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
keypurr
Well-known member
I have been refuting it for about five years now.
You have not heard me in five years, why would you listen now? Dare all you want, you are not interested in any truth that will take you out of your comfort zone.
Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
keypurr
Well-known member
You do? Your blinded by tradition BR.
God did not use a man to create the Universe.
Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
keypurr
Well-known member
Judge you seem to be having a problem with my faith.
I love the God of my Lord Jesus.
Do you understand that statement?
I worship the Father as my God and his Son as my Lord.
It is the Trinity that has made Jesus Christ as God, not me. When will you realize what the church has done to deny the words of our Go's and our Lord.
Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
...