ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

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godrulz

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Lighthouse said:
The blood.


Faith in the coming Messiah and His sacrifice or faith in the Messiah who came and His sacrifice.

OT saints did not go to hell. They also had a covenant. God was able to save and keep the people of God in all dispensations and covenants. Hyper-dispensationalism makes reconciliation, redemption, relationship, forgiveness, etc. too dissimilar. The essence of reconciliation with God was the same. The difference is shadow/type (OT) vs the fulfilled reality. The plan of redemption was initiated in the Garden. It was not fulfilled until the cross, and will be ultimately consummated at the end of time. God is able to save and keep in all generations. Likewise, His grace and provision (whether temporary animal sacrifices or the Lamb of God) could be rejected by all generations. The Old Covenant had a faith/relational component, even as the New Covenant did. It is not a different God in the NT, nor is man essentially different in the NT. Yes, we have the indwelling Spirit and the reality of Christ's sacrifice, but the OT saints also had a sacrificial system temporarily accepted by God. They walked with God, even as we do. Some walked away from God, even as some believers do. In no cases did God initiate the severance of relationship or walk away from someone without just cause.
 

Clete

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godrulz said:
Why could they lose their salvation in a different dispensation? God was just as faithful, and man was just as fickle.
Because the terms of the agreement are different.

In one agreement there is commitment from both parties. God agrees to do His part and Abraham (the one with whom the agreement was specifically made in Gen. 17) agreed to do his part. Failure on either parties part to fulfill their part to the bargain broke the contract.

The other agreement (made with Abram (Gen. 15) was a completely one sided agreement. Abram wasn't even awake when the deal was "cut" and so there wasn't anything that he could do to break the contract and since we know that God isn't going to go against His word then the deal is quite secure.

Note that this one sided deal came first and so is unaffected by the status of the other. Abraham was the father of two groups; those of the circumcision and of the uncircumcision as well. This is the point Paul is makes over and over again throughout his ministry but particularly in Romans 4 and Galatians 3.

The group with whom the covenant of circumcision was made (Israel) has been cut off and so the covenant of circumcision has been held in abeyance until God returns to complete His work with the nation of Israel to "magnify the law and make it honorable". But for now we are in operation under that superior covenant of promise, the covenant of faith, the covenant in which all the obligation is on God. This covenant of promise was made "to Abraham and his seed." (Gal. 3:16) "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise."

So to answer the question directly, we cannot lose our salvation now because we are under a covenant which we have no power to break once we enter into it since all of the terms of the agreement apply to God alone.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

godrulz

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Salvation has a conditional element or all would be saved (univeralism; determinism). This is true in both covenants as well as pre and post conversion.

There are unconditional covenants, but most are conditional since they involve two parties (a faithful God and fickle men). (covenant e.g. Noahic, Abrahamic, Davidic, etc.). Perhaps some that one assumes to be unconditional are actually conditional (cf. prophecies that seem unconditional, but are cond.).

There are clearly conditions (not without which) and grounds (reason for which) of salvation in both covenants.

My understanding, based on the text, is that repentant faith with continuance in the faith (ongoing belief and love vs one time act) were conditions in all generations. Works has never been a condition of salvation. Faith (root) can be evidenced by law-keeping or works (fruit), but the fruit does not save us.
 

Clete

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godrulz said:
Salvation has a conditional element or all would be saved (univeralism; determinism). This is true in both covenants as well as pre and post conversion.

There are unconditional covenants, but most are conditional since they involve two parties (a faithful God and fickle men). (covenant e.g. Noahic, Abrahamic, Davidic, etc.). Perhaps some that one assumes to be unconditional are actually conditional (cf. prophecies that seem unconditional, but are cond.).

There are clearly conditions (not without which) and grounds (reason for which) of salvation in both covenants.

My understanding, based on the text, is that repentant faith with continuance in the faith (ongoing belief and love vs one time act) were conditions in all generations. Works has never been a condition of salvation. Faith (root) can be evidenced by law-keeping or works (fruit), but the fruit does not save us.
You ignore the Gen. 15 covenant which involved two parties only one of which was conscious. Do you suppose that Abraham could have done something to annul an agreement that he wasn't even awake to make? If so, how?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

elected4ever

New member
Clete said:
Indeed! The love of God is awesome!

I think however, that Lighthouse isn't attempting to point out God's amazing grace but rather a conflict in elected4ever's thinking.

The conflict, if I'm reading Lighthouse correctly, stems from the following statement made by elected4ever...



My suspicion is that elected4ever sees the conflict as well, if only intuitively, and is therefore evading answering the question in light of this previous comment.

Lighthouse has him stuck in the undesirable position of having to choose between saying that Jesus didn't die for the whole world or that He knowingly died for people that he ordained to go to Hell anyway or that his previous statement was wrong.

Checkmate!

Resting in Him,
Clete
lier :nananana:
 

RobE

New member
The point has been asked and answered.....

Clete said:
I think however, that Lighthouse isn't attempting to point out God's amazing grace but rather a conflict in elected4ever's thinking.

Lighthouse said:
e4e-
If God knew who would and would not accept Jesus, why did Jesus die for all people? Why would Jesus have died for people who would not accept Him anyway?
And why would He [God] create Adam and Eve if He knew they were just going to fall, and He would have to send His Son? What sense does that make?

The conflict, if I'm reading Lighthouse correctly, stems from the following statement made by elected4ever...

elected4ever said:
Yes, God foresaw from the beginning and what He foresaw He Foreknew and what he foreknew he foreordained and what He foreordained He did predestine. The fact is I don't know what my choices in life will be and nether do you but that does not keep God from knowing.

My suspicion is that elected4ever sees the conflict as well, if only intuitively, and is therefore evading answering the question in light of this previous comment.

Lighthouse has him stuck in the undesirable position of having to choose between saying that Jesus didn't die for the whole world or that He knowingly died for people that he ordained to go to Hell anyway or that his previous statement was wrong.

Checkmate!

Resting in Him,
Clete

In answer e4e said "because God loved them". You don't find this sufficient?

Let me ask a couple of questions myself of Lighthouse....

1) Why didn't God kill Adam immediately when Adam sinned?
Wouldn't that have made sense?

2) Couldn't God have just skipped all the trouble by not making man to begin with?
Wouldn't that have made sense?

Do you see the same conflict in these whether God foresaw the future or not, Clete? Isn't it the same answer to lighthouses question about Jesus dying for all when He knew some would not be saved? e4e's answer about God's immutable love was the correct answer even though you wouldn't accept it. Am I saying that through His love some won't be saved? No! I'm saying that through His love all can be saved. That's why the elect are predestined but the reprobate earn their own reward. Jesus earned ours.

The answer to why God did these things--- Divine Will. God wanted to create and make man. He loved man when He made man(or before he made man, e4e). Why? I don't know, e4e doesn't know, lighthouse doesn't know, and Clete doesn't know. The Lord just wanted to and did it. Why would He do it if He knew some would suffer eternal salvation? To save the others which He loved. Is this really hard to understand?

Jesus died for all men. God fore-knowing who would accept His gift or not has nothing to do with culpability, only history. Jesus died so all could be saved, not would be saved.

I find it interesting that Bob Hill believes that he is elected forever.....

Bob Hill said:
We cannot lose our salvation in this dispensation of grace.

As a note to e4e: Clete is right when He says your original statement can't stand. Foresight does not equal foreordination of the reprobate. It's a common mistake of Open Theists to say they do. You need to clarify your predestined statement of the reprobate because traditional Christianity recongnizes only the predestination of the Elect. Since God's will is that ALL will be saved, God in effect has predestined all to Live. It's through their own liberty that they do not. Through foresight, God sees who will and won't, but doesn't create them for that purpose. Foresight does however equal foreordination of the Elect.

Thanks and good job, E4E!!!!

Rob
 

Lighthouse

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godrulz said:
Faith in the coming Messiah and His sacrifice or faith in the Messiah who came and His sacrifice.

OT saints did not go to hell. They also had a covenant. God was able to save and keep the people of God in all dispensations and covenants. Hyper-dispensationalism makes reconciliation, redemption, relationship, forgiveness, etc. too dissimilar. The essence of reconciliation with God was the same. The difference is shadow/type (OT) vs the fulfilled reality. The plan of redemption was initiated in the Garden. It was not fulfilled until the cross, and will be ultimately consummated at the end of time. God is able to save and keep in all generations. Likewise, His grace and provision (whether temporary animal sacrifices or the Lamb of God) could be rejected by all generations. The Old Covenant had a faith/relational component, even as the New Covenant did. It is not a different God in the NT, nor is man essentially different in the NT. Yes, we have the indwelling Spirit and the reality of Christ's sacrifice, but the OT saints also had a sacrificial system temporarily accepted by God. They walked with God, even as we do. Some walked away from God, even as some believers do. In no cases did God initiate the severance of relationship or walk away from someone without just cause.
God could not forgive the sins of anyone without the blood of Christ, and therefore the sins of the OT saints were not forgiven. They were merely covered, by the sacrifices they made.
 

Lighthouse

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RobE said:
The point has been asked and answered.....



In answer e4e said "because God loved them". You don't find this sufficient?
That doesn't answer the question. The question is what sense does it make? He knew His love and sacrifice were futile, and He died anyway?:confused:

Let me ask a couple of questions myself of Lighthouse....

1) Why didn't God kill Adam immediately when Adam sinned?
Wouldn't that have made sense?
No, it wouldn't have made sense. Adam needed a chance to repent, as we all do. If it would have made sense for God to kill Adam and Eve when they sinned then it would make sense for Him to kill all of us as soon as we sin.

2) Couldn't God have just skipped all the trouble by not making man to begin with?
Wouldn't that have made sense?
Yes, it would have. That's my point. If God knew it was going to fail, then it would have made more sense not to do it at all. But, because there was hope it would succeed, He did it. That is my stance.

Do you see the same conflict in these whether God foresaw the future or not, Clete? Isn't it the same answer to lighthouses question about Jesus dying for all when He knew some would not be saved? e4e's answer about God's immutable love was the correct answer even though you wouldn't accept it. Am I saying that through His love some won't be saved? No! I'm saying that through His love all can be saved. That's why the elect are predestined but the reprobate earn their own reward. Jesus earned ours.
What conflict? The conflict in e4e's response, or my question, does not exist in the questions you asked of me.

The answer to why God did these things--- Divine Will. God wanted to create and make man. He loved man when He made man(or before he made man, e4e). Why? I don't know, e4e doesn't know, lighthouse doesn't know, and Clete doesn't know. The Lord just wanted to and did it. Why would He do it if He knew some would suffer eternal salvation? To save the others which He loved. Is this really hard to understand?
Why not just create Adam and Eve without any rules whatsoever, so they could not sin?

Jesus died for all men. God fore-knowing who would accept His gift or not has nothing to do with culpability, only history. Jesus died so all could be saved, not would be saved.
Why, knowing who would not be saved, die for those who would not be saved? Why not just die for those who would be saved? Calvinism makes more sense than your position. But the Bible is clear that God died for all people, so Calvinism is false ion that respect. So, something the Bible shows to be false makes more sense than your stance. What does that tell you?

I find it interesting that Bob Hill believes that he is elected forever.....
Why does that surprise you? Would it surprise you to know that I believe I am saved eternally, and I cannot lose my salvation?


As a note to e4e: Clete is right when He says your original statement can't stand. Foresight does not equal foreordination of the reprobate. It's a common mistake of Open Theists to say they do. You need to clarify your predestined statement of the reprobate because traditional Christianity recongnizes only the predestination of the Elect. Since God's will is that ALL will be saved, God in effect has predestined all to Live. It's through their own liberty that they do not. Through foresight, God sees who will and won't, but doesn't create them for that purpose. Foresight does however equal foreordination of the Elect.
So what do you call it? God knows what's going to happen, and nothing can change what's going to happen. What is that? One whom God knows will not get saved cannot get saved, according to your belief. Does that sound like the God of the Bible to you?
 

godrulz

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Lighthouse said:
God could not forgive the sins of anyone without the blood of Christ, and therefore the sins of the OT saints were not forgiven. They were merely covered, by the sacrifices they made.


OT saints will still live with God forever. I understand what you are saying based on Hebrews.

Why did David repent and ask for forgiveness. Forgiveness is a choice. God freely wants to forgive and is able to. There are governmental issues that necessitate a substitute for the penalty of sin. Forgiveness is chosing to not bring up the sin. It is not forgetfulness.

Is the word or concept of forgiveness used in the OT?

Animal sacrifices were a shadow or type of the Lamb of God.

If OT saints were not forgiven while they were alive, did God forgive them in the afterlife hundreds of years later? If they were not forgiven, why were they considered in right relationship with God? Sins are not literal things that can be covered in blood. When the person dies, there is not a bag of sins buried in the grave. There are not literal sins nailed on the cross. Jesus was nailed to the cross.

The topic is Open Theism, not redemption. We are off track.
 

Lighthouse

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godrulz said:
OT saints will still live with God forever. I understand what you are saying based on Hebrews.
Isn't there something in Paul's writings, as well?

And the OT saints live with God because Christ freed them, but they were not free until His death.

Why did David repent and ask for forgiveness. Forgiveness is a choice. God freely wants to forgive and is able to. There are governmental issues that necessitate a substitute for the penalty of sin. Forgiveness is chosing to not bring up the sin. It is not forgetfulness.
David repented because David needed to repent. And if God promises something do you believe He will hold to that promise?

Is the word or concept of forgiveness used in the OT?
Not the forgiveness found in the blood of the Lamb, unless in a prophecy.

Animal sacrifices were a shadow or type of the Lamb of God.
No kidding. However, they did not cleanse sin away as Christ's sacrifice did. They merely covered it.

If OT saints were not forgiven while they were alive, did God forgive them in the afterlife hundreds of years later? If they were not forgiven, why were they considered in right relationship with God? Sins are not literal things that can be covered in blood. When the person dies, there is not a bag of sins buried in the grave. There are not literal sins nailed on the cross. Jesus was nailed to the cross.
They were forgiven while in Abraham's bosom, by the blood of Christ.

They were considered in right relationship with God because they lived according to the law, and made the appropriate sacrifices when they failed.

The topic is Open Theism, not redemption. We are off track.
then let's let this discussion go. We can debate eternal security in a thread on the topic.
 

RobE

New member
Allright Lighthouse let me shed some light on the situation.

Lighthouse said:
That doesn't answer the question. The question is what sense does it make? He knew His love and sacrifice were futile, and He died anyway?:confused:

1) If Jesus died knowing that some wouldn't be saved then why not do something so ALL would be saved. Could He have done this? Or did He expect all would be saved after He was crucified?

2) If God knows the future and some wouldn't be saved then why not do something so ALL would be saved. Could He have done this?

It's the same question with the same answer.

__________________________________________________________

Rob said:
Let me ask a couple of questions myself of Lighthouse....

1) Why didn't God kill Adam immediately when Adam sinned?
Wouldn't that have made sense?

1)No, it wouldn't have made sense. Adam needed a chance to repent, as we all do. If it would have made sense for God to kill Adam and Eve when they sinned then it would make sense for Him to kill all of us as soon as we sin.

Rob said:
1a)If God foreknew Adam would sin why didn't God refuse to make him? Wouldn't that have made sense.

1a)No, it wouldn't have made sense. Adam needed a chance to repent, as we all do. If it would have made sense for God not to make Adam and Eve if He foresaw them sinning then it would make sense for Him to not make all of us as soon as He saw us sinning.

Where would that have gotten us?

______________________________________________________________

Rob said:
2) Couldn't God have just skipped all the trouble by not making man to begin with?
Wouldn't that have made sense?

lighthouse said:
Yes, it would have. That's my point. If God knew it was going to fail, then it would have made more sense not to do it at all. But, because there was hope it would succeed, He did it. That is my stance.

If God foresaw man would fall and not created us; then there would have been no hope for the ones of us who are redeemed.
________________________________________________________________

Lighthouse said:
Why not just create Adam and Eve without any rules whatsoever, so they could not sin?

This defeats Open Theism and you can't even see it. Free will isn't what makes us in God's image. Correct choices do. Animals have free will, but no culpability because they don't know what good and evil are. With a creation where good and evil are real choices then men eventually will choose evil; even though, they were created good. Whether God foresaw men sinning or it suprised Him; He created them for the same reasons and allowed them liberty to act for the same reasons. Open Theisms attempt to say those reasons are invalid with foresight would, by their own reasoning, make those reasons invalid if God can't see the future.

Lighthouse said:
Why, knowing who would not be saved, die for those who would not be saved? Why not just die for those who would be saved?

Just as e4e said: Because He loved them all, not just those that would be saved. There is no greater love than a (Son of)Man who lays down His own life for His enemies. Sound familiar?

Lighthouse said:
Why does that surprise you? Would it surprise you to know that I believe I am saved eternally, and I cannot lose my salvation?

Just that it makes you a 1 point Calvinist. Calvinists did come foreward with that theology.

Lighthouse said:
So what do you call it? God knows what's going to happen, and nothing can change what's going to happen. What is that? One whom God knows will not get saved cannot get saved, according to your belief. Does that sound like the God of the Bible to you?

God is the God of miracles. Don't you think? I never said He's not capable of making you into a NEW creation, just that you're not capable of changing Him. And you misconstrue my belief-----Some whom God wants to save will not get saved according to both our beliefs. Does that sound like the God of the Bible to you?

What you have to ask yourself is what was God's purpose for the creation? With or without foresight those reasons would be the same, right? So in answer to your question to e4e I'll answer----- Because He loved you even though He foreknew that Judas would betray Him. Thank God He didn't stop creation for Judas' sake and therefore stop yours. In your opinion was it worth it to you----it was to Him?. Love.

Yours,

Rob
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Godrules wrote,

Why could they lose their salvation in a different dispensation? God was just as faithful, and man was just as fickle.

Godrules,

The Bible shows us that the salvation of a believer has always been through faith or belief in God’s Word. The Bible shows a progressive revelation over many dispensations (house rules) and many years. What they had to believe has changed from dispensation to dispensation (different house rules). For instance, we see that Peter was saved, but the Scripture shows that early in Christ’s ministry, Peter did not understand that the death and resurrection of Christ was what was necessary for his salvation.

Later Paul was inspired by God to show how to be saved in the Dispensation of Grace. 1 Co 15:1-4: “Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you -- unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.” That salvation depended on believing certain things. He wrote, under inspiration, that the gospel of salvation in the dispensation of Grace rested on the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.

The dispensation of grace began with the Apostle Paul. He wrote in 1 Co 9:17,18 “For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a dispensation. 18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.”

In Eph 1:7-12, he wrote about this dispensation of the mystery: “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.”

He showed the basis of salvation in Eph 3:1-6 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles -- 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel.

All of the events up to and including Pentecost were about the Messianic Kingdom of which Peter had the keys. None of those events were about the Body of Christ. In fact, when Peter was preaching on the day of Pentecost, the method God gave him included water baptism for salvation: Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

In contrast, here are the Pauline passages that show salvation in the dispensation of Grace only required faith, or belief.
Acts 16:30,31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (NKJV)
Rom 1:16,17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” (NKJV)
Rom 5:9-11 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. (NKJV)
Rom 10:8-13 “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” (NKJV)
1 Co 3:9-15 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (NKJV)
Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (NKJV)
Eph 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (NKJV)
Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (NKJV)

I’ll show the passages from the “Circumcision Gospel” that Christ gave to the 11 for the dispensation when the offering of the kingdom was made, to Israel, on Pentecost. It was re-given in the circumcision writings of Hebrews through Revelation for those who will go through the future tribulation.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Godrulz,

In addition to believing in Jesus Christ as our savior, is there anything else that we must do to make sure we are saved? For instance, if I fall away, can I be saved? If you are depending on what the Bible says in Heb 6:4-6, the answer would be, No! Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

In contrast it says something quite different in Eph 1:4-14 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

We cannot lose our salvation in this dispensation, the dispensation of grace.

Do we have to confess our sins to have them forgiven? Under the gospel given to the circumcision apostles, the answer is yes. 1 Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
In the present dispensation of grace, we do not have to confess our sins. What is the answer to the question, “What must I do to be saved?

We look to Acts 16:30-31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” No confession is needed.

Do we have to be water baptized to have our sins forgiven? Under the dispensation when the 11 were presenting the message to the Jews after Christ’s resurrection, but before the body of Christ started with the salvation of Paul, Peter said they had to be water baptized to be saved. Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Christ said, in Mark 16:15,16, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

In Acts 22:12-16 water baptism was also necessary for salvation. “Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 “Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’”

When Paul wrote to the Corinthians after the dispensation of grace had started, he explained to them since he had been to Corinth, that it was Spirit baptism, now. 1 Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body - whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free - and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

As we’ve seen, the 12 apostles under the gospel of the circumcision preached that you had to be water baptized to be saved. But, Paul wrote in 1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Some teach that you have to live according to God’s law to be saved. Let me ask this final question. Do we have to do works of the law to be saved? It says you do in the book of James. Jam 1:25; 2:6-12,14,24 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called? 8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

But in the dispensation of grace which God gave to Paul, works are not a necessary part of the redemptive process. Rom 4:4-5 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faithfulness of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Godrulz,

Godrulz,

God has two main gospels. One was given to Paul and one to Peter.
Gal 2:2-9 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 7 . . . when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

So, the circumcision gospel had conditions. But, the uncircumcision gospel had no conditions, just believe. Further, Paul’s message had some secret elements.
Eph 3:1-9 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles – 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship dispensation of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

We are not under the circumcision gospel. Therefore, the Circumcision Epistles do not apply to us for salvation or security.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Godrulz,

Just in case, the circumcision epistles are those written by the circumcision leaders, Peter, James, Jude and John.

Bob Hill
 
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