ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Bob Hill]

Because God Changes His mind, prayer is effective, and I praise Him for that.

Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation. 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever. 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Wow, what a wonderful God we have.

Safe in Christ,

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Because there is free will, God’s promises to Israel are conditional.
Ex 33:2 And I will send My Angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite.
Ex 34:11 Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite.
Ex 34:24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the LORD your God three times in the year.
Josh 1:4-5 From the wilderness and this Lebanon as far as the great river, the River Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and to the Great Sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your territory. 5 No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life; as I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not leave you nor forsake you.
Josh 3:10 And Joshua said, By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites:
Josh 15:63 As for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem to this day.
Josh 16:10 And they did not drive out the Canaanites who dwelt in Gezer; but the Canaanites dwell among the Ephraimites to this day and have become forced laborers.
Judg 2:1-3 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars. But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.
Judg 2:19-22 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they reverted and behaved more corruptly than their fathers, by following other gods, to serve them and bow down to them. They did not cease from their own doings nor from their stubborn way. 20 Then the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice, 21 I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, 22 so that through them I may test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the LORD, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not.
Judg 3:1-6 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, that He might test Israel by them, that is, all who had not known any of the wars in Canaan 2 (this was only so that the generations of the children of Israel might be taught to know war, at least those who had not formerly known it), 3 namely, five lords of the Philistines, all the Canaanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites who dwelt in Mount Lebanon, from Mount Baal Hermon to the entrance of Hamath. 4 And they were left, that He might test Israel by them, to know whether they would obey the commandments of the LORD, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses. 5 Thus the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 6 And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons; and they served their gods.

What a blessing that God allows us to influence Him.

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

I must confess that I had a lousy prayer life years ago when I was a Calvinist. I believed that God predestined everything and thus foreknew everything. Therefore, everything was already locked in and could not be changed.

But that was not true, and I pray much more because I know He hears our prayers and they have an effect on Him.

Praise God,

Bob Hill

 

[sentientsynth]

Yeah, Bob. I too rationalized many things away when I was calvanist. I'd say, "Well, if I do it, then God predestined it. Let's get to it!!"

 

[godrulz]

Jesus called Peter Satan or accuser not devil. Jesus had just told the disciples what was going to happen to Him. Peter essentially accused Jesus of lying hence the name accuser or satan. Satan in this case is not a proper name and it should be spelled with a shall s.

I thought Jesus was addressing the spirit (Satan/demons) behind Peter's wrong assumptions. Satan influenced Peter. This is like Jesus rebuking the evil spirits behind a storm or an individual's acting out.

You will be hard pressed to find a commentator to agree with your 'satan' interpretation.

 

[godrulz]

I must confess that I had a lousy prayer life years ago when I was a Calvinist. I believed that God predestined everything and thus foreknew everything. Therefore, everything was already locked in and could not be changed.

But that was not true, and I pray much more because I know He hears our prayers and they have an effect on Him.

Praise God,

Bob Hill

Right doctrine leads to right practice. The Open view has practical implications on prayer, evangelism, social concerns, right living, etc.

 

[Lighthouse]

e4e-
If God knew who would and would not accept Jesus, why did Jesus die for all people? Why would Jesus have died for people who would not accept Him anyway?

And why would He [God] create Adam and Eve if He knew they were just going to fall, and He would have to send His Son? What sense does that make?

 

[godrulz]

e4e-
If God knew who would and would not accept Jesus, why did Jesus die for all people? Why would Jesus have died for people who would not accept Him anyway?

And why would He [God] create Adam and Eve if He knew they were just going to fall, and He would have to send His Son? What sense does that make?

Logically, he should conclude that God is responsible for evil and that the atonement is limited (Calvinism).

 

[Bob Hill]

godrulz,

I agree. Mat 16:22,23 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!” 23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

When Peter heard the words that Christ said, (Can you imagine this?) he said to Christ, this should not happen. Peter certainly didn’t understand Christ’s mission. Peter couldn’t understand how Christ, who was the Messiah, could die by the hands of these evil leaders. Christ rebuked him severely, for Peter was doing Satan’s job. I believe Christ was addressing Satan as well as Peter because Satan was trying to use Peter.

Bob Hill

 

[elected4ever]

godrulz,

I agree. Mat 16:22,23 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!” 23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

When Peter heard the words that Christ said, (Can you imagine this?) he said to Christ, this should not happen. Peter certainly didn’t understand Christ’s mission. Peter couldn’t understand how Christ, who was the Messiah, could die by the hands of these evil leaders. Christ rebuked him severely, for Peter was doing Satan’s job. I believe Christ was addressing Satan as well as Peter because Satan was trying to use Peter.

Bob Hill

:up:

 

[elected4ever]

e4e-
If God knew who would and would not accept Jesus, why did Jesus die for all people? Why would Jesus have died for people who would not accept Him anyway?

And why would He [God] create Adam and Eve if He knew they were just going to fall, and He would have to send His Son? What sense does that make?

God's knowing does not prevent free will on the part of man. If God chose arbitrarily for man then man could not be held responsible and if God had not made salvation available to all man then salvation could not be a legitimate choice and God would be an unjust God.

God said, "Let us create man in our our image.", and He did as far as a created being could be in the image of God.As far as God's creation was concerned, it was completed on the sixth day and God was pleased with what he had done. The remainder of making man into the image of God was not a creative work but one of procreation. So as Paul Harvey would say, "Now the rest of the story." No man can be as his father unless he is first given birth. No man can be the express image of God with out being a procreation of God. A person must be "BORN AGAIN" John 3:5 *Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 *That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 *Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 1 John 3:9 *Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 4:1 *¶Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 *Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 *And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 *¶Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 *They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6 *We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7 *¶Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 *He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 *In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 *Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 *Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 *No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 *Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 *¶And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.15 *Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 *And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 *¶Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

 

[Lighthouse]

God's knowing does not prevent free will on the part of man. If God chose arbitrarily for man then man could not be held responsible and if God had not made salvation available to all man then salvation could not be a legitimate choice and God would be an unjust God.

That's not my point, e4e. I want to know why Jesus died for people He knew would reject Him.

God said, "Let us create man in our our image.", and He did as far as a created being could be in the image of God.As far as God's creation was concerned, it was completed on the sixth day and God was pleased with what he had done. The remainder of making man into the image of God was not a creative work but one of procreation. So as Paul Harvey would say, "Now the rest of the story." No man can be as his father unless he is first given birth. No man can be the express image of God with out being a procreation of God. A person must be "BORN AGAIN" John 3:5 *Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 *That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 *Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 1 John 3:9 *Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 4:1 *¶Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 *Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 *And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 *¶Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 *They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6 *We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7 *¶Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 *He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 *In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 *Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 *Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 *No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 *Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 *¶And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.15 *Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 *And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 *¶Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

None of that has anything to do with the questions I asked. I reiterated the first question above, and I will reiterate the second here: Why did God create Adam and Eve, if He knew they were going to fall? What was the point?

 

[elected4ever]

That's not my point, e4e. I want to know why Jesus died for people He knew would reject Him.


None of that has anything to do with the questions I asked. I reiterated the first question above, and I will reiterate the second here: Why did God create Adam and Eve, if He knew they were going to fall? What was the point?

Just because Jesus knew that He would be rejected did not prevent Him from loving them.

Which would be more valuable to you, Something you create or your procreation? I suppose God could have left us as dumb animals driven by instinct alone. But then we would just be a creation and never have been able to become what God intends us to be. There had to be a method of procreating to become as God is. No created thing can be the express image of God. That has to be a procreation.

 

[Lighthouse]

Just because Jesus knew that He would be rejected did not prevent Him from loving them.

Is that what I asked? Hint: NO!

Which would be more valuable to you, Something you create or your procreation? I suppose God could have left us as dumb animals driven by instinct alone. But then we would just be a creation and never have been able to become what God intends us to be. There had to be a method of procreating to become as God is. No created thing can be the express image of God. That has to be a procreation.

And? What has that got to do with the subject?

 

[elected4ever]

Is that what I asked? Hint: NO!


And? What has that got to do with the subject?

Are you actually reading what i have written?What do you really wont? I thought I did answer your question.

 

[Clete]

e4e,

He didn't ask IF Jesus died for people he knew in advance would reject Him, He asked WHY? What's they point of doing such a thing? That's the question, and as far as I can tell you haven't asnwered it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Bob Hill]

Clete,

I know you know the answer. God so loved the world. I am thrilled. What is so thrilling to us undeserving, unjust, wicked, immoral, unrighteous sinners?

God sent His Son to die for us. He justified us by providing us with His righteousness. This was at a great price. Christ died. That’s what it says in Rom 3:21-28 “But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through [the] faithfulness of Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through His faithfulness, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.”

Not only that! We are also sealed. Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

We cannot lose our salvation in this dispensation of grace.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Clete]

Clete,

I know you know the answer. God so loved the world. I am thrilled. What is so thrilling to us undeserving, unjust, wicked, immoral, unrighteous sinners?

God sent His Son to die for us. He justified us by providing us with His righteousness. This was at a great price. Christ died. That’s what it says in Rom 3:21-28 “But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through [the] faithfulness of Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through His faithfulness, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.”

Not only that! We are also sealed. Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

We cannot lose our salvation in this dispensation of grace.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Indeed! The love of God is awesome!

I think however, that Lighthouse isn't attempting to point out God's amazing grace but rather a conflict in elected4ever's thinking.

The conflict, if I'm reading Lighthouse correctly, stems from the following statement made by elected4ever...

Yes, God foresaw from the beginning and what He foresaw He Foreknew and what he foreknew he foreordained and what He foreordained He did predestine. The fact is I don't know what my choices in life will be and nether do you but that does not keep God from knowing.

My suspicion is that elected4ever sees the conflict as well, if only intuitively, and is therefore evading answering the question in light of this previous comment.

Lighthouse has him stuck in the undesirable position of having to choose between saying that Jesus didn't die for the whole world or that He knowingly died for people that he ordained to go to Hell anyway or that his previous statement was wrong.

Checkmate!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Clete,

I know you know the answer. God so loved the world. I am thrilled. What is so thrilling to us undeserving, unjust, wicked, immoral, unrighteous sinners?

God sent His Son to die for us. He justified us by providing us with His righteousness. This was at a great price. Christ died. That’s what it says in Rom 3:21-28 “But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through [the] faithfulness of Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through His faithfulness, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.”

Not only that! We are also sealed. Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

We cannot lose our salvation in this dispensation of grace.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Why could they lose their salvation in a different dispensation? God was just as faithful, and man was just as fickle.

 

[Lighthouse]

Why could they lose their salvation in a different dispensation? God was just as faithful, and man was just as fickle.

The blood.