ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[godrulz]

God_Is_Truth Yes Jesus picked Judas for a specific purpose. The reference I use calls Judas "The Son Of Perdition" I think this is a specific reference to Judas, John 17:12 *While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I also believe there are different punishments in hell just as there are deferent reward in heaven. Judas' punishment was particularly harsh I think.

God gets glory from all men. wither good or bad. Even those who hate God will wind up doing the will of God and God will get the glory. That is another study for another tread.

Hitler was pure heinous evil. There is no inherent good in the slaughter of Jews. God redeemed some situations despite Hitler (he was stopped; good acts were performed to save people; some became Christians through the persecution, etc.).

John 17 is late in the chronology. At this point, Jesus knew that Judas had gone bad. It does not mean this was so earlier in the Gospel.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

God_Is_Truth Yes Jesus picked Judas for a specific purpose. The reference I use calls Judas "The Son Of Perdition" I think this is a specific reference to Judas, John 17:12 *While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

i don't see how that verse supports it. all that verse says is that the only one Jesus lost was Judas, the son of perdition, so that the scripture might be fulfilled. nothing is said about purpose, predestination, or the inability to repent.

I also believe there are different punishments in hell just as there are deferent reward in heaven. Judas' punishment was particularly harsh I think.

God gets glory from all men. wither good or bad. Even those who hate God will wind up doing the will of God and God will get the glory. That is another study for another tread.

yes, topics for another thread. but you didn't answer my question at all, which is pertinent to this thread.

why did Jesus say it would have been good for Judas (the betrayer) to not have been born, if Judas was predestined (purposed) to betray Jesus?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

You make your own choices and God does know what they will be and he loves you anyway. Isn't that wonderful. He even saved you in spite of them.

it's only wonderful if there is moral accountability for one's actions. without free will, there is none. And if God knows in advance what we'll do, we don't have free will, and are therefore not morally accountable for our actions. so no, it doesn't make sense to say it's wonderful at all. that would just be how it is.

 

[elected4ever]

Jesus said that Judas was a devil, not that he became one. It is also apparent that that Judas was picked to fulfill a particular mission. Judas was not saved and would never be saved.

 

[godrulz]

Jesus said that Judas was a devil, not that he became one. It is also apparent that that Judas was picked to fulfill a particular mission. Judas was not saved and would never be saved.

I was a husband in 1985. I was not always a husband. I have researched tenses and chronology relating to Judas (vs isolated text). It was true that he was a devil at the time Jesus spoke it. Does it mean he was a devil a trillion years ago before the man Judas even existed? God did not know a nonentity. If Judas' particular parents did not have sex, the man Judas would not even have existed. Did God make Judas a devil in the womb? When did he become such? Your view is problematic and contrary to other texts and the revelation of God's character and ways. Judas fulfilled a role, but that does not mean God was behind it or predestined it from all eternity. God creatively and responsively works within the variables that develop in our world.

If you believe in a future Antichrist, do you really think God picked a non-existent individual from trillions of years ago to be this man and to be damned with no choice? There are cases where God had intentions for people, but they did not fulfill their destiny. God does not micromanage and undermine the significant freedom of his creatures. He works providentially within history and is able to bring His overall purposes to pass despite contingencies. If someone did not obey the call to take the Gospel to Africa, God would have raised someone else up. It is a wrong inference to assume that only one person in history could do it. Saul let God down, so God replaced him. If Saul was faithful, he would have remained king.

Do you believe there is only one person you could have married? Did God arrange this from all eternity? Could you have married someone else and been in God's will? What was your role vs God's role in marriage, career choice, procreation, etc.?

Do you believe in double predestination? If so, you need to revisit the revelation of God.

 

[Clete]

e4e is being intentionally unresponsive. You guys are wasting your time. I'm outa here (for now).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[elected4ever]

I was a husband in 1985. I was not always a husband. I have researched tenses and chronology relating to Judas (vs isolated text). It was true that he was a devil at the time Jesus spoke it. Does it mean he was a devil a trillion years ago before the man Judas even existed? God did not know a nonentity. If Judas' particular parents did not have sex, the man Judas would not even have existed. Did God make Judas a devil in the womb? When did he become such? Your view is problematic and contrary to other texts and the revelation of God's character and ways. Judas fulfilled a role, but that does not mean God was behind it or predestined it from all eternity. God creatively and responsively works within the variables that develop in our world.

If you believe in a future Antichrist, do you really think God picked a non-existent individual from trillions of years ago to be this man and to be damned with no choice? There are cases where God had intentions for people, but they did not fulfill their destiny. God does not micromanage and undermine the significant freedom of his creatures. He works providentially within history and is able to bring His overall purposes to pass despite contingencies. If someone did not obey the call to take the Gospel to Africa, God would have raised someone else up. It is a wrong inference to assume that only one person in history could do it. Saul let God down, so God replaced him. If Saul was faithful, he would have remained king.

Do you believe there is only one person you could have married? Did God arrange this from all eternity? Could you have married someone else and been in God's will? What was your role vs God's role in marriage, career choice, procreation, etc.?

Do you believe in double predestination? If so, you need to revisit the revelation of God.

Yes, God foresaw from the beginning and what He foresaw He Foreknew and and what he foreknew he foreordained and what He foreordained He did predestine. The fact is I don't know what my choices in life will be and nether do you but that does not keep God from knowing. :cheers:

 

[Clete]

Yes, God foresaw from the beginning and what He foresaw He Foreknew and and what he foreknew he foreordained and what He foreordained He did predestine. The fact is I don't know what my choices in life will be and nether do you but that does not keep God from knowing. :cheers:

Okay, I'll try one last time...

You left the line of thinking incomplete. If your interpretion of the passage you are quoting is correct then we do not have free will because God's knowledge would preclude your ability to do other than what He has always known you would/will do. Holding to both free will and divine foreknowledge is irrational. It ignores what the definition of freedom is.

Now, I know you understand my argument, the question is will you continue to blow it off or will you address it?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Jesus said that Judas was a devil, not that he became one. It is also apparent that that Judas was picked to fulfill a particular mission. Judas was not saved and would never be saved.

Peter was also called a devil by Jesus, and yet we know he was saved. You have yet to show sufficient evidence that Judas was chosen intentionally for betrayal. we already agree that Judas did not die saved.

 

[godrulz]

Yes, God foresaw from the beginning and what He foresaw He Foreknew and and what he foreknew he foreordained and what He foreordained He did predestine. The fact is I don't know what my choices in life will be and nether do you but that does not keep God from knowing. :cheers:

How did God know from all eternity that I was going tofkghst[ zhjj4[03tgeoijhnvkjdfbnkniudfvihndividv c mncxfibvdbvdbbh947GUYUYYOUUD 87O6E D C squish these keys to produce this mess? This was out of character and random. If He foreknew this trillions of years ago, the future is no different than the fixed past as both are totally seeable/knowable. This is contrary to Scripture where we see the personal, Living God having a history (His Story). The divine life unfolds sequentially (succession/duration= endless time vs timelessness). Saying that creation, Fall, incarnation, cross, Acts, 2005, Second Coming, Millennium, etc. all are simultaneous to God, is contrary to the most basic reading of Scripture. It is a sheer Platonic/Augustinian construct that is foreign to the Hebraic unfolding of history. Accept the text at face value.

The other way He could know that I am going to jfdg j30¨”ÔÓB VKJDFOFNNNJNBJBHN is for Him to foreordain and somehow cause me to jgoegoethhghegghh (I am normally a good typer and speller). Free will to type is self-evident. God is not causing my creative thoughts and finger movements.

Simple foreknowledge is a useless construct that is not defensible from the nature of reality or God's self revelation. God is responsive and omnicompetent to the contingencies in the world (the type of world that He sovereignly chose to create vs a deterministic, knowable world). He does not need nor can He know all future mundane and moral choices. His control is providential, not meticulous. "Simple foreknowledge is an ancient view whose value for divine providence is often overestimated..." (Sanders). How can God intervene in what He foresees? Present knowledge is more than coherent to explain how God can providentially control His universe without negating freedom. It can be demonstrated that simple foreknowledge is incompatible with libertarian freedom. Unless one investigates the biblical and philosophical/logical evidence, one will wrongly and simplistly accept a traditional but problematic view. There is no compromise to God's nature or character with understanding His revelation at face value (the past, present, future are different; God can and does change His mind at times; God becomes aware of somethings as they come into reality; God does not control every random atom and choice in the universe, etc....He sustains creation, but He does not cause murder, sin, evil, car accidents, lottery wins, etc.).

We can trust God with the future due to His faithful character, not a specious metaphysical concept that locks God into a fatalistic future and makes Him absolutely unchangeable. While His character and nature is unchangeable, His relations, experiences, actionsl, thoughts, and feelings must change or He becomes static, impersonal, and a stone idol. God is both faithful and free. Immutability makes Him faithful, but not free. The Platonic idea (argument from perfection...if He changes, He is not perfect nonsense) takes away His freedom and sovereignty. Its influence on traditional doctrine through Augustine must be discerned to develop a biblical understanding of God's self-revelation.

 

[Lighthouse]

I think e4e is too afraid to face the idea we are presenting because of what it will do to what he's always held true. It's a difficult thinkg to let go of something you beleive so strongly, and it shakes your faith. I just hope he can learn to face it, because it will make his faith stronger when it's all settled.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

I just hope he can learn to face it, because it will make his faith stronger when it's all settled.

"when it's all settled"

no pun intended?

 

[Lighthouse]

"when it's all settled"

no pun intended?

:chuckle:

 

[elected4ever]

Peter was also called a devil by Jesus, and yet we know he was saved. You have yet to show sufficient evidence that Judas was chosen intentionally for betrayal. we already agree that Judas did not die saved.

Jesus called Peter Satan or accuser not devil. Jesus had just told the disciples what was going to happen to Him. Peter essentially accused Jesus of lying hence the name accuser or satan. Satan in this case is not a proper name and it should be spelled with a shall s.

 

[elected4ever]

I think e4e is too afraid to face the idea we are presenting because of what it will do to what he's always held true. It's a difficult thinkg to let go of something you beleive so strongly, and it shakes your faith. I just hope he can learn to face it, because it will make his faith stronger when it's all settled.

Not so bro. :down:

 

[Mr. 5020]

I think e4e is too afraid to face the idea we are presenting because of what it will do to what he's always held true. It's a difficult thinkg to let go of something you beleive so strongly, and it shakes your faith. I just hope he can learn to face it, because it will make his faith stronger when it's all settled.

Perhaps you are the one that is wrong.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Jesus called Peter Satan or accuser not devil.

Satan is the devil. to act in any accordance similar to how Satan acts is thus to act as a devil. anything that opposes God is of Satan, and thus of the devil. the terms are therefore interchangeable.

Jesus had just told the disciples what was going to happen to Him. Peter essentially accused Jesus of lying hence the name accuser or satan. Satan in this case is not a proper name and it should be spelled with a shall s.

I know he didn't mean Peter was literally Satan. the point is that one can be called "of the devil" and still be saved, evidenced by Peter. thus, just because Judas was called it at one point does not mean he was purposed, necessarily, for it and had no opportunity to be saved.

I am still waiting for an answer to this question by the way

why did Jesus say it would have been good for Judas (the betrayer) to not have been born, if Judas was predestined (purposed) to betray Jesus?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Perhaps you are the one that is wrong.

Feel free to show us how

 

[Bob Hill]

One of the most wonderful things about our God is that He is able to change His mind. He is not locked into a future that has not happened like many people believe. Here are some references which use repent with men. I’ll use bold letters to show the translation of the Hebrew word, nacham.
Ex 13:17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.
Job 42:6 Therefore I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes.
Jer 8:6 I listened and heard, but they do not speak aright. No man repented of his wickedness, saying, what have I done? Everyone turned to his own course, as the horse rushes into the battle.
Jer 31:19 Surely, after my turning, I repented; And after I was instructed, I struck myself on the thigh; I was ashamed, yes, even humiliated, because I bore the reproach of my youth. 20 Is Ephraim My dear son? Is he a pleasant child? For though I spoke against him, I earnestly remember him still; Therefore My heart yearns for him; I will surely have mercy on him, says the Lord.

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

It may sound amazing to some Christians, but our wonderful God actually changes His mind or, repents. Now, here are some of the references which use the Hebrew word, nacham, repent, in relation to God.

Ex 32:9-14 And the Lord said to Moses, I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation. 11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, `He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever. 14 So the Lord repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Jud 2:18 And when the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the Lord repented because of their groaning because of those who oppressed them and harassed them.
1 Sa 15:11,29,35 I repent that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments. And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the Lord all night. 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent. For He is not a man, that He should repent. 35 And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord repented that He had made Saul king over Israel.
2 Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, It is enough; now restrain your hand.
1 Chr 21:1,15 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 15 And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and repented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, It is enough; now restrain your hand. And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.
Psa 90:13 Return, O Lord! How long? And [repent concerning] Your servants.
Psa 106:45 And for their sake He remembered His covenant and repented according to the multitude of His mercies.
Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn and the heavens above be black because I have spoken. I have purposed and will not repent, nor will I turn back from it.
Jer 15:6 You have forsaken Me, says the Lord, You have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of repenting!
Jer 18:7-10 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
Jer 20:16 And let that man be like the cities which the Lord overthrew, and did not repent; Let him hear the cry in the morning and the shouting at noon.
Jer 26:3,13,19 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings. 13 Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; then the Lord will repent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you. 19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and seek the Lords favor? And the Lord repented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them. But we are doing great evil against ourselves.
Jer 42:10 If you will still remain in this land, then I will build you and not pull you down, and I will plant you and not pluck you up. For I repent concerning the disaster that I have brought upon you.
Eze 24:14 I, the Lord, have spoken it; It shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not hold back, Nor will I spare, Nor will I repent; According to your ways and according to your deeds they will judge you, says the Lord God.
Joel 2:13,14 So rend your heart, and not your garments; Return to the Lord your God, For He is gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, and of great kindness; And He repents from doing harm. 14 Who knows if He will turn and repent, and leave a blessing behind Him – A grain offering and a drink offering for the Lord your God?
Amos 7:3-6 So the Lord repented concerning this. It shall not be, said the Lord. 4 Thus the Lord God showed me: Behold, the Lord God called for conflict by fire, and it consumed the great deep and devoured the territory. 5 Then I said: O Lord God, cease, I pray! Oh, that Jacob may stand, For he is small! 6 So the Lord repented concerning this. This also shall not be, said the Lord God.
Jon 3:9-4:2 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? 10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. 4:1 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who repents from doing harm.
Zec 8:14,15 For thus says the Lord of hosts: Just as I determined to punish you when your fathers provoked Me to wrath, says the Lord of hosts, and I would not repent, 15 so again in these days I am determined to do good to Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.

God is free to change His mind anytime He wants to, but there are some things He says He will not repent, or change.

Bob Hill