ECT Hebrews- Problem verses for Interplanner

Interplanner said:

which is?

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1Th 4:17* Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.*
1Th 4:18* Wherefore comfort one another with these words.*


Do you comfort other believers with Paul's words?

What a quaint old cliche--problem verses!

Interplanner said:

I don't know what to do with a person who can't write more than about 6 words at a time, all glib, all cliches, quaint, clipped, for comedy. Not qualified to navigate the Bible, for sure.

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:chuckle:

steko said:

Yep, CH Dodd(realized eschatology) > George Eldon Ladd(classical millennialism) > some Messianic Jews and... Progressive dispensationalists, for sure.

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Or like you say, just read the text honestly. But not compartmentalized like fundamentalist D'ist who is against history, grammar and Josephus.

steko said:

1Th 4:17* Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.*
1Th 4:18* Wherefore comfort one another with these words.*


Do you comfort other believers with Paul's words?

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Where does Paul say: "and then after the rapture, Jesus comes back 7 years later with those He raptured, rebuilds the temple, sits on a man made throne, and oversees animal sacrifices for sin atonement again"?

?????

tetelestai said:

LOL.....The Apostle Paul never preached about a rapture.

There was no such thing taught in all of Christendom until Darby invented it in 1830.

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Liar or idiot or both.

tetelestai said:

The only way to inherit anything is in Christ Jesus.

(Rom 4:13 KJV) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

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You are still avoiding to answer what earth means in Mat 5:5..

steko said:

Liar or idiot or both.

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For many years on TOL, I have challenged every Darby Follower on TOL to show anyone teaching a rapture before Darby. As of this post, not one Darby Follower has been able to do so.

Some Darby Followers have desperately tried, by copying and pasting stuff from Dispensational websites. However, I have showed that everyone of those attempts were excerpts taken out of context, that had nothing to do with Darby's rapture.

No matter how much you Darby Followers hate to hear it, the fact remains, that Dispensationalism, and the rapture did not exist until Darby invented them in 1830.

Some change does take place at the coming 'we shall be changed', but the D'ist/futurist thing was a separate from the coming thing that involved a whole industry of guess where to put 500 moving parts over 7 years. No such thing in the NT. The Rev is not for prognostication; very little of the OT is.

steko said:

1Th 4:17* Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.*
1Th 4:18* Wherefore comfort one another with these words.*


Do you comfort other believers with Paul's words?

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I wonder why he only mentioned it once but mentioned comfort a hundred times?

steko said:

Whatever.
I believe in Paul's account of the rapture.

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Yeppers.
It's a very good source to believe.

tetelestai said:

Where does Paul say: "and then after the rapture, Jesus comes back 7 years later with those He raptured, rebuilds the temple, sits on a man made throne, and oversees animal sacrifices for sin atonement again"?

?????

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That's another question.

Did Paul refer to a rapture of believers or not?

Tambora said:

Well Mr. Preterist. tell us what "earth" they are going to inherit in Mat 5:5 and stop avoiding it.

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It means those who learn to fear the Lord and bridle their strength in serving Him shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psa 37:11KJV

Tambora said:

You are still avoiding to answer what earth means in Mat 5:5..

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As I said earlier, nobody inherits anything without being in Christ Jesus.

(John 16:13) "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

Those in Christ Jesus have overcome the world, and have peace.

steko said:

I understand it as those of Israel(the remnant) who are meek shall inherit the land[Heb-eretz/Grk-ge.

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That's fine. My point wasn't the race of the meek, but that they, whomever they are, would become meek, and first, is integral to the prophecy. Chronologically it goes, people become meek (they're not meek at first), and then they inherit the earth. It isn't written with sneakiness, so there's no reason to believe that they'd inherit the earth first, and then become meek later.

Meekness as I understand it, is like a tamed horse---"Phenomenal cosmic powers! I_{tty-bitty living space};"¹ you're hopefully volunteeredly tamed, but you might be trained; no matter your power. That's what meekness means to me. That's going to happen, to whomever inherits the earth. Either voluntarily or otherwise.


¹ - Aladdin

steko said:

Did Paul refer to a rapture of believers or not?

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No.

Paul said that after the resurrection, those who are ALIVE AND REMAIN will be caught up with those who went first.

(1 Thess 4:17 KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You need to ask yourself why Paul used the phrase "alive and remain". Especially, why he used the word "remain".

When a believer dies today, that believer is instantly caught up to meet the Lord, along with all the other believers who were there before said believer.

Otherwise, where do dead believers go who die today?

Interplanner said:

I wonder why he only mentioned it once but mentioned comfort a hundred times?

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Was he speaking of that particular event when he admonished believers to comfort one another with those words, or not?

Paul, here, speaks of the same event:

1Co 15:51* Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,*

Php 3:20* For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:*
Php 3:21* Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.*


So... does Paul speak of a rapture of believers, or not?

Paul uses the word 'comfort' with regard to various situations.

So what?

Does he ever refer at least one time to a rapture of believers?

If he mentioned it only one time, would that make him wrong?

Nihilo said:

[​

​

That's fine. My point wasn't the race of the meek, but that they, whomever they are, would become meek, and first, is integral to the prophecy. Chronologically it goes, people become meek (they're not meek at first), and then they inherit the earth. It isn't written with sneakiness, so there's no reason to believe that they'd inherit the earth first, and then become meek later.

Meekness as I understand it, is like a tamed horse---"Phenomenal cosmic powers! I_{tty-bitty living space};"¹ you're hopefully volunteeredly tamed, but you might be trained; no matter your power. That's what meekness means to me. That's going to happen, to whomever inherits the earth. Either voluntarily or otherwise.


¹ - Aladdin

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Yes, 'become meek'.
Thank you.

:thumb:

steko said:

Yes, 'become meek'.
Thank you.

:thumb:

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Thank you. :e4e:

tetelestai said:

No.

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Did, too.

Paul said that after the resurrection, those who are ALIVE AND REMAIN will be caught up with those who went first.

(1 Thess 4:17 KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You need to ask yourself why Paul used the phrase "alive and remain". Especially, why he used the word "remain".

When a believer dies today, that believer is instantly caught up to meet the Lord, along with all the other believers who were there before said believer.

Otherwise, where do dead believers go who die today?

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Believer's spirits go to be present with the Lord at the point of physical death.

Since you don't believe in the future physical resurrection of believer's bodies, there is no point discussing this.
We're talking past one another.
Paul is talking about that future one time event, the rapture and resurrection of the body when the Lord Jesus comes in the air to gather His saints to Himself.

He is not talking about a one by one over a period of time that believers die and go to be with the Lord.
He does that in 2Co 5 and Phil 1.

In 1Thess 4, he is speaking of an assembly being gathered up together at the same time.
The only separation in the event is the short space between those saints who are resurrected from the grave and those saints who are still standing around in physical bodies after them.

1Th 4:17* Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.*

caught up- harpazo[Latin- rapier me- rapture]

together- hama- at the same time

with- sun

them - autos

It happens simultaneously but with a short delay between the saints in the grave and the saints who are standing around at the event.

"each in his own order 1Co 15" so chronologically those who died earlier will be raised first and then those who have not died will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.