The Trinity

The Trinity


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Yes, but did God exist prior to the Universe?
You have a fixation on time.

Just exactly HOW can it be described to suit you that God has ALWAYS existed and that God created a TIME/SPACE universe?

The problem is that YOU cannot think of anything outside of the created universe.

Only created things exist in the time/space universe and God is NOT created.

That God can interact with us IN TIME is His prerogative as the Creator of all things.
 

JudgeRightly

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You have a fixation on time.

I'm trying to establish something, RD, but it requires interaction from those in this thread.

Just exactly HOW can it be described to suit you that God has ALWAYS existed and that God created a TIME/SPACE universe?

It suits me quite well. God has always existed for an eternity past, then created the universe (not Time, which was not created) on the first day of recorded history, and on the sixth day of recorded history He created Man, on the seventh, He rested, and the rest is history.

The problem is that YOU cannot think of anything outside of the created universe.

Only created things exist in the time/space universe and God is NOT created.

That God can interact with us IN TIME is His prerogative as the Creator of all things.

Are you refusing to answer my question? My question is: Did God exist before/prior to the Universe?

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I'm trying to establish something, RD, but it requires interaction from those in this thread.
Your premise is wrong and therefore your conclusion is fallacious.

It suits me quite well. God has always existed for an eternity past, then created the universe (not Time, which was not created) on the first day of recorded history, and on the sixth day of recorded history He created Man, on the seventh, He rested, and the rest is history.
You refuse to use any reference OTHER THAN TIME. That is your fallacious premise.

Are you refusing to answer my question? My question is: Did God exist before/prior to the Universe?
I am answering your question, but you refuse to hear it because you refuse to give up your fallacious premise.

You ASSUME time and then proceed .....

I ASSUME God and then proceed ....

The question "Did God exist before/prior to the universe?" is bogus from the start.
 

JudgeRightly

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Your premise is wrong and therefore your conclusion is fallacious.


You refuse to use any reference OTHER THAN TIME. That is your fallacious premise.


I am answering your question, but you refuse to hear it because you refuse to give up your fallacious premise.

You ASSUME time and then proceed .....

I ASSUME God and then proceed ....

The question "Did God exist before/prior to the universe?" is bogus from the start.
So then do you think that God exists in an eternal "now"?

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Right Divider

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So then do you think that God exists in an eternal "now"?
In a sense, sure. God can be anywhere any time that He wants (in other words, everywhere all of the time).

This is one of the reasons that God knows the end from the beginning.

God exists. He has always existed.

I'm curious what you think the term "eternity past" means. How can time go back forever?
 

Tambora

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There doesn't have to be movement to have time.
A rock doesn't move, but the whole time it wasn't moving there was still time.
 

JudgeRightly

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Your premise is wrong and therefore your conclusion is fallacious.

My premise is explained below.

You refuse to use any reference OTHER THAN TIME. That is your fallacious premise.

Because God exists inside of Time. An explanation is below.

I am answering your question, but you refuse to hear it because you refuse to give up your fallacious premise.

You ASSUME time and then proceed .....

I ASSUME God and then proceed ....

Wrong, I assume God exists inside of Time, and then proceed. Explanation below.

The question "Did God exist before/prior to the universe?" is bogus from the start.

Time cannot be created. Why? Because creation requires going from non-existence to existence, which itself is a sequence, a before and after. And any before and after sequence requires time. Therefore, time is a prerequisite for creating. Thus, time itself cannot be created. This answers your question below: "How can time go back forever?"

In a sense, sure. God can be anywhere any time that He wants (in other words, everywhere all of the time).

So then is Jesus eternally suffering on the cross? Can God go back and experience that again? (Note: I'm not asking if He would, I'm asking if He could.)

This is one of the reasons that God knows the end from the beginning.

I think you misread the verse you get that from. The verse does not say "I . . . know the beginning and the end," it says "I . . . am the beginning and the end."

God exists. He has always existed.

No disagreement there.

I'm curious what you think the term "eternity past" means. How can time go back forever?

You cannot find in the Bible any passage where it refers to God outside of time. That idea came from Plato, and was repeated by Platonists, and unfortunately is taught in seminary schools. In fact, the Hebrew and Greek terms in the*Bible*about God and time are TOTALLY different and refer not to timelessness (which the Greek pagans used) but to unending duration. The phrases in the Scriptures all speak of God existing through*unending time*and an*everlasting*duration. The above*timelessness*terms are foreign to the reader of God's Word, whereas the Bible's many terms are all so very familiar from our reading of Scripture. Here are some examples of this:

is - and was - and is to come - Whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting*- Forever and ever - The Ancient of Days - From before the ages of the ages - From ancient times - the everlasting God - He continues forever - From of old - Remains forever - Immortal - The Lord shall endure forever - Who lives forever - God’s years - manifest in His own time - Everlasting Father - Alive forevermore - Always lives - Forever - Continually - God’s years never end - From everlasting to everlasting - From that time forward, even forever - And of His kingdom there will be no end.​

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My premise is explained below.

Because God exists inside of Time. An explanation is below.

Wrong, I assume God exists inside of Time, and then proceed. Explanation below.

Time cannot be created. Why? Because creation requires going from non-existence to existence, which itself is a sequence, a before and after. And any before and after sequence requires time. Therefore, time is a prerequisite for creating. Thus, time itself cannot be created. This answers your question below: "How can time go back forever?"

So then is Jesus eternally suffering on the cross? Can God go back and experience that again? (Note: I'm not asking if He would, I'm asking if He could.)

I think you misread the verse you get that from. The verse does not say "I . . . know the beginning and the end," it says "I . . . am the beginning and the end."

No disagreement there.

You cannot find in the Bible any passage where it refers to God outside of time. That idea came from Plato, and was repeated by Platonists, and unfortunately is taught in seminary schools. In fact, the Hebrew and Greek terms in the*Bible*about God and time are TOTALLY different and refer not to timelessness (which the Greek pagans used) but to unending duration. The phrases in the Scriptures all speak of God existing through*unending time*and an*everlasting*duration. The above*timelessness*terms are foreign to the reader of God's Word, whereas the Bible's many terms are all so very familiar from our reading of Scripture. Here are some examples of this:
is - and was - and is to come - Whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting*- Forever and ever - The Ancient of Days - From before the ages of the ages - From ancient times - the everlasting God - He continues forever - From of old - Remains forever - Immortal - The Lord shall endure forever - Who lives forever - God’s years - manifest in His own time - Everlasting Father - Alive forevermore - Always lives - Forever - Continually - God’s years never end - From everlasting to everlasting - From that time forward, even forever - And of His kingdom there will be no end.​

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It sounds like time is your god. For you, time has always existed.

How old is God?
 

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God is eternal. He has no beginning.

If time is a precondition of creation, then how can God create time?

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Time is not a precondition. Your arguments are fallacious.

You beg the question by always requiring the use of "time language".

Time and space are indivisible. They do not exist except together.

According to you time in eternal.

In the beginning.... is NOT a statement of something that happened in time.
 

JudgeRightly

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Time is not a precondition. Your arguments are fallacious.

How is time not a precondition of creating? Explain please, otherwise stop calling my arguments fallacious.

You beg the question by always requiring the use of "time language".

I challenge you to NOT use "time language."

Time and space indivisible. They do not exist except together.

Scripture does not say that God created time. It says that God created the Heavens and the Earth, light and life. But not time.

According to you time in eternal.

No, according to logic, time has no beginning and no end, for in order to have a beginning and an end, there has to be a 'before' and 'after,'

In the beginning.... is NOT a statement of something that happened in time.

You're gonna have to explain that one to me. "In the beginning" refers to the moment in history where recorded history begins, not the creation of time (for the stated reasons that time cannot be created).

Also, still waiting on you to give Scripture where it refers to God as being outside of time.

Let's demonstrate the aforementioned proof that God did not create time again, this time using only Bible excerpts. Those who claim that God is outside of time also frequently use the unbiblical phrase, "the eternal state." Actually, every moment is in the eternal state, including those moments before creation, all those since, and including those that will follow the New Creation. The following purely scriptural phrases show that in the "eternal state," WHO GOD WAS in eternity past differs from WHO GOD IS now and in eternity future. The differences do not include anything like an abandonment of His fundamental attributes (which are that He is Living, Personal, Relational, Good, and Loving), but rather, they are divine expressions of these attributes. For:

"The Father… is Spirit" and "invisible," "from of old, from everlasting," just "like the Son of God." He "loved [the Son] before the foundation of the world." Yet "God was manifested in the flesh" for "the Word BECAME flesh," having "partaken of flesh and blood," and "coming in the likeness of men" "to be made like His brethren." So "He is the SON OF MAN," "from the seed of David," "Jesus Christ… the Son of Abraham." And "this MAN, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God." And "He ever lives to make intercession," for "the Mediator between God and men" is "the MAN Christ Jesus." So "God… will judge the world… by the MAN whom He has ordained," and "in the regeneration… the SON OF MAN sits on the throne of His glory."​

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How is time not a precondition of creating? Explain please, otherwise stop calling my arguments fallacious.
Time and space are inseparable. There really is no such thing as time and space, there is timespace.

I challenge you to NOT use "time language."
I couldn't agree more. It is VERY difficult for humans that live in timespace to NOT use that language. The problem is that YOU insist the this language defines the argument. You are begging the question.

Scripture does not say that God created time. It says that God created the Heavens and the Earth, light and life. But not time.
The Bible does NOT give every detail of the creation. It does not mention gravity either.

No, according to logic, time has no beginning and no end, for in order to have a beginning and an end, there has to be a 'before' and 'after,'
Time has no beginning?

See, again you're using time language to prove time. That's circular reasoning.

You're gonna have to explain that one to me. "In the beginning" refers to the moment in history where recorded history begins, not the creation of time (for the stated reasons that time cannot be created).
Once again, there is no human language to describe such a thing. Do you think that the Bible contains all knowledge of God and His activities and abilities?

Also, still waiting on you to give Scripture where it refers to God as being outside of time.
He is eternal. That is outside of time. God is not constrained by timespace.
 

JudgeRightly

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Time and space are inseparable. There really is no such thing as time and space, there is timespace.


I couldn't agree more. It is VERY difficult for humans that live in timespace to NOT use that language. The problem is that YOU insist the this language defines the argument. You are begging the question.


The Bible does NOT give every detail of the creation. It does not mention gravity either.


Time has no beginning?

See, again you're using time language to prove time. That's circular reasoning.


Once again, there is no human language to describe such a thing. Do you think that the Bible contains all knowledge of God and His activities and abilities?


He is eternal. That is outside of time. God is not constrained by timespace.
Again, to create something means that it goes from nonexistence to existence. For there to be a sequence of events, there must be time to have a sequence. Therefore time CANNOT be created, for to create time requires time to already be in existence.

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Right Divider

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Again, to create something means that it goes from nonexistence to existence. For there to be a sequence of events, there must be time to have a sequence. Therefore time CANNOT be created, for to create time requires time to already be in existence.
You're stuck in time, God is not.
 
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