The Trinity

[JudgeRightly]

• I have never said that the future is "settled" (in the sense that you try force upon the idea).
• God DOES know exactly what will happen
• The Bible says that God knows the END from the BEGINNING.
• That is a statement of COMPLETE knowledge of everything.

I'm glad you quoted the passage you are referring to below, so I can point out where your error is.

Isa 46:10 (46:10) "Declaring the end from the beginning"

Declaring is not the same as knowing.

Do you believe that when God gives prophecies about the future that He's just guessing?

That is not the God of the Bible.

I'd like for you to read this Battle Royale, as it addresses this entire topic.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?t=21711

Back to the previous topic, "Is God outside of time," I'm still waiting for you to show me scripture where it says or indicates that God is outside of time. I submit to you that you cannot, for the Bible shows that God has a past, that He has a future, and that He is not outside of time.

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[Right Divider]

I'm glad you quoted the passage you are referring to below, so I can point out where your error is.

Declaring is not the same as knowing.

Declaring is even MORE than knowing. It is DETERMINING what will happen with 100% certainty.

I'd like for you to read this Battle Royale, as it addresses this entire topic.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?t=21711

Back to the previous topic, "Is God outside of time," I'm still waiting for you to show me scripture where it says or indicates that God is outside of time. I submit to you that you cannot, for the Bible shows that God has a past, that He has a future, and that He is not outside of time.

Of course you are. Just because the Bible does not tell us something explicitly does NOT mean that it's not true.

I'm still going to tell you that your God is NOT the God of the Bible. That God knows all things.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Declaring is even MORE than knowing. It is DETERMINING what will happen with 100% certainty.

If I read a book and then at the end of it I say "this is the end of the book," I've declared the end of the book. Does that mean that before I started reading it I knew every word of the book? NO! It just means that I declare the end of the book from the beginning.

Of course you are. Just because the Bible does not tell us something explicitly does NOT mean that it's not true.

You need to reread what I said. I said:

I'm still waiting for you to show me scripture where it says or indicates that God is outside of time. I submit to you that you cannot, for the Bible shows that God has a past, that He has a future, and that He is not outside of time.

I did not ask only for scripture that states it explicitly. Remember, I have already given you proof-texts that show that God is not outside of time. So again, please show me where in Scripture it says or indicates that God is outside of time.

I'm still going to tell you that your God is NOT the God of the Bible. That God knows all things.

Again, see BR X for more of that topic.

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[JudgeRightly]

And? Quite irrelevant. And "The New And Improved Sports Bible" has "guts," in it, and "The Albert Camus/Jean Paul Sarte Bible" has "inner id" in it, and ...............................................

Confirmed: Your doctrine determines what the book should say. Correcting, "choosing" any translation, presupposes an authority over it.






Quite irrelevant, as "consensus" does not determine veracity.

You may not be part of the "King James Only" crowd, but I still think you should check out new.kgov.com/kjo. It talks about this general topic of "which Bible should we use."

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[john w]

You may not be part of the "King James Only" crowd, but I still think you should check out new.kgov.com/kjo. It talks about this general topic of "which Bible should we use."

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Quite irrelevant.

And, son, I have forgotten more than you know on "Which Version/What is the Bible," having studied the issue for over 15 years, so save your link(s)..

You may want to check out the definition of "bible believer."

Define bible believer.

"which Bible should we use?" is quite telling.

No, the question is not "which Bible should we use/prefer/like," for that presupposes an authority over it. The question is:

Which Bible do you believe?

That thought never occurs to most alleged "Christians."


Shazam, Gomer.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Quite irrelevant.

And, son, I have forgotten more than you know on "Which Version/What is the Bible," having studied the issue for over 15 years, so save your link(s)..

You may want to check out the definition of "bible believer."

Define bible believer.

"which Bible should we use?" is quite telling.

No, the question is not "which Bible should we use/prefer/like," for that presupposes an authority over it. The question is:

Which Bible do you believe?

That thought never occurs to most alleged "Christians."


Shazam, Gomer.

I believe the original Hebrew/Greek version. But since I can't read Hebrew or Greek, I use a version that is in my language.

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[Tambora]

• I have never said that the future is "settled" (in the sense that you try force upon the idea).
• God DOES know exactly what will happen
• The Bible says that God knows the END from the BEGINNING.
• That is a statement of COMPLETE knowledge of everything.

I'm glad you quoted the passage you are referring to below, so I can point out where your error is.

Isaiah 46:10 KJV
(10) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:



Declaring is not the same as knowing.

Not taking a side, ..... just wanted to make comment of another view of the passage.

Ever wondered why it says He declares the end from the beginning, instead of He declares the beginning to the end?
Seems kinda backwards the way it is said, doesn't it?
There might be a reason. :think:

Look at the previous verse:

Isaiah 46:9 KJV​

(9) Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,​

And continue:

(10) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:​

(11) Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.​

Some hold that these passages are not speaking of this being GOD declaring every detail of time, but is saying that what GOD has spoken/promised/prophesied (ie. from olden time, the beginning) He will do (later, the end).

In other words ...... He is declaring that the end (what will come to pass) is a surety because it has already been promised from the beginning (old promise made that they should remember).




:carryon:

 

[steko]

Another verse which might be considered in this discussion:

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

 

[john w]

I believe the original Hebrew/Greek version. But since I can't read Hebrew or Greek, I use a version that is in my language.

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1.You have the originals, do you?

2.

You may not be part of the "King James Only" crowd, ...,

So, you are part of the "Originals Only" crowd?



3.

I use a version that is in my language.

Observe: Bible correctors(in contrast to bible believers) "use/prefer/like" a version/translation, not believing any one of them, correcting them all.


Slower:Using/prefering/"liking" any bible presupposes an authority over it. I did not ask you what bible you use/prefer/like, as I like ice creme, .....not medicine. I asked:

What bible do you believe?


Bible correctors(in contrast to bible believers)do not answer that.

 

[Right Divider]

If I read a book and then at the end of it I say "this is the end of the book," I've declared the end of the book. Does that mean that before I started reading it I knew every word of the book? NO! It just means that I declare the end of the book from the beginning.

That is an incredibly poor "analogy", if it can even qualify as one.

You need to reread what I said. I said:

I did not ask only for scripture that states it explicitly. Remember, I have already given you proof-texts that show that God is not outside of time. So again, please show me where in Scripture it says or indicates that God is outside of time.

Time has a beginning or are trying to argue that time ITSELF is eternal?

Again, see BR X for more of that topic.

Gen 1:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:5) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
​

So you think that this was NOT the first day?

"Eternal" time makes no sense whatsoever. Only God is eternal.

You have a "god" who is just guessing when He prophecies about future events.

 

[JudgeRightly]

That is an incredibly poor "analogy", if it can even qualify as one.

Time has a beginning or are trying to argue that time ITSELF is eternal?

Time is an aspect of God's existence. Again, consider that in order to create something, it must go from non-existence to existence, which is a sequence. Without time, there is no such thing as a sequence, therefore you cannot create without time. It is a logical contradiction to state that time was created.

Gen 1:5 (AKJV/PCE)]​

(1:5) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.​

So you think that this was NOT the first day?

It was the first measured day, the first day of creation. Before creation, there was no need for measuring time, because God is eternal.

This gets back to my question about clocks. We measure many things by giving them names and assigning them values. For example, we define a second by a certain number of vibrations of an atom, a minute as 60 seconds, an hour by 60 minutes, a day as 24 hours, a week as 7 days, a month as 30 days (kgov.com/360), etc. But a measurement of time is not itself time. Just because God started to measure time does not mean that He created it.

"Eternal" time makes no sense whatsoever. Only God is eternal.

Time is an aspect of God.

You have a "god" who is just guessing when He prophecies about future events.

Did all prophecies in the Bible come to fruition?

Still waiting on your verses that indicate that God is outside of time.

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[Jerry Shugart]

Still waiting on your verses that indicate that God is outside of time.

Please consider these verses:

"He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time" (2 Tim. 1:9).​

This shows God existing in the eternal state, before the beginning of time. Here is another verse that demonstates that God's exists outside of time:

"in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time" (Titus 1:2).​

 

[JudgeRightly]

Please consider these verses:

"He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time" (2 Tim. 1:9).​

This shows God existing in the eternal state, before the beginning of time. Here is another verse that demonstates that God's exists outside of time:

"in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time" (Titus 1:2).​

From kgov.com/time:

Bad Translations:
- "Before time began" (2 Tim. 1:9 & Titus 1:2) is widely quoted yet in the Greek text of the New Testament there is no verb "began" in the original language. And the singular word "time" does not appear. Instead, Paul wrote, "before the times of the ages," which is very different from the way many of our Bible versions render this phrase, which translations do not flow from the grammar but from the translators' commitment to Greek philosophy.

- "Time shall be no more" (Rev. 10:6; hymns) is corrected even by Calvinist translators in virtually all modern versions as is also made overtly clear from the text and the context, "There will be no more delay!"

- "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" at Revelation 13:8 can be corrected (as at the*NIV footnote) by cross-referencing the passage with Revelation 17:8. For the Bible teaches that "only those written in the Lamb's Book of Life" (Rev. 21:27) shall be saved, and that God could save Old Testament believers because He looked forward to the cross, and He can save believers now because He looks backward to the cross. So in the Old Testament God looked forward and in the last two millennia He looks backward to that wonderful and yet terrible time. However, if Christ had been slain previously, before the foundation of the world, then there would have been no need for the righteous dead to wait in Abraham's Bosom "until the death of the one who is high priest in those days" (symbolizing Christ). The parallel passage at Revelation 17:8 shows that the qualifier does not apply to the slaying of Christ but to the wicked, "whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." This means that these evil men were not believers who had fallen away, but that their names were NEVER written in the book. (See a similar construct in Jeremiah 2:32.) Revelation 13:8 can even be seen as giving the title and sub-title of The Book of Life – Of the Lamb Slain.

Question for anyone who believes that God is outside of time:
Is there time in heaven?

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[Right Divider]

Time is an aspect of God's existence.

So God ages?

Again, consider that in order to create something, it must go from non-existence to existence, which is a sequence. Without time, there is no such thing as a sequence, therefore you cannot create without time. It is a logical contradiction to state that time was created.

The supposed contradiction comes about because of YOUR redefinition that it must be so. Time and space are inseparable as I told you before. One does not exist without the other.

It was the first measured day, the first day of creation. Before creation, there was no need for measuring time, because God is eternal.

How convenient for you. You get to make the definitions any way that you please and then you "win" the game.

This gets back to my question about clocks. We measure many things by giving them names and assigning them values. For example, we define a second by a certain number of vibrations of an atom, a minute as 60 seconds, an hour by 60 minutes, a day as 24 hours, a week as 7 days, a month as 30 days (kgov.com/360), etc. But a measurement of time is not itself time. Just because God started to measure time does not mean that He created it.

So there is something that exists that God did NOT create? Your story is just a mess.

Time is an aspect of God.

No, it is not and it will not become so just because you keep repeating it.

Did all prophecies in the Bible come to fruition?

If God says that something will happen, then it will happen.

Still waiting on your verses that indicate that God is outside of time.

:juggle:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul wrote, "before the times of the ages," which is very different from the way many of our Bible versions render this phrase, which translations do not flow from the grammar but from the translators' commitment to Greek philosophy.

"Ages" began with the creation. So since an "age" didn't begin until the creation then that means prior to the creation there was no "age." Therefore, prior to the creation there was no "time."

The meaning of the word "age" cannot be divorced from a "beginning," being defined as "the length of an existence extending from the beginning to any given time" (Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary).

Therefore, common sense dictates that before the times of the ages there was no time.

 

[Right Divider]

From kgov.com/time:


Question for anyone who believes that God is outside of time:
Is there time in heaven?

Gen 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Time is an aspect of God's existence. Again, consider that in order to create something, it must go from non-existence to existence, which is a sequence.

Our finite minds cannot understand the concept of "timelessness" so we cannot understand anything happening separate from a "sequence." Here is what Sir Robert Anderson wrote on the subject of "timelessness":

"One of the most popular systems of metaphysics is based upon the fact that certain of our ideas seem to spring from the essential constitution of the mind itself ; and these are not subject to our reason, but, on the contrary, they control it. A superficial thinker might suppose the powers of human imagination to be boundless. He can imagine the sun and moon and stars to disappear from the heavens, and the peopled earth to vanish from beneath his feet, leaving him a solitary unit in boundless space ; but let him try, pursuing still further his madman's dream, to grasp the thought of space itself being annihilated, and his mind, in obedience to some inexorable law, will refuse the conception altogether. Or, to take an illustration apter for my present purpose, wild fancy may thus change the universe into a blank, but, though there should remain no shadow and no dial, no sequence of events, the mind is utterly incapable of imagining how time could cease to flow. And the practical conclusion we arrive at is that our idea of "past, present, and future," like that of space, is not derived from experience, but depends upon a law imposed upon our reason by the God who made us." (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publishing, 1978], 77).​

 

[JudgeRightly]

"Ages" began with the creation. So since an "age" didn't begin until the creation then that means prior to the creation there was no "age." Therefore, prior to the creation there was no "time."

A measurement of time is not time itself. You seem to keep forgetting that. An "age" is a measurement of time.

The meaning of the word "age" cannot be divorced from a "beginning," being defined as "the length of an existence extending from the beginning to any given time"(Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary).

Thank you for confirming what I just said above, that age is a measurement. Also, the beginning of what? In this case, "beginning" refers to the act of creation.

Therefore, common sense dictates that before the times of the ages there was no time.

"Before" means sequence. And to have a sequence means to have time. You cannot have "before" if there is no time.

Does God experience changes in sequence? Or is God in an "Eternal Now"?

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[JudgeRightly]

So God ages?

Yes, God gets older every second, just like we do. God has a past. More on that later.

The supposed contradiction comes about because of YOUR redefinition that it must be so. Time and space are inseparable as I told you before. One does not exist without the other.

You're not being objective enough. You assume time and space are one. Consider for a moment that they are not.

How convenient for you. You get to make the definitions any way that you please and then you "win" the game.

Who said this was a game? If you don't think my definitions are suitable, please provide your own here, and then we can consider them. If you cannot provide alternate definitions, then stop complaining.

So there is something that exists that God did NOT create? Your story is just a mess.

Yes. God did not create time. Nor did He create sin or evil. Nor did He create darkness. None of those are "entities."

No, it is not and it will not become so just because you keep repeating it.

If God says that something will happen, then it will happen.

Jesus said he would return soon after He left the Earth, fully intending to return quickly, yet here we are, almost 2000 years later and He still has not come back. What happened? Did Jesus lie? NO! Of course not. What changed? It was the nation of Israel persecuting the saints. The tipping point was Saul. That's when God moved to plan B and grafted in the Gentiles after cutting Israel off, so that He could later graft His people in.

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[Right Divider]

Yes, God gets older every second, just like we do. God has a past. More on that later.

That is just so silly.

You're not being objective enough. You assume time and space are one. Consider for a moment that they are not.

No, I do NOT assume that they are one. They are demonstrably one. Time is NOT a simple linear progression as you assume. Study up on time dilation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation
http://creation.com/new-time-dilation-helps-creation-cosmology

Who said this was a game? If you don't think my definitions are suitable, please provide your own here, and then we can consider them. If you cannot provide alternate definitions, then stop complaining.

:banana:

Yes. God did not create time. Nor did He create sin or evil. Nor did He create darkness. None of those are "entities."

So by your judgement, God is NOT the creator of ALL things.... like the Bible says.

Jesus said he would return soon after He left the Earth, fully intending to return quickly, yet here we are, almost 2000 years later and He still has not come back. What happened? Did Jesus lie? NO! Of course not. What changed? It was the nation of Israel persecuting the saints. The tipping point was Saul. That's when God moved to plan B and grafted in the Gentiles after cutting Israel off, so that He could later graft His people in.

Ha ha ha ha..... the old "plan B"...... Nope. It was ALL in the plans all along.

2Tim 1:6-11 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:6) Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. (1:7) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. (1:8) Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; (1:9) Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, (1:10) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: (1:11) Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. ​

Your "god" is not the God of the Bible.

God is not done with Israel. They will be restored just like God said that they will.