Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

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Derf

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I think the sun moves around the earth like God tells us.
a7b415128cf26c95a34dac1f30ff477a.jpg

You realize, PJ, that the view the picture is showing is of a sun that is NOT directly over that spot, but some ways behind it, even in a flat earth concept. The hot spot is a reflection off the clouds or whatever is in the photo, similar to the following of the moon:
2403330696_e90408b9a5.jpg


Thus, whether intentionally or not, using the photo in your post and saying that the bright spot is a "hot spot" is deceptive...
 

patrick jane

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You realize, PJ, that the view the picture is showing is of a sun that is NOT directly over that spot, but some ways behind it, even in a flat earth concept. The hot spot is a reflection off the clouds or whatever is in the photo, similar to the following of the moon:


Thus, whether intentionally or not, using the photo in your post and saying that the bright spot is a "hot spot" is deceptive...
Yes, I use them for the view and the image, I can't control what text is put on them. I knew when a read that and saw it that it's not a "hot spot" because that doesn't happen on earth. I used common sense just like you but thanks for your deception concerns because I pointed out, you are using deceptive images of a red line showing curvature through plane windows. Just so you're aware, Derf.
 

Derf

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[MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION] - I don't see anything in those scripture that I interpret to be flat earth related. Heaven and and the sky are both part of the firmament according to scripture. Can you "debunk" any scriptures that I actually posted?
I haven't seen you give any kind of explanation about your scripture posts that suggests they are flat earth proofs.

How is "The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose." an indication of a flat earth?????????????

How is "Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun," an indication of a flat earth????????????
 

daqq

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Isaiah 14:12-17 KJV - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Where are the sides of the north?

The mountain of the congregation: Zion-Jerusalem of Above, (Psa48:2, Heb12:22-24).

Psalm 48:1-2 KJV
1 A Song and Psalm for the sons of Korah. Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.
2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Hebrews 12:22-24 KJV
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
 

steko

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Isaiah 14:12-17 KJV - [FONT="]How art thou [B]fallen from heaven[/B], O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations![/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="]13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]14 [/B][/FONT][B]I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;[/B] I will be like the most High.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.[/FONT]

[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]16 [/B][/FONT]They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Where are the sides of the north?[/FONT]

Psa_48:2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

Jerusalem
 

patrick jane

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I haven't seen you give any kind of explanation about your scripture posts that suggests they are flat earth proofs.

How is "The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose." an indication of a flat earth?????????????

How is "Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun," an indication of a flat earth????????????
I certainly have many many times and get accused of repeating myself. I'll do them again but you can find them yourself and rebut them yourself as I didn't interpret them from a flat earth pastor. You found an ant-flat earth pastor and you're using his interpretations. Have I ever said proof about the scriptures? Even "proofs" I've never said. I maintain it's possible. Don't be a little girl and post 8 question marks before you know my interpretations. For that, you can find my interpretations yourself. I'll give you a hint. Earth is the focus and center of God's greatest creation, mankind and earth. That's why God set the earth as a tabernacle FOR the sun. The sun runs a circuit, running a race. Does that sound to you like the sun is moving or the earth? God never says the earth moves, follows the sun, runs a race OR a circuit, nor PLACED IN the firmament. You can find the rest and try doing it yourself on interpreting after that we can both post from any pastor we want. Try videos, they seem popular.
 

Sherman

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This website is attempting to cut through the flat earth arguments. He does a pretty good job.

This particular page (http://flatearthdeception.com/biblical-proofs-of-the-globe-earth/) is dedicated to the supposed biblical support for a flat earth. He handles a number of the verses used by flat earthers. Here's one I think he did well, but he missed something:

They point to Daniel 4:10 to proclaim there is a center of their flat earth.
Daniel 4:10 “Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.”

This is just another example of them taking a verse completely out of context to try to prove their agenda. This passage is not talking about the design of the earth or the place that is the center.

The ‘tree in the midst of the earth‘ that Daniel was describing was king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, who reigned over the kingdoms of the earth.
He was humbled more than any man, and made to eat grass as the cattle of the field, which at the end of his punishment, caused him to praise his Creator.

How flat-earthers don’t bother to read the rest of the chapter, I cannot understand. Verses 20-22 tell you who the tree represents.
The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth; whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was food for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the birds of the heavens had their habitation: it is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong; for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

Matthew Poole’s Commentary on the Holy Bible: A tree: those that write of the language of the East tell us that a tree denote some excellent man. Thus the prophet Ezekiel, Ezekiel 31 throughout, describes the king of Assyria, and Pharaoh king of Egypt, in their flourish, height, and great fall, comparing them to huge cedars.

And besides that, everyone on the flat earth can’t see the sun, which is supposedly 3,000 miles high, so how would they all see a giant tree?

The thing he missed was that if this refers to a real tree, and that tree was in "the midst of the earth", then it must have been growing in the arctic ocean, since the north pole is recognized by most flat earthers as the center of the world, especially so when flight paths are based on a "great circle" concept.

He also has a page on curved horizon pictures taken from high elevations. Here are a few, where he includes added straight lines to compare the curvature against.

White line added:
uk-airplane-curve.jpg

Red line added:
pilot-photo2.jpg

Red line added:
pilot-photo.jpg
Yep! And I could see this curvature the many times I flew in Naval aircraft! That is why I am not a believer in flat earth models.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Yes, I use them for the view and the image, I can't control what text is put on them. I knew when a read that and saw it that it's not a "hot spot" because that doesn't happen on earth. I used common sense just like you but thanks for your deception concerns because I pointed out, you are using deceptive images of a red line showing curvature through plane windows. Just so you're aware, Derf.

You don't know that those lines are deceptive. You suppose that they are, but your suppositions do not engender truth.

I pointed out that a video, one that you posted, showed a curved earth, but you didn't really want to take the time to search out the truth.

If you really aren't looking for the truth, then I don't see the point of continuing here with you. But if you are, I'll spend as much time as you need.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
I think the sun moves around the earth like God tells us.
a7b415128cf26c95a34dac1f30ff477a.jpg


Psalm 19:1-7 KJV - The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

I think you are pressing the physical aspect of the psalm to try to find scientific juice that is not there.

I suggest that "their line" refers to the heavenly bodies and how they are meticulously placed to balance the universe; exact relationships that are known to ancient astronomers, of all languages and nations, to be reliable and awesome. They speak their words in a heavenly language v2 both day and night and create a stage for the sun to dominate our existence.

What is interesting here is that there is a correlation with the "law of the Lord" v7 in the word "line" from v4. Compare with Is 28:10KJV (same word).

I am also reminded of Paul's declaration that the perfection of creation itself witnesses to the heathen. Rom 1:20KJV
 

patrick jane

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You don't know that those lines are deceptive. You suppose that they are, but your suppositions do not engender truth.

I pointed out that a video, one that you posted, showed a curved earth, but you didn't really want to take the time to search out the truth.

If you really aren't looking for the truth, then I don't see the point of continuing here with you. But if you are, I'll spend as much time as you need.
You don't know that spot was deceptive. Derf, I've known I was on a BALL shaped earth for 45 years I'll be 50 soon. I don't need convincing I'm on a ball, I lived it. I went to school and a year of college so far. You can't see curvature from a plane, period. No matter how much you scream it and show red lines. The high altitude balloon video, from what I saw was a flat horizon every time the balloon was level.
 

Derf

Well-known member
You don't know that spot was deceptive. Derf, I've known I was on a BALL shaped earth for 45 years I'll be 50 soon. I don't need convincing I'm on a ball, I lived it. I went to school and a year of college so far. You can't see curvature from a plane, period. No matter how much you scream it and show red lines. The high altitude balloon video, from what I saw was a flat horizon every time the balloon was level.

That's why I added lines, and why I selected pictures showing the positive and negative curvature due to the lens, and why I selected a horizon image that had the horizon below the center of the picture. It's very hard to see the curve with the eye alone, and sometimes the eye will see a curve when there isn't one. But that doesn't mean it isn't there in the real thing. And there are definitely pictures that show curve that are warped from other things. That's why you have to characterize the lenses--all of them, including the plane windows, which can act like a lens. But if you put a picture up that shows a flat horizon, and another that shows a curved horizon, you can't choose the flat one just because you like it better--truth is more stable than your likes and dislikes. You have to have reasons for choosing one over the other--reasons why it would be curved and in what direction the curvature of the lens or window or whatever is forcing the image, if the curve is not to be trusted. Or you have to throw out all pictures, including the ones that show a flat horizon.

You can't come to the truth applying a double standard for evidence.

And how much experience have YOU had in planes that you can say you, personally, can say you can't see it in one? Are you really willing to say that [MENTION=12969]Sherman[/MENTION] is lying to you? What about the Christian astronauts that have been on the space station or in orbit, or on the moon? Are they all lying or deceived? Can you really say it's impossible for you to be deceived on this issue when you already admit you've been deceived for some 45 years? How do you know which one is the deception now?
 

Sherman

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[MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION], The curvature is more apparent when you are in the plane and it is moving than in a still picture. You are seeing land features pop up over the horizon. You are moving over a massive ball. The landscape curves away from you at high altitude.
 

Wick Stick

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Originally Posted by patrick jane

Isaiah 14:12-17 KJV - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Where are the sides of the north?
Sides just means extremities. For Isaiah, what is in view is probably Mt. Hermon, which lies at the northern extremity of Israel.

I've been to the top of Mt. Hermon in a humvee. You can see all the way to Damascus to the northeast, and most of Lebanon to the northwest, all the way to the Mediterranean. Oh, and you can see the curvature of the earth, too. :p
 

daqq

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Sides just means extremities. For Isaiah, what is in view is probably Mt. Hermon, which lies at the northern extremity of Israel.

I've been to the top of Mt. Hermon in a humvee. You can see all the way to Damascus to the northeast, and most of Lebanon to the northwest, all the way to the Mediterranean. Oh, and you can see the curvature of the earth, too. :p

Interesting. Got any pics?
 

daqq

Well-known member
I doubt he does. Not like these. On with red lines way higher up that @Derf 's

abd7f656af5af4beeccf65004738f4c8.jpg


396e97261c9049b87c9dc4d3fbe239d5.jpg

@Derf

Well, I just meant from his own experience because he said he was there, (at Mt Hermon). Kind of like Sherman has personal experience in Naval aircraft and thus, to me, such testimony from those whom we are somewhat familiar with, from right here in this forum, holds more weight with me because of the simple fact that we are dealing with online image files which anyone can doctor. Sherman says she has seen the curvature of the earth while flying Naval aircraft; Wick Stick says he has seen the curvature of the earth from Mt Hermon: those things seem more credible to me so I just thought an image file from the top of Mt Hermon would be cool. But then again, maybe not, because WS might open himself up to being accused of doctoring his own picture or not being smart enough to realize it was the camera lens, lol. :idunno: :)
 

patrick jane

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Well, I just meant from his own experience because he said he was there, (at Mt Hermon). Kind of like Sherman has personal experience in Naval aircraft and thus, to me, such testimony from those whom we are somewhat familiar with, from right here in this forum, holds more weight with me because of the simple fact that we are dealing with online image files which anyone can doctor. Sherman says she has seen the curvature of the earth while flying Naval aircraft; Wick Stick says he has seen the curvature of the earth from Mt Hermon: those things seem more credible to me so I just thought an image file from the top of Mt Hermon would be cool. But then again, maybe not, because WS might open himself up to being accused of doctoring his own picture or not being smart enough to realize it was the camera lens, lol. :idunno: :)
Actually, Sherman never said she saw the curvature, I asked straight up, so yeah I trust here testimony. She replied with a fairly long post about flying too many times, she never said YES. Nobody has ever seem the curvature from any mountain. Wick is lying or he was hallucinating. Ask him if he was serious about "seeing" the curvature. It seems we can't trust some of our very own members daqq. :idunno: :) :e4e: Maybe @ Sherman said so today because she saw the fake pictures from [MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION] ?
 

1Mind1Spirit

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Well, I just meant from his own experience because he said he was there, (at Mt Hermon). Kind of like Sherman has personal experience in Naval aircraft and thus, to me, such testimony from those whom we are somewhat familiar with, from right here in this forum, holds more weight with me because of the simple fact that we are dealing with online image files which anyone can doctor. Sherman says she has seen the curvature of the earth while flying Naval aircraft; Wick Stick says he has seen the curvature of the earth from Mt Hermon: those things seem more credible to me so I just thought an image file from the top of Mt Hermon would be cool. But then again, maybe not, because WS might open himself up to being accused of doctoring his own picture or not being smart enough to realize it was the camera lens, lol. :idunno: :)

Guess Sherman could tell us how high them naval planes was flyin'.
 
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