ECT Two Deaths on the Cross

[Jerry Shugart]

Since a person dies spiritually when he sins then the Lord Jesus had to pay the penalty for our spiritual death.

"Death" can be defined as a separation. Physical death is a separation of the soul from the physical body. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from the source of spiritual life, the LORD God.

And even before the Lord Jesus died physically He died spiritually when He was forsaken by the Father and said, "It is finished" (Jn.19:30).

It was finished before He died physically.

Comments?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Is everyone in agreement?

 

[DAN P]

Is everyone in agreement?

Hi and I am still thinking ??

Where do you say Jesus spirit GO ??

Are you thinking of ECC 12:7 ??

Are you saying Jesus is 2 PERSONS OR ONE ??

I believe all people are born SPIRITUALLY dead as 1 Cor 2:14 says !!

It is FINISHED is a verb in the PERFECT TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD of a FACT !!

It means that Jesus death on the cross , means Jesus died for sin, PAST , PRESENT and in the FUTURE

and means that Jesus could never die for sin EVER AGAIN !!

dan p

 

[tdhiggins]

Hello,

It is important that Jesus had to die physically as well. Hebrews 9:22 states that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Adam's fall resulted not only in spiritual death, but also in physical death (Romans 5:12).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I believe all people are born SPIRITUALLY dead as 1 Cor 2:14 says !!

No, the Scriptures reveal that people die spiritually as a result of their own sins. That can only mean that before a person sins he is alive spiritually.

The theory of Original Sin is just that--a theory which has no basis in fact.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Adam's fall resulted not only in spiritual death, but also in physical death (Romans 5:12).

He had to die physically because it was foretold that He would.

Romans 5:12 is not speaking of "physical death" but instead "spiritual death."

Adam did not die physically on the day when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil but instead he died spiritually.

 

[tdhiggins]

He had to die physically because of Hebrews 9:22. The payment of sin is physical death as well as spiritual death. There is no Biblical way around that; the entire ritual sacrifice system of the Old Testament is built upon the fact that God demands blood for sin.

As to Adam, physical death fell upon humanity because of his fall, as well as spiritual death. Before the Fall, Adam was not subject to death. After the Fall, all of humanity is subject to death. That is, death is a result of original sin.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He had to die physically because of Hebrews 9:22. The payment of sin is physical death as well as spiritual death. There is no Biblical way around that; the entire ritual sacrifice system of the Old Testament is built upon the fact that God demands blood for sin.

Yes, but the entire sacrifical system was in "type" and is not to be taken literally.

As to Adam, physical death fell upon humanity because of his fall, as well as spiritual death. Before the Fall, Adam was not subject to death. After the Fall, all of humanity is subject to death. That is, death is a result of original sin.

Yes, because of Adam's sin none of his descendants have access to the tree of life and it was partaking of that tree which allowed people to live forever (Gen.3:22-24).

The physical bodies of Adam and Eve were not changed when they ate of the forbidden tree. Instead, they gained knowledge. Again, Romans 5:12 is not speaking of physical death but instead spiritual death.

Men do not die physically when they sin.

 

[tdhiggins]

The entire book of Hebrews is about how Christ fulfilled the "type" of the sacrificial system. The reason the system existed was to point to the type of death that the Lord Jesus had to die to atone for sins. It had to be a substitutionary death that paid the penalty of the sins of those for whom Jesus died. Hebrews is very clear: without a physical death, the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.

And yes, men do not die every time they sin. But that is not what I said. I said that physical death entered the world through Adam's fall. The reason men die is because of our sinful nature which separates us from eternal life with God until God reconciles us to Himself.

The whole point is that both the physical and spiritual aspects of the cross are important. Without a physical death, the wrath of God could not be appeased (again, all throughout Hebrews). Denying that truth is essentially a semi-Docetism. Worse, it minimizes the sufferings of the Lord of Glory.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The entire book of Hebrews is about how Christ fulfilled the "type" of the sacrificial system.

Yes, the "type" spoke of physical death and the anti-type is spiritual death.

When the word "blood" is used it speaks of spiritual death being applied to the believer and is not to be taken literally.

Please tell me how a physical death can pay for the penalty sins which are in regard to the soul of man and not to his physical body.

The reason men die is because of our sinful nature which separates us from eternal life with God until God reconciles us to Himself.

No, people die physically because it is appointed that all people die physically (Heb.9:27).. All people will die physically whether they sin or not.

 

[tdhiggins]

Again, Hebrews 9:22. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. The holy Scriptures clearly state the fact. Answer me this: if a physical death was not necessary, then why did Jesus physically die? Not only that, but why did He die a death that represented one cursed by God (Gal. 3:13)? You cannot simply take the word "death" and make it mean whatever you like. The word means both physical and spiritual.

 

[DAN P]

No, the Scriptures reveal that people die spiritually as a result of their own sins. That can only mean that before a person sins he is alive spiritually.

The theory of Original Sin is just that--a theory which has no basis in fact.

Hi Jerry and 1 Cor 15:22 reads , For in even as by Adam all die , so also by Christ all will be made alive !!

Adam sinned and he died and every one that follows Adam is born in sin !!

The Greek word DIE / APOTHNASKO is in the PRESENT TENSE is in the Continuous action of following Adam BUT BE MADE ALIVE / ZOOPOIEO , is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD that verse 22 is correct !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Again, Hebrews 9:22. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

That is true in regard to the "types" but a type is something in the earthly sphere which illustates things in regard to the spiritual sphere.

Answer me this: if a physical death was not necessary, then why did Jesus physically die?

One reason was because the OT prophets prophesised that He would die physically.

Not only that, but why did He die a death that represented one cursed by God (Gal. 3:13)? You cannot simply take the word "death" and make it mean whatever you like. The word means both physical and spiritual.

The word "death" means physical death in some instances and spiritual death in other instances. And people die spiritually when they sin

It is man's soul which is guilty of sin and not his physical body. And likewise it is the soul which is saved (1 Pet.1:9).

How can a physical death pay the penalty for a spiritual death?

 

[tdhiggins]

Human nature cannot be separated out so easily. We are both physical and spiritual creatures (which is why we will have physical resurrected bodies). Sin affects the entire nature, not just the spiritual nature. Thus, the punishment for sin involves both physical and spiritual death. They are not separate categories. When a person dies, they die physically and after that comes judgement. Then, there will be either eternal physical and spiritual life, or physical and spiritual death. In order to take our place, Jesus' death was both physical and spiritual.

Saying that He only died physically to fulfill OT prophecy is not a reason. Why was His physical death foretold? What was the point? If we say that the physical death of Christ did not contribute to the atonement, we make it meaningless.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi Jerry and 1 Cor 15:22 reads , For in even as by Adam all die , so also by Christ all will be made alive !!

People are not automatically "in Christ" because no one is In Christ until they believe. And no one is automatically "in Adam" and are not in Adam until they sin.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Sin affects the entire nature, not just the spiritual nature.

How does sin affect anything but the soul? When a soul sins then that soul is separated from the LORD and that is spiritual death. And then when he believes his soul is saved.

In what way does sinning affect any other part of a man?

 

[Danoh]

Is everyone in agreement?

Nope.

Only in your delusion "a person dies spiritually when he sins."

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Nope.

Only in your delusion "a person dies spiritually when he sins."

What death is being referred to at James 1:15?

 

[Danoh]

What death is being referred to at James 1:15?

Let's pretend you actually bother with asking what the writer was talking about - within the all encompassing dynamic he was actually addressing - when he then said what he then said after all that...

For, clearly, you do not follow this simple Study Principle CONSISTENTLY.

Thus, your resulting hybrid, or mix of things that do not normally go together.

Breaking as you have from the writer's overall flow of thought, drawn away as you have clearly allowed yourself to be, by your own lust, into this product of your own fleshy mind - this resulting dead fruit of an interpretation of yours.

For what James is referring to is to a momentary, spiritual inability's resulting fruit - fruit unacceptable to God.

In their case - verse 1's "Twelve Tribes which are scattered abroad" - said dead fruit would be the spiritual inability to let patience have or result in, her perfect fruit - THEIR ability in them to endure unto the end of THEIR persecutions.

But go ahead, twist that into one more evidence of your own destruction, 1 Cor. 3:17 as to the folly of your Inconsistent Study Approach, before actual MADs.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

For what James is referring to is to a momentary, spiritual inability's resulting fruit - fruit unacceptable to God.

Here is the death which results when a person sins:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).​

When a sinner is made alive together with the Lord Jesus he is made alive "spiritually." That can only mean that previously he was dead "spiritually."

David B. Calhoun writes the following commentary about James 1:14-15:

"Temptation leads to sin, and, for the unrepentant, sin leads to spiritual death. 'Each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it is conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death' (James 1:14-15). James describes the deadly progression from evil desire, to being dragged away, to enticement, to conception, to birth and then finally to death. This sixfold progression proceeds from the mind, to the affections, to the will, to outward action, and to spiritual death" (David B. Calhoun, "Sin and Temptation" in Fallen: A Theology of Sin, 264).​