ECT The Gifts and Calling of God in the Gospel

[Interplanner]

This expression in Rom 11, say the D'ists, is certainly the trump. Surely God means to restore a theocratic kingdom to Israel and Christ enthroned in Jerusalem for that.

But what paragraph is it in and what is said with finality in that paragraph? Rom 9-11 is about the question of why so few Jewish people are in the mission of God. Why are so many consumed with 'zeal without knowledge'--many of which have become zealot rebels seeking an independent state from Rome? They are supposed to fulfill 'how beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace' but they are so far from it.

The gift of the Gospel and the calling of its mission do not change. In the Gospel, God has bound all mankind over to sin, in hopes of having mercy on them all. That's the Israel that's saved.

 

[Danoh]

Nice word twist - the word is "gifts" plural, not "gift" singular.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

There is Romans 11:29's "gifts and calling of God are without repentance."


And here...

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

"...the calling" being a reference to 9:4's "the service of God."

 

[Cross Reference]

This expression in Rom 11, say the D'ists, is certainly the trump. Surely God means to restore a theocratic kingdom to Israel and Christ enthroned in Jerusalem for that.

But what paragraph is it in and what is said with finality in that paragraph? Rom 9-11 is about the question of why so few Jewish people are in the mission of God. Why are so many consumed with 'zeal without knowledge'--many of which have become zealot rebels seeking an independent state from Rome? They are supposed to fulfill 'how beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace' but they are so far from it.

The gift of the Gospel and the calling of its mission do not change. In the Gospel, God has bound all mankind over to sin, in hopes of having mercy on them all. That's the Israel that's saved.

Sorry but God never did that in the sense you understand it. Adam's transgression sealed man to the penalty of sin that Jesus canceled out. Sin remains and it is for man to overcome by means of the enablement we know as being Redemption; a new way of living; foundation for predicated upon one's entering into a relationship with God. That can be what is interpreted by you as being a "gift"; a Divine "Gift" by relationship. . . His Life in me for my life in return.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

This expression in Rom 11, say the D'ists,

It is not good for you to be obsessed with what one group teaches.

 

[Interplanner]

Sorry but God never did that in the sense you understand it. Adam's transgression sealed man to the penalty of sin that Jesus canceled out. Sin remains and it is for man to overcome by means of the enablement we know as being Redemption; a new way of living; foundation for predicated upon one's entering into a relationship with God. That can be what is interpreted by you as being a "gift"; a Divine "Gift" by relationship. . . His Life in me for my life in return.

I'm not sure what "that" you don't see, but the kind of binding at the end of Rom 11 is that people have disbelieved. Everyone has. What seemed like obvious Gentile sin to Israel was mirrored in Israel by their rejection of Christ (or his mission, which is what 9-11 is about).

I'm simply showing that the gift and calling is not a theocratic restored state for Israel. It is the gift of the Gospel's mercy and the gift of being in God's mission to the nations.

 

[Danoh]

It is not good for you to be obsessed with what one group teaches.

Oh?

:chuckle:

 

[Cross Reference]

I'm not sure what "that" you don't see, but the kind of binding at the end of Rom 11 is that people have disbelieved. Everyone has. What seemed like obvious Gentile sin to Israel was mirrored in Israel by their rejection of Christ (or his mission, which is what 9-11 is about).

I'm simply showing that the gift and calling is not a theocratic restored state for Israel. It is the gift of the Gospel's mercy and the gift of being in God's mission to the nations.

Get off your Israel kick. Adam wasn't Israel nor the penalty he brought on mankind for Israel but ALL mankind. Israel simply was for introducing God into the equation.

 

[Interplanner]

Get off your Israel kick. Adam wasn't Israel nor the penalty he brought on mankind for Israel but ALL mankind. Israel simply was for introducing God into the equation.

Why did you mention Adam? You might be referring to Rom 5B but that's not what Rom 11 binding is about. The nations have been in other sin and those are after the deluge (the post-deluge nature of Rom 1 has been discussed; those before the deluge were already 'dealt' with). Israel is shown in the binding of Rom 11 to be as bad off as the nations.

So there is no kick about Israel, unless it is to clarify that there is no future theocracy coming because that is not what the end of Rom 11 is saying. The mercy of God (to Israel, too) is already here (12:1 explains 11:32). It is the Gospel of Christ and Paul wants them to be missionaries in its work.

 

[Cross Reference]

<yawn>

 

[Interplanner]

<yawn>

Man up and make distinctions between Adam's sin in Rom 5 and mankind in general in Rom 1 and Gentile/Jew in Rom 11. If you can't spin at least that many plates, you're in the wrong line of work.

 

[Clete]

This expression in Rom 11, say the D'ists, is certainly the trump. Surely God means to restore a theocratic kingdom to Israel and Christ enthroned in Jerusalem for that.

But what paragraph is it in and what is said with finality in that paragraph? Rom 9-11 is about the question of why so few Jewish people are in the mission of God. Why are so many consumed with 'zeal without knowledge'--many of which have become zealot rebels seeking an independent state from Rome? They are supposed to fulfill 'how beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace' but they are so far from it.

The gift of the Gospel and the calling of its mission do not change. In the Gospel, God has bound all mankind over to sin, in hopes of having mercy on them all. That's the Israel that's saved.

If there is a trump is the 28 verses in Romans 11 that precede the one you cite.

Israel was cut off and will be grafted in again once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

It's really very clear.

 

[Interplanner]

If there is a trump is the 28 verses in Romans 11 that precede the one you cite.

Israel was cut off and will be grafted in again once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

It's really very clear.

No, what is clear is that THAT is not what is predicted, because there is no prediction. The chapter is a prodding or urging to Israel to be in the mission, because only those who believe will be in the 'Israel' that is saved, which is all those who are justified from their sins. The Isaiah passage is used historically; it has happened. The 'all Israel saved' means all who believe will be saved and it will include a number of Gentiles that becomse full.

The past tenses of v30 are the final clue. Past tense!

The tree analogy is not about nations or ethnes! It is about individuals who believe or not. Those who believe will stand.

Finally, as always, a thinking person has to figure out how 'all' of a regular ethne is saved at one snapshot moment in the future--when 90% of the ethne is dead and buried!!! It is not what Paul meant because he is emphatic that we stand only by faith, whether Jew or Gentile. Faith alone! He is not speaking of whole ethnes at a time. Only the (play on words) ethne of Mt 21 about the "nation" (of faith) who tends the vineyard efficiently! Get to work in the mission!