Real Science Friday: Whale of a Tale, Telethon, & Saturn's Rings

One Eyed Jack

New member
I want to make sure I understand your position on this. You are holding to the claim that since DNA is not typically available in fossil specimens, then all that is left to determine how to order them is morphology.

You sure can't analyze their DNA. What else have you got?

You have previously made the claim that you once were an evolutionist, but the evidence converted you to the creationist view. If it turns out that evolutionists decide on the arrangement of fossils by more than morphology, then that would indicate you probably could not have defended evolution long ago because of your own poor understanding of it.

I never claimed to have been a defender of evolution. Only that I believed in it.

Doesn’t sound like what you are claiming.

Why should it? I'm not operating under the same assumptions they are.
 
Last edited:

DavisBJ

New member
You sure can't analyze their DNA. What else have you got?
Since Ayala and Valentine specifically say that other methods are used in phylogenetic reconstruction, you should get their book and see what other methods they enumerate.
I never claimed to have been a defender of evolution. Only that I believed in it.
Are you admitting that your belief in evolution was never based on having a firm basic understanding of its principles?
Why should it? I'm not operating under the same assumptions they are.
This is not just a matter of “assumptions”. It is whether or not your assertion that fossils are arranged based only on morphological similarity is accurate. You admit that you are a novice making this claim, and I provided a written statement by professionals in the field that says you are wrong.
 

One Eyed Jack

New member
Since Ayala and Valentine specifically say that other methods are used in phylogenetic reconstruction, you should get their book and see what other methods they enumerate.

Why don't you just lay some of 'em out for me? You can rearrange again for brevity, if you prefer.

Are you admitting that your belief in evolution was never based on having a firm basic understanding of its principles?

I'm sure that would make you happy, but no. I understood the theory of evolution just fine. My only problem was buying into it without thinking more critically.

This is not just a matter of “assumptions”.

Sure it is. Relative ages as well as the alleged relationships between organisms are based on the assumption that evolution is true to begin with.

It is whether or not your assertion that fossils are arranged based only on morphological similarity is accurate.

I didn't say they were only based on morphological similarity. I said you didn't have much else to go by when it comes to petrified bones. Sure, you can assign something a relative age and a relationship to something else, but I guarantee you morphological similarity plays a huge part in that assignment. It's all based on where it's supposed to fit in the "chain," so to speak.
 

DavisBJ

New member
Why don't you just lay 'em out for me?
Nope, I’m not going to spoon-feed you. If you feel it is not worth your time and expense to look deep enough to see if Ayala and Valentine do in fact delineate other ways of determining fossil arrangement than morphology, then so be it. It will stand as an admission that your statements about how fossils are arranged are sustained though intentional ignorance on your part.
Of course not. I understood evolution just fine.
Your lack of knowledge about how fossils are arranged is first-hand evidence that you do not understand evolution at more than a typically superficial creationist level.
I didn't say they were only based on morphological similarity. I said you didn't have much else to go by when it comes to petrified bones.
That is what you said, but is it true? Requoting from Ayala and Valentine:
For most lineages we have to employ more indirect methods of phylogenetic reconstruction.
That is in direct contradiction to your claim.
[Sure, you can assign something a relative age and a relationship to something else, but I guarantee you morphological similarity plays a huge part in that assignment. It's all based on where it's supposed to fit in the "chain," so to speak.
Sure it plays a huge role. The expectation is that if enough fossils can be found in a lineage, that they will show a gradual changing morphology. That is exactly what is expected. If the age of the fossil is right, but the morphology is crucially wrong for it to fit in a sequence, then it will end up in another line of descent.
 
Top