Real Science Friday: Baraminologist Dr. Roger Sanders on RSF

[Nick M]

:mock: Barbie

Little more needs to be said.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
One says "the firmament is heaven." The other says "the firmament of the heavens." Same thing, slightly different phrasing.

No, it's not the same thing.

Same thing. If you have to invent an entirely new, unscriptural doctrine to support your belief, isn't that a pretty good hint that you've gotten it wrong?

Barbarian suggests:
Show me in the Hebrew that they are different.

You can read Hebrew now?

I showed you, for example, that "raqia" (the Hebrew word translated as "firmament") means something like metal beaten out into a covering. Most peoples of the Middle East at the time say the sky as a dome covering the Earth.

from 'raqa`' (7554); properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:--firmament. - Strong's Hebrew Dictionary

beaten (1), hammered (2), plates (1), spread (3), spreading (1), stamp (1), stamped (2).
http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/7554.htm

I didn't think you had a firm grasp on English yet.

I don't think generic personal attacks are going to help you, Stipe. Showing us that your new interpretation of the Bible can be supported by the text would be a start for you.

fir·ma·ment  [fur-muh-muhnt]
–noun
the vault of heaven; sky.

1250–1300; Middle English < Late Latin firmāmentum sky, Latin: support, prop, stay, equivalent to firmā ( re ) to strengthen, support ( see firm2 ) + -mentum -ment

Related Words for : firmament
celestial sphere, empyrean, heavens, sphere, vault of heaven
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/firmament

The notion that the sky was a vast solid dome seems to have been common among the ancient peoples whose ideas of cosmology have come down to us. Thus the Egyptians conceived the heavens to be an arched iron ceiling from which the stars were suspended by means of cables (Chabas, LÆAntiquiteÆ historique, Paris, 1873, pp. 64-67). Likewise to the mind of the Babylonians the sky was an immense dome, forged out of the hardest metal by the hand of Merodach (Marduk) and resting on a wall surrounding the earth (Jensen, Die Kosmologie der Babylonier, Strasburg, 1890, pp. 253, 260). According to the notion prevalent among the Greeks and Romans, the sky was a great vault of crystal to which the fixed stars were attached, though by some it was held to be of iron or brass. That the Hebrews entertained similar ideas appears from numerous biblical passages. In the first account of the creation (Genesis 1) we read that God created a firmament to divide the upper or celestial from the lower or terrestrial waters. The Hebrew means something beaten or hammered out, and thus extended; the Vulgate rendering, ôfirmamentumö corresponds more closely with the Greek stereoma (Septuagint, Aquila, and Symmachus), ôsomething made firm or solidö. The notion of the solidity of the firmament is moreover expressed in such passages as Job 37:18, where reference is made incidentally to the heavens, ôwhich are most strong, as if they were of molten brassö. The same is implied in the purpose attributed to God in creating the firmament, viz. to serve as a wall of separation between the upper and lower of water, it being conceived as supporting a vast celestial reservoir; and also in the account of the deluge (Genesis 7), where we read that the ôflood gates of heaven were openedö, and shut upö (viii, 2). (Cf. also IV 28 sqq.) Other passages e.g. Isaiah 42:5, emphasize rather the idea of something extended: ôThus saith the Lord God that created the heavens and stretched them outö (Cf. Isaiah 44:24, and 40:22). In conformity with these ideas, the writer of Genesis 1:14-20 represents God as setting the stars in the firmament of heaven, and the fowls are located beneath it, i.e. in the air as distinct from the firmament. On this point as on many others, the Bible simply reflects the current cosmological ideas and language of the time.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06079b.htm

Stipe, perhaps you could show us just one source that agrees with you about the "firmament" mentioned in Genesis meaning "crust of the Earth?"

 

[Stripe]

Barbarian observes:ne says "the firmament is heaven." The other says "the firmament of the heavens." Same thing, slightly different phrasing.Same thing. If you have to invent an entirely new, unscriptural doctrine to support your belief, isn't that a pretty good hint that you've gotten it wrong?arbarian suggests:how me in the Hebrew that they are different.showed you, for example, that "raqia" (the Hebrew word translated as "firmament") means something like metal beaten out into a covering. Most peoples of the Middle East at the time say the sky as a dome covering the Earth.I]from 'raqa`' (7554); properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:--firmament.[/I] - Strong's Hebrew Dictionary beaten (1), hammered (2), plates (1), spread (3), spreading (1), stamp (1), stamped (2).strongsnu mbers.com/hebrew/7554.htm[/url]don't think generic personal attacks are going to help you, Stipe. Showing us that your new interpretation of the Bible can be supported by the text would be a start for you.fir·ma·ment  [fur-muh-muhnt] noun
the vault of heaven; sky. 250–1300; Middle English < Late Latin firmāmentum sky, Latin: support, prop, stay, equivalent to firmā ( re ) to strengthen, support ( see firm2 ) + -mentum -mentRelated Words for : firmamentcelestial sphere, empyrean, heavens, sphere, vault of heaven[/I[ur://dictionary.reference.com/browse/firmament[/url]]The notion that the sky was a vast solid dome seems to have been common among the ancient peoples whose ideas of cosmology have come down to us. Thus the Egyptians conceived the heavens to be an arched iron ceiling from which the stars were suspended by means of cables (Chabas, LÆAntiquiteÆ historique, Paris, 1873, pp. 64-67). Likewise to the mind of the Babylonians the sky was an immense dome, forged out of the hardest metal by the hand of Merodach (Marduk) and resting on a wall surrounding the earth (Jensen, Die Kosmologie der Babylonier, Strasburg, 1890, pp. 253, 260). According to the notion prevalent among the Greeks and Romans, the sky was a great vault of crystal to which the fixed stars were attached, though by some it was held to be of iron or brass. That the Hebrews entertained similar ideas appears from numerous biblical passages. In the first account of the creation (Genesis 1) we read that God created a firmament to divide the upper or celestial from the lower or terrestrial waters. The Hebrew means something beaten or hammered out, and thus extended; the Vulgate rendering, ôfirmamentumö corresponds more closely with the Greek stereoma (Septuagint, Aquila, and Symmachus), ôsomething made firm or solidö. The notion of the solidity of the firmament is moreover expressed in sucwhere reference is made incidentally to the heavens, ôwhich are most strong, as if they were of molten brassö. The same is implied in the purpose attributed to God in creating the firmament, viz. to serve as a wall of separation between the upper and lower of water, it being conceived as supporting a vast celestial reservoir; and also in where we read that the ôflood gates of heaven were openedö, and shut upö (viii, 2). (Cf. also IV 28 sqq.) Other passages , emphasize rather the idea of something extended: ôThus saith the Lord God that created the heavens and stretched them outö (Cf. Isaiah 44:24, and 40:22). In conformity with these ideas, the wrrepresents God as setting the stars in the firmament of heaven, and the fowls are located beneath it, i.e. in the air as distinct from the firmament. On this point as on many others, the Bible simply reflects the current cosmological ideas and language of the time.[rl]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06079b.htm[/u

:blabla:

Stipe, perhaps you could show us just one source that agrees with you about the "firmament" mentioned in Genesis meaning "crust of the Earth?"

Already done. Perhaps you could show some humility and actually have a discussion instead of just assuming the truth of your position. :thumb:

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian asks:
Stipe, perhaps you could show us just one source that agrees with you about the "firmament" mentioned in Genesis meaning "crust of the Earth?"

Already done.

Aside from you, I mean. If you can't find it, just say so. Otherwise, show a link.

Perhaps you could show some humility and actually have a discussion instead of just assuming the truth of your position.

I just showed you a number of citations from a variety of Christian sources. None support your idea. All of them acknowledge the "firmament" is the sky.

So it's show time, Stipe. Show us what you have. If you just made it up, and don't have any sources, make another excuse like "I already showed you." We'll understand.

 

[Stripe]

Stipe, perhaps you could show us just one source that agrees with you about the "firmament" mentioned in Genesis meaning "crust of the Earth?"

Already done. :thumb:

Aside from you, I mean. If you can't find it, just say so. Otherwise, show a link.

I think you should just go on believing that which you already believe. :thumb:

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian suggests:
Stipe, perhaps you could show us just one source that agrees with you about the "firmament" mentioned in Genesis meaning "crust of the Earth?"

Already done.

But you can't find the source now, um? Unfortunate...

Barbarian observes:
Aside from you, I mean. If you can't find it, just say so. Otherwise, show a link.

I think you should just go on believing that which you already believe.

I think your failure to present a single person is sufficient admission.