Paul's distinctions

[Right Divider]

If Paul's ministry and message was identical to the twelve, why was Paul always making a distinction between the two?

Here is one example: the TWO foundations.

Rom 15:15-20 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:15) Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, (15:16) That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. (15:17) I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. (15:18) For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, (15:19) Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. (15:20) Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

1Cor 3:10-11 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. (3:11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

There was already a "foundation in Christ" laid before Paul, but Paul laid the "foundation in Christ". Paul's ministry was different and contained new information from God. Hence a NEW foundation.

 

[Hoping]

If Paul's ministry and message was identical to the twelve, why was Paul always making a distinction between the two?

Here is one example: the TWO foundations.

Rom 15:15-20 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:15) Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, (15:16) That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. (15:17) I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. (15:18) For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, (15:19) Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. (15:20) Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

1Cor 3:10-11 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. (3:11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

There was already a "foundation in Christ" laid before Paul, but Paul laid the "foundation in Christ". Paul's ministry was different and contained new information from God. Hence a NEW foundation.

There was already a "foundation in Christ" laid before Paul's conversion, but Paul laid the same foundation to those who had not heard of it.
Jesus died for our sin, and was raised from the dead. (1 Cor 15:3-4..." For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" )

 

[Right Divider]

There was already a "foundation in Christ" laid before Paul's conversion, but Paul laid the same foundation to those who had not heard of it.

You've posted some amazingly dumb stuff, but this might be your dumbest.

 

[Hoping]

You've posted some amazingly dumb stuff, but this might be your dumbest.

Were you correct, then Paul wasn't preaching Christ.

 

[Right Divider]

Were you correct, then Paul wasn't preaching Christ.

It's amazing how consistently wrong you can be.

Paul preached Christ differently. He says it time and time again in his epistles. Like this:

Rom 16:25 (AKJV/PCE)
(16:25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

The mystery was revealed to Paul and you are still completely ignorant of it.

 

[Hoping]

It's amazing how consistently wrong you can be.

Paul preached Christ differently. He says it time and time again in his epistles. Like this:

Rom 16:25 (AKJV/PCE)
(16:25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

The mystery was revealed to Paul and you are still completely ignorant of it.

You mean the mystery of Christ in us Gentiles, the hope of glory? (Col 1:27)

 

[Right Divider]

You mean the mystery of Christ in us Gentiles, the hope of glory? (Com 1:27)

That's part of it.

It also includes this:

Rom 11:25 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[Hoping]

That's part of it.

It also includes this:

Rom 11:25 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Yes.
Though I see this as another mystery.
Jesus touched on the blindness of the unbelieving Israel a bunch of times.
John 12:40 is especially clear..."He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
Matt 23:16-26 are good scriptures pointing out the "blindness" of the Israelites too.

 

[Right Divider]

Yes.
Though I see this as another mystery.

It's all part of the same mystery.
Fundamentally, the mystery is salvation apart from Israel, their covenants, etc. Salvation through the fall of Israel instead of their rise.

Jesus touched on the blindness of the unbelieving Israel a bunch of times.
John 12:40 is especially clear..."He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
Matt 23:16-26 are good scriptures pointing out the "blindness" of the Israelites too.

That is all true but has nothing to do with the revelation of the mystery.

 

[Hoping]

It's all part of the same mystery.
Fundamentally, the mystery is salvation apart from Israel, their covenants, etc. Salvation through the fall of Israel instead of their rise.

Don't you find it incongruous that an Israelite brought us that message?
Without Judaism, we Gentiles would still be slaves/servants of sin, and out in the cold.

That is all true but has nothing to do with the revelation of the mystery.

Jesus was revealing the blindness of the unbelievers while He walked the earth.

 

[Right Divider]

Don't you find it incongruous that an Israelite brought us that message?

That is a very strange and incorrect idea, as Paul was also a Roman.

Without Judaism, we Gentiles would still be slaves/servants of sin, and out in the cold.

Again, you are quite wrong.

Jesus was revealing the blindness of the unbelievers while He walked the earth.

Jesus was sent to Israel and that was who He declared blind.

2Cor 5:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)
(5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. (5:17) Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he][ is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[Hoping]

That is a very strange and incorrect idea, as Paul was also a Roman.

"Also" a Roman.
Dual citizenship.

Again, you are quite wrong.

As Judaism produced a Savior, neither the Jew nor Gentile could be saved without Judaism.

Jesus was sent to Israel and that was who He declared blind.

That is kind of correct.
He was calling the Jews at hand "blind", but Jesus came to take away the sins of the entire world.

2Cor 5:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)
(5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. (5:17) Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he][ is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Verse 17 is one of my favorite scriptures.
As the new creatures, reborn of God's seed, walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh, it has enabled us to forgo committing sin.
Thanks be to God !

 

[Right Divider]

"Also" a Roman.
Dual citizenship.

Duh.

As Judaism produced a Savior, neither the Jew nor Gentile could be saved without Judaism.

It was not "Judaism" that saves anyone. That Jesus was a Jew is irrelevant to eternal life and particularly the gospel of the grace of God.

That is kind of correct.

No, it's 100% correct.

He was calling the Jews at hand "blind", but Jesus came to take away the sins of the entire world.

Jesus came with both an overt and a covert mission. The covert mission was not revealed until Jesus began to appear to Paul.

Verse 17 is one of my favorite scriptures.
As the new creatures, reborn of God's seed, walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh, it has enabled us to forgo committing sin.
Thanks be to God !

The "new creature" has nothing to do with the nation of Israel. This is why Paul tells us that we are no longer to know Christ AFTER THE FLESH (as an Israelite).

 

[Hoping]

Duh.

You brought it up...

It was not "Judaism" that saves anyone.

You are right.

That Jesus was a Jew is irrelevant to eternal life and particularly the gospel of the grace of God.

I suppose Noah's ark and the history of Sodom and Gomorrah are irrelevant too, but they lay the groundwork and illustrate the mind of whom we serve.
Jesus was Judaism personified.
Which do you worship...Jesus, or the gospel of grace?

No, it's 100% correct.

Did Jesus not take away your sins?
Were you Jewish?

Jesus came with both an overt and a covert mission. The covert mission was not revealed until Jesus began to appear to Paul.

He came to free the world of sin, starting with the Israelites.

The "new creature" has nothing to do with the nation of Israel.

Sorry you believe that, in spite of John 3:3,5-6.
Unless you are referring only to the unbelieving of the nation of Israel

This is why Paul tells us that we are no longer to know Christ AFTER THE FLESH (as an Israelite).

He tells us that because WE are "no longer in the flesh".
Now we can know Him in the Spirit.

Thanks be to God.

 

[Right Divider]

You brought it up...

Yes, I did. So what?

I suppose Noah's ark and the history of Sodom and Gomorrah are irrelevant too, but they lay the groundwork and illustrate the mind of whom we serve.

They are not irrelevant to valuable information and neither is Israel in that regard.

Jesus was Judaism personified.

Jesus was God in the flesh.

Which do you worship...Jesus, or the gospel of grace?

False dichotomy... so typical.

Did Jesus not take away your sins?

Yes, Jesus died so that I can live.

Were you Jewish?

No.

He came to free the world of sin, starting with the Israelites.

No exactly. Jesus still has a lot of "Jewish things" to do when He returns.

Sorry you believe that, in spite of John 3:3,5-6.

That passage has nothing to do with the body of Christ. As I said (and as is demonstrated from scripture), the "new creature" is... NEW it is not related to Israel or their covenants, etc.

Unless you are referring only to the unbelieving of the nation of Israel

No clue where you're going with this.

He tells us that because WE are "no longer in the flesh".

No, he tells us this because we are not to follow the minister of the circumcision. We are to follow the RISEN and ASCENDED Lord Jesus Christ.

Now we can know Him in the Spirit.

So that was not possible before Paul?

Thanks be to God.

Thanks be to God that there is still a chance for you to learn the truth.

 

[Hoping]

Yes, I did. So what?

Don't you think it odd that an Israelite brought us a message of separation from Israelites?

They are not irrelevant to valuable information and neither is Israel in that regard.

Glad we agree.

Jesus was God in the flesh.

Jesus wears many "hats".

False dichotomy... so typical.

What is the third choice?
And why no answer?
I will ask again..."Which do you worship...Jesus, or the gospel of grace?

Yes, Jesus died so that I can live.
No.

Then Jesus' "mission" ended up including you...a Gentile.

No exactly. Jesus still has a lot of "Jewish things" to do when He returns.

He may indeed, but His mission continues today bringing freedom to every nation on earth.

That passage has nothing to do with the body of Christ. As I said (and as is demonstrated from scripture), the "new creature" is... NEW it is not related to Israel or their covenants, etc.

Sorry you have alienated yourself from the promises of God to all believers.
Believers are, as scripture states, "of His flesh and of His bones". (Eph 5:30)
You seem to errantly differentiate between new birth and new creature.

No clue where you're going with this.

You keep blending believing and unbelieving Israel.
Can't you tell the difference?
When you say "Israel", you have to add which part of Israel you refer to.
Those repentant Israelis who have been baptized into Christ, are in "the body of Christ".
It is the unbelieving Israelis, and Gentiles, who are not in the body of Christ.

No, he tells us this because we are not to follow the minister of the circumcision. We are to follow the RISEN and ASCENDED Lord Jesus Christ.

Don't they go hand in hand?
We who are no longer in the flesh won't follow those still in the flesh.

So that was not possible before Paul?

Yes, since our "flesh" could be killed and replaced with a new creature. (Acts 2:38)

Thanks be to God that there is still a chance for you to learn the truth.

I know the truth, and it has set me free from sin(ning).
Just as Jesus said it would in John 8:32-34.
Praise be to God.
Still, I pray nearly everyday to keep growing in grace and knowledge.

 

[Right Divider]

Don't you think it odd that an Israelite brought us a message of separation from Israelites?

No, I don't. He was an Israelite that rejected Christ and was then called to be the apostle of the gentiles.

Jesus wears many "hats".

Yes, He does. To Israel He is the messiah and king. To the body of Christ He is the head.

What is the third choice?
And why no answer?
I will ask again..."Which do you worship...Jesus, or the gospel of grace?

I worship God and not His doctrines. So I consider the question to be stupid.

Then Jesus' "mission" ended up including you...a Gentile.

As I said, overt and covert.

He may indeed, but His mission continues today bringing freedom to every nation on earth.

May? Read the Bible. Jesus will be the king of Israel.

Sorry you have alienated yourself from the promises of God to all believers.

False statements abound with you.

Believers are, as scripture states, "of His flesh and of His bones". (Eph 5:30)

Yes, the BODY of Christ that started with Paul.

You seem to errantly differentiate between new birth and new creature.

No, I respect the obvious difference. You mash and smash everything into a mess.

You keep blending believing and unbelieving Israel.
Can't you tell the difference?

You are incredibly dishonest. So I'm putting you back on my ignore list.

 

[Hoping]

No, I don't. He was an Israelite that rejected Christ and was then called to be the apostle of the gentiles.

I made the same mistake you make by not saying..."Don't you think it odd that a believing Israelite brought us a message of separation from other believing Israelites?
Were your POV true, Paul cast himself aside.

Yes, He does. To Israel He is the messiah and king. To the body of Christ He is the head.

The King is the head indeed, but the body is all believers regardless of nationality or race.

I worship God and not His doctrines. So I consider the question to be stupid.

But Jesus is not your king?

As I said, overt and covert.

Hardly covert, as the message of Gentile fellowship had been in scripture since Isaiah 11:10..."And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
Jeremiah says..."O Lord, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
20 Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?
21 Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is The Lord."
Matthew cites Isaiah in Matt 12:18,21..."Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."

May? Read the Bible. Jesus will be the king of Israel.

He is already King of the believing Israelites and Gentiles.

False statements abound with you.

Your POV on John 3:3 seems to be that Jesus said..."Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a (Israelite) man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
It makes no mention of any separation between believers of any sort.

Yes, the BODY of Christ that started with Paul.

The body of Christ started with Christ.

No, I respect the obvious difference. You mash and smash everything into a mess.

I see all of scripture as one message.
Freedom to walk only in love.

You are incredibly dishonest. So I'm putting you back on my ignore list.

We just have differing POVs.