:first:*Acts9_12Out* said:Did God foreknow / predestine a police office to be gunned down in broad daylight?
Hilston said:Of course, all for God's good purposes. To which the Open Theist will ask, "Why doth he yet find fault?" (Ro 9:19a)
Jim, are you implying that God will not find fault with a person who committed murder? What "good purpose" comes from a police officer being gunned down in broad daylight?
Secondly, the context of Romans 9 has nothing to do with salvation or exhaustive divine foreknowledge. Romans 9 has everything to do with God's choosing for service for His nation of Israel.
Originally Posted by *Acts9_12Out*
Did God foreknow / predestine a 16-year-old girl to be executed by a sexual predator in her high school?
Hilston said:Yes, all for God's good purposes. To which the Open Theist will ask, "Who hath resisted His will?" (Ro 9:19b)
Jim, are you implying that Duane Morrison was doing God's will when he entered Platte Canyon High School? What "good purposes" can come from a sexual predator killing a high school girl? I was in that room Jim... If you can come up with any "good purposes" from that day, let me know... Then I'll be happy to share the gory details with you. There was nothing good in that room.
Secondly, no one has resisted God's will Jim. Why is it that man can reject His will though? Again, this passage has to do with God's choosing for service. Even if man rejects His will, God's will cannot be resisted. God chose Jacob for service while "two nations" (Gen 25:12) were in the womb. The point here is, was God unrighteous to choose Jacob as the one to receive favored status as a nation? The Jew would naturally answer, “No!” But, putting ethnic advantage aside, why? Because God has the right to show mercy to whomever He pleases. If He wants to choose one for service but not the other, He can do that. He chose Jacob but not Esau. The Jews liked that decision. Esau could have “willed” or “run” (Romans 9:16) as much as he pleased. He could have been saved or have been the most godly man who ever lived. Jacob could have been very evil, but God’s choice would still stand. Paul’s point here is God can choose whom He wills. God chose Israel as a favored nation above all others, not because of her worthiness or goodness above others, but simply because He has the right to select one and not the other. God has the complete freedom to do as He desires.
Originally Posted by *Acts9_12Out*
Did God foreknow / predestine a group of innocent Amish girls to be executed by a sexual predator in their schoolhouse?
Hilston said:Definitely, all for God's good purposes. To which the Open Theist will ask, "... if the truth of God hath abounded more through [evil] unto his glory; why yet [is the murderer] judged as a sinner?" (Ro 3:7)
Jim, are you implying that the schoolhouse shooter will not be judged by God as a sinner? I mean, he was doing God's will, right? :chuckle:
Hilston said:If it's all according to God's decrees, why does God find fault?
God finds fault because evil men freely choose to do evil things.
Hilston said:Who has resisted His decrees?
Define "His decrees" Jim. Did God decree that He wanted Moses to let Him alone so that His wrath might burn hot against Israel and He might consume them? Was that one of God's decrees Jim? If you mean, "Who has resisted His counsel?" (boulhv) then the answer is, no one. However, many have rejected His counsel. Why is that? :think:
Hilston said:Why are evil people judged as sinners?
Because God is righteous.
Hilston said:Answer: "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it [into something evil], "Why hast thou made me thus?" (Ro 9:20).
Does God arbitrarily make one lump of clay a vessel of honor and another for dishonor?
Paul was alluding to Isa 64:8, “But now, O LORD, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our potter; And all we are the work of Your hand.” He also directly quoted from Isa 29:16, “Surely you have things turned around! Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay; For shall the thing made say of him who made it, ‘He did not make me’? Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it, ‘He has no understanding’?”
In addition to these passages, I believe he was looking more to the context of Jer 18:1-11.
Jeremiah 18
1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words. 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter? says the LORD. Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!
Jim, the clay was marred in God's hand. God "made it again" into another vessel, "as it seemed good to Him to make." Jim, did God ever make a marred vessel that He left marred? :think:
Jeremiah 18
7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. 11 Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says the LORD: Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
When the potter (God) tried to make the clay (Israel) into a vessel of honor, it marred in his hand. Would that be the potter’s (God’s) fault or the clay’s (Israel’s)? Was the clay (Israel) resisting? When it was made into another vessel, one which didn’t have the honor that the first vessel would have had, was that the potter’s (God’s) fault? Absolutely not!
Hilston said:Of course not. Pots don't talk back. Pots don't mar themselves.
Jim, the Jews "judged themselves unworthy of everlasting life" (Acts 13:46). Likewise, pots do mar themselves. Are you saying God is the agent who makes marred vessels, and then punishes them for being marred? If pots do not mar themselves, how can they "clense themselves" from vessels of dishonor? Jim, repentance is the vital issue from God’s view. This is illustrated in 2 Timothy 2:20,21,
2 Timothy 2
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.”
Jim, evil people do evil things. God does not predestine evil events for His good pleasure. If an evil person repents, God will spare the destruction He prepared for them.
God bless,
--Jeremy
Classic Smack by Jeremy!
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