John 10:30 I and my father are one. (KJV)

[Lilstu]

Just came across this interesting quote from John Calvin.

John Calvin, the Swiss Protestant reformer, made the following observation regarding John 10:30: "The ancients greatly perverted this passage, when they would prove from it, that Christ is of identically the same nature (or consubstantial) with the Father. For Christ speaks not concerning an unity of substance; but of the mutual agreement between the Father and himself; to wit, affirming, that, whatsoever he does, would be sanctioned by the power of the Father."

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/jo...ted_scriptures

What do you think?

 

[jamie]

For Christ speaks not concerning an unity of substance...

Substance? Paul explained there is a material body and there is a non-material body.

In 1 Corinthians 15:49 Paul said, "And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man."

 

[patrick jane]

Just came across this interesting quote from John Calvin.

John Calvin, the Swiss Protestant reformer, made the following observation regarding John 10:30: "The ancients greatly perverted this passage, when they would prove from it, that Christ is of identically the same nature (or consubstantial) with the Father. For Christ speaks not concerning an unity of substance; but of the mutual agreement between the Father and himself; to wit, affirming, that, whatsoever he does, would be sanctioned by the power of the Father."

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/jo...ted_scriptures

What do you think?

I think John Calvin is a false teacher and a murderer

 

[Lilstu]

I think John Calvin is a false teacher and a murderer

I wonder why so many follow his theology?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Lilstu,

Just came across this interesting quote from John Calvin.
John Calvin, the Swiss Protestant reformer, made the following observation regarding John 10:30: "The ancients greatly perverted this passage, when they would prove from it, that Christ is of identically the same nature (or consubstantial) with the Father. For Christ speaks not concerning an unity of substance; but of the mutual agreement between the Father and himself; to wit, affirming, that, whatsoever he does, would be sanctioned by the power of the Father."
What do you think?

I may partly agree with Calvin’s comment here, but he was a Trinitarian and was known for his opposition to non-Trinitarians.
John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jesus himself explains what he meant in v30 by stating in v36: “I said, I am the Son of God”. Also vv34-36 is an answer to their accusation when he quotes and elaborates on the Scripture calling the Judges “gods”, or Elohim. Most Trinitarians seek to only emphasise v30 and ignore the very thorough answer given by Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Lilstu]

Greetings Lilstu,
I may partly agree with Calvin’s comment here, but he was a Trinitarian and was known for his opposition to non-Trinitarians.
John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jesus himself explains what he meant in v30 by stating in v36: “I said, I am the Son of God”. Also vv34-36 is an answer to their accusation when he quotes and elaborates on the Scripture calling the Judges “gods”, or Elohim. Most Trinitarians seek to only emphasise v30 and ignore the very thorough answer given by Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

Very Good Point, Trevor

Was Jesus really claiming to be God?
Did the Jews really think he was God?

Jesus may have been just claiming a special intellectual relationship with God. That he and God were in total agreement intellectually.
The Jews may have believed that by claiming this relationship with God, Jesus was violating one of the 613 laws of Judaism.
Namely.......
Leviticus 19:12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 You shall not swear falsely by My name, so as to profane the name of your God; I am the Lord.

By claiming to be the intellectual equal of God, Jesus was profaning the name of God. He was profaning God's reputation.

The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be like God.”

Jesus and the Jews all knew that God is a Spirit. [John 4:24]
Obviously to all, Jesus was flesh and blood, and not a Spirit.
Therefore all knew that Jesus was claiming to be LIKE God intellectually.
This was blasphemy; because being a man, Jesus could not be the intellectual equal of God and be like God.”

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Lilstu,

Therefore all knew that Jesus was claiming to be LIKE God intellectually.
This was blasphemy; because being a man, Jesus could not be the intellectual equal of God and be like God.”

To be the Son of God is to be like God, and with Jesus there is a fullness about his claim. Jesus is claiming to be the Son of God John 10:36 and this involves his birth Luke 1:35, and his character and his complete way of life and words and miracles. Jesus’ answer was that firstly that his works or miracles were clear evidence that The Father was with him. Then he quotes Psalm 82:6 and speaks about the role of the Judges and why they were called gods or Elohim. These judges were called Elohim because they represented God, having been given God’s Law to administer in impartial and faithful judgement (unlike his present accusers - possibly he elaborated here). Then Jesus draws attention to the fact that God had sanctified Jesus and sent him into the world. Then finally he takes some of the ambiguity out of his original statement by explaining that his original statement in John 10:30 and his claim is that he is the Son of God, not God Himself. There was NO blasphemy in his claim.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jdorman]

Just came across this interesting quote from John Calvin.

John Calvin, the Swiss Protestant reformer, made the following observation regarding John 10:30: "The ancients greatly perverted this passage, when they would prove from it, that Christ is of identically the same nature (or consubstantial) with the Father. For Christ speaks not concerning an unity of substance; but of the mutual agreement between the Father and himself; to wit, affirming, that, whatsoever he does, would be sanctioned by the power of the Father."

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/jo...ted_scriptures

What do you think?

Col 2:9

Sent from my LG-H443 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[jamie]

Jesus and the Jews all knew that God is a Spirit. [John 4:24]
Obviously to all, Jesus was flesh and blood, and not a Spirit.
Therefore all knew that Jesus was claiming to be LIKE God intellectually.
This was blasphemy; because being a man, Jesus could not be the intellectual equal of God and be like God.”

Why do you believe Jesus was not indwelt by God's Spirit?

 

[Lilstu]

Why do you believe Jesus was not indwelt by God's Spirit?

Obviously to all, Jesus was flesh and blood, and not a Spirit.
Nobody can see inside

 

[jamie]

Obviously to all, Jesus was flesh and blood, and not a Spirit.

In Romans 8:9 Paul said, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you."

We are an unborn Spirit being.

Paul explained, "For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now."