ECT How is it that 'Christian' folk are . . . . .

[Cross Reference]

. . . . more worshipful of their church and pet doctrines ABOUT Jesus Christ than the pursuit of Himself?

Jesus said this about such ventures:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And [yet] ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. John 5:39-40 (KJV)

"But I know what kind of people you are. You don't have any love for God."John 5:42 (GW)

And these same people believe they will be raptured and receive "crowns" simply because they repeat a mantra every week and "Jesus did it all", falsely believing they are exempt from seeking Him further, even for His sake..

I personally know that the church at large is in this condition and it is a sign of the [end] times.

 

[Aimiel]

Nevertheless, when The Son of Man comes, will He find faith in the earth?

 

[Cross Reference]

Nevertheless, when The Son of Man comes, will He find faith in the earth?

Isn't that to be warning that leadership is 'wilfully' ignorant of -- for mamons sake?

 

[Aimiel]

Jesus wanted His disciples to make disciples, who would then make more disciples. We've forgotten discipleship and the cross. We need to get back to the basics.

 

[Totton Linnet]

. . . . more worshipful of their church and pet doctrines ABOUT Jesus Christ than the pursuit of Himself?

Jesus said this about such ventures:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And [yet] ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. John 5:39-40 (KJV)

"But I know what kind of people you are. You don't have any love for God."John 5:42 (GW)

And these same people believe they will be raptured and receive "crowns" simply because they repeat a mantra every week and "Jesus did it all", falsely believing they are exempt from seeking Him further, even for His sake..

I personally know that the church at large is in this condition and it is a sign of the [end] times.

Your mantra is "Jesus did a little but I have done much"

Your problem is that you can't distinguish between what Jesus says to His disciples and what He says to His enemies.

Yes, yes, you know alright...you you you

 

[Cross Reference]

Jesus wanted His disciples to make disciples, who would then make more disciples. We've forgotten discipleship and the cross. We need to get back to the basics.

Amen, Brother! Time is short and the Lord is coming for a prepared people, isn't He?

 

[Buzzword]

. . . . more worshipful of their church and pet doctrines ABOUT Jesus Christ than the pursuit of Himself?

Jesus said this about such ventures:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And [yet] ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. John 5:39-40 (KJV)

"But I know what kind of people you are. You don't have any love for God."John 5:42 (GW)

And these same people believe they will be raptured and receive "crowns" simply because they repeat a mantra every week and "Jesus did it all", falsely believing they are exempt from seeking Him further, even for His sake..

At least in evangelical churches, there has been a constant focus on apologetics for at least the past two generations, because pastors started reading C.S. Lewis and assuming themselves and their flocks able to argue others to Christ.

This focus includes all of the more willfully ignorant doctrines of inerrancy, creationism, eternal torment, the "rapture," etc etc. and has kept churches devoting huge amounts of energy to training their members to defend these doctrines, to the exclusion of any kind of help for the poor or reaching out to the community in any kind of authentic way.

Of course it has coincided with the evangelical push into politics, which has further crippled any attempts to help the poor (who are treated as moochers and given tracts instead of food or blankets) in individual communities, and alienated people who are not already members from even attempting to come into the church, or Christianity as a whole.

When all you have to offer people is arguments, you can't act surprised when they won't give you the time of day, especially when there are Christians willing to reach out with compassion and share personal experiences of Christ's presence in their lives, instead of launching a hermeneutical laundry list at them.

The best evidence of our faith is our personal testimony, always and forever, because no one can disprove your experiences. No rational person can say "That didn't happen to you!"
And it is our experiences which leave the most indelible marks upon us, which most influence our growth as Christians and as people.

And personal experience of God is no respecter of persons. Whether it's a push in the middle of your chest during an altar call or a sense of peace in the desert after a terrible battle or sudden strength in the midst of weakness, these are the moments when God feels most real to us, and through these experiences we can reach out to others, especially after surviving trauma.

Doctrinal minutiae can be argued 'till the cows come home (as we see 24/7 on TOL), but it's just philosophy if the contestants don't have personal experience of the divine in their lives.

We cannot bring others into Christ.
The Spirit brings them.
We must simply hold the door open.

And the way to do that is not to argue them in, but to reach out, take hold, and build a relationship.

The knowledge of Scripture and one's personal doctrines comes into play AFTER the relationship has been established, or not at all.
And "not at all" happens much more often than pastors are apparently comfortable with, because the Spirit does not follow our timetable.
So keep yourself focused on building and strengthening the relationship.
Be ready to answer questions, but until they are asked, focus on the other person's needs, not on your desire to convert them.

 

[Cross Reference]

And the way to do that is not to argue them in, but to reach out, take hold, and build a relationship.

Thanks Buzz. That was well thought out and I appreciated reading it.

Here's my problem with some of it:

Church people, for the most part are affluent; like their life as it is and, because of perceived blessings, convinced they have Jesus, too. All are awaiting a pre-trib rapture that isn't going to happen for the serious Christian. Big disappointment in store them. I'm afraid. To speak of Jesus in any personal way is reveal some sort of fanaticism for you. They are comfortable and do not wish their lives to be disturbed.

The knowledge of Scripture and one's personal doctrines comes into play AFTER the relationship has been established, or not at all.
And "not at all" happens much more often than pastors are apparently comfortable with, because the Spirit does not follow our timetable.
So keep yourself focused on building and strengthening the relationship.
Be ready to answer questions, but until they are asked, focus on the other person's needs, not on your desire to convert them.

Jesus said this:

"This is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent." John 17:3 (GW)

To know Him is to possess that relationship you speak of, the pursuit of it carrying its own fulfillment. Nothingness will suffice and everything else evangelical will be fruitful. That is God's promise. I know that in my heart and life He has been faithful in bringing me into.

As with David, it is also my experience for which Ps 3 [KJV] is my song:

Psalm 63

A psalm by David when he was in the wilderness of Judah.

O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;
To see thy power and thy glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.
Because thy lovingkindness is better than life, my lips shall praise thee.
Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.
My soul shall be satisfied as with marrow and fatness; and my mouth shall praise thee with joyful lips:
When I remember thee upon my bed, and meditate on thee in the night watches.
Because thou hast been my help, therefore in the shadow of thy wings will I rejoice.
My soul followeth hard after thee: thy right hand upholdeth me.
But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.
They shall fall by the sword: they shall be a portion for foxes.
But the king shall rejoice in God; every one that sweareth by him shall glory: but the mouth of them that speak lies shall be stopped. Psalm 63:1-11 (KJV)

 

[Buzzword]

To speak of Jesus in any personal way is reveal some sort of fanaticism for you. They are comfortable and do not wish their lives to be disturbed.

The comfort zone issue has been a thorn in my side across multiple congregations, because it makes people refuse to admit that they have doubts or don't understand something, so that they ostracize (or demonize) anyone who comes into their midst asking difficult questions.

Even with all the apologetics focus, it's astonishing how many PASTORS have been rendered blubbering masses of inapplicable Bible verses by the questions of many of my Atheist and Agnostic friends who were raised in the church.

My friends and I know the text, we speak the language (whether Christianese or Biblespeak), and know all the pat responses, and routinely dissect them to actually address the specific issue.

This is especially true in the stereotypical small-town church, which is mostly homogeneous in dogma and doctrine, and most people haven't even encountered someone of a vastly different belief system (or lack of one), or perspective, or life experiences, and are in spite of their own efforts ill-equipped.

Even with so much energy put into debating, most church people when actually ruffled fall to name-calling (whether actively or passively aggressive), presumption of the state of the ruffler's soul, or just spew the same platitudes in a spaghetti-on-the-wall fashion.

 

[Aimiel]

I was fortunate enough to spot disciples and hold on to them like grim death. I learned to study, pray and most important: listen.

 

[Cross Reference]

I was fortunate enough to spot disciples and hold on to them like grim death. I learned to study, pray and most important: listen.

I wish you two lived closer. I need fellowship with hungry, seeking people.

On the doctrinal side of things, I don't believe anything can be accomplished without Pentecost in the mix [not to be confused with what we see on TV]; the acknowledgment of a needed dynamics that cannot be experienced by the nominal self sufficient Christian unless by some sovereign operation of God in which case it will be evidenced to relieve all doubt. In this, lives will be changed for His Kingdom.

I pray God blesses you both.