Eve's Posterity

[WeberHome]

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Eve's body was made from Adam's body. (Gen 2:21-23)

Consequently, when children are conceived by women that are biologically related to Eve, then the women and the children are biologically related to Adam: whether naturally-conceived or virgin-conceived makes no difference, i.e. every child that biologically descends from Eve also biologically descends from Adam.

● Gen 3:15 . . I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

It's pretty much agreed by most Christians that Eve's predicted offspring was realized in Christ; which means that the baby Jesus was not only Eve's biological offspring but Adam's too.

So then; the only way to cut Jesus out of Adam's biological posterity is to cut his mother out of Eve's biological posterity; and I've yet to encounter anyone either online or in church able to do that.
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[WeberHome]

Re: Eve's Posterity

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Q: If Adam really was Jesus Christ's biological progenitor, then wouldn't he share Adam's guilt in the matter of the forbidden fruit just like everybody else in accord with Rom 5:12 and Rom 5:19?

A: Yes, absolutely; there are no exceptions. In point of fact; Christ didn't come into the world with holy flesh, he came with sinful flesh.

● Rom 8:3 . . By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh.

● Heb 2:16-17 . . For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God

Ergo: nobody is born into this world 100% innocent; which is the reason why infants and underage children die the same as grown-ups. The poor things are condemned to die right from the moment of conception. So then, had Jesus not been crucified, he would have eventually passed away of some other cause.

● Heb 9:27 . . It is appointed for men to die once

Q: If Jesus Christ was made a joint principal in Adam's sin, then how can it be honestly said that Christ was a lamb without blemish or spot? (1Pet 1:19)

A: Christ committed no personal sins of his own. (John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1Pet 2:22)

Q: What was the secret to his success?

A: The secret lies in the manner by which the so-called sin nature is acquired.

Did Eve have the so-called sinful nature? Well; she sure did because the moment that Adam finished tasting the fruit, they both got the urge to cover their pelvic areas; whereas before the incident, neither was concerned about their appearance in the buff.

From where did Eve acquire the so-called sinful nature?

It's believed by a pretty large percentage of Christians that the fallen nature is inherited from one's parents; specifically one's biological father. But Eve was already in existence before Adam tasted the fruit; so he could not, nor did he, pass it on to her biologically by means of procreation..

In the past, I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit had something to do with Eve's altered state of mind; but now I seriously doubt it because Eve was the first to eat the forbidden fruit, and when she did, nothing happened. She remained shameless and went about in the buff as usual. It wasn't till Adam tasted the fruit that something altered Eve's conscience; so I'm pretty sure that the underlying cause is far more serious than the chemistry of that fruit.

I think we can safely rule out the fruit. If so; then we're left with two alternatives: either God did it to her, or the Serpent did it.

My money is on the Serpent. The New Testament reveals that he is able to tamper with the human mind and body. Plus, he has the power of death. (Heb 2:14)

If true that the Serpent did it; then the sinful nature is likely given to everyone the very same way.

"Surely I was sinful at birth; sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Ps 51:5)

David's statement tells me that the Devil is able to tamper with zygotes in such a way that people come into existence with the sinful nature right from the gun. To my knowledge the Devil can't be everywhere at once, and seeing as how thousands of people are conceived every minute all over the world, then it's a pretty sure bet that he has at his disposal legions of invisible helpers to assist him in bringing sinful babies to life.

According to Eph 2:4, everybody, Christians included, have been victims of the power of death. The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield it the moment that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly that power worked on Adam and Eve. As soon as he tasted the fruit, they immediately set to work clothing their naked bodies.

So then; in order to prevent Jesus from becoming infected with the sin nature, it was only necessary to stop the Devil from getting to him in the womb.

NOTE: The upside to Adam's sin is that it isn't a sin unto hell. He and his posterity need only pass away in order to satisfy that particular sin's consequence. (Gen 2:16-17 and Rom 5:12). The consequences for his posterity's own personal sins is another matter.
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[ok doser]

... when children are conceived by women that are biologically related to Eve...

:freak:

what women aren't biologically related to adam and eve?

 

[Ktoyou]

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Eve's body was made from Adam's body. (Gen 2:21-23)

Consequently, when children are conceived by women that are biologically related to Eve, then the women and the children are biologically related to Adam: whether naturally-conceived or virgin-conceived makes no difference, i.e. every child that biologically descends from Eve also biologically descends from Adam.

● Gen 3:15 . . I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

It's pretty much agreed by most Christians that Eve's predicted offspring was realized in Christ; which means that the baby Jesus was not only Eve's biological offspring but Adam's too.

So then; the only way to cut Jesus out of Adam's biological posterity is to cut his mother out of Eve's biological posterity; and I've yet to encounter anyone either online or in church able to do that.
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Another blasphemous thread. Jesus was not born of Many's, or Eve's genetic make-up. as you seem to presume. Jesus was not divided, half man and half God. He was one whole person, who came through Mary by birth, yet was 100% God, as well 100% man.

You need to read more before you post this nonsense.

 

[WeberHome]

Re: Eve's Posterity

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Jesus was not born of Many's, or Eve's genetic make-up.

● Luke 1:32 . . the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

It's not difficult to prove that Mary's little boy was David's biological progeny.

● Acts 13:22-23 . . "I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfill all my will." Of this man's seed hath God, according to His promise, raised unto Israel a savior, Jesus.

● Rom 1:1-3 . . Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh

The koiné Greek word for "seed" in those two passages is sperma (sper' mah) which is a bit ambiguous because it can refer to spiritual progeny as well as to biological progeny; for example:

● Gal 3:29 . . If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed.

That seed is obviously spiritual progeny. But the seed in Acts 13:22-23 and Rom 1:1-3 is biological progeny because David's seed is "according to the flesh" i.e. his literal genetic material.

So then; unless somebody can prove-- clearly, conclusively, and without ambiguity; air tight and iron clad --that Jesus Christ isn't biologically related to David; then it's a foregone conclusion that Jesus is biologically related to Eve, and thus biologically related to Adam seeing as her body was made from his body. (Gen 2:21-23)
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[TrevorL]

Greetings WeberHome,

Q: If Adam really was Jesus Christ's biological progenitor, then wouldn't he share Adam's guilt in the matter of the forbidden fruit just like everybody else in accord with Rom 5:12 and Rom 5:19?
A: Yes, absolutely; there are no exceptions. In point of fact; Christ didn't come into the world with holy flesh, he came with sinful flesh.

.So then; unless somebody can prove-- clearly, conclusively, and without ambiguity; air tight and iron clad --that Jesus Christ isn't biologically related to David; then it's a foregone conclusion that Jesus is biologically related to Eve, and thus biologically related to Adam seeing as her body was made from his body. (Gen 2:21-23)

Jesus inherited sinful flesh, or more correctly Sin’s flesh Romans 8:3 through his mother Mary. Where I disagree with your exposition is that this does not introduce the concept of guilt, or original sin. We do not share the guilt of Adam and Eve’s transgression. Rather we suffer the consequences of their sin. Having human nature is our misfortune, not our crime. Jesus came bearing all the consequences of sin, so that in so bearing, and being without actual transgression, by thus suffering he could remove sin and its consequences, firstly in himself, and then in all that believe in him and then identify with him by baptism and living the crucified life Galatians 2:20.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[WeberHome]

Re: Eve's Posterity

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We do not share the guilt of Adam and Eve’s transgression.

The language and grammar of Rom 5:12 suggests to me that Adam's posterity bears their own individual responsibility for eating the fruit,

● Rom 5:12 . . Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.

The grammatical tense of "all sinned" is past tense, indicating that Adam's posterity from first to last, is accounted having eaten the fruit for themselves in real time, i.e. the very same time that Adam ate it; as joint principles in the act.

There's no sharing in that situation. Everyone bears their own load of guilt. God can point the finger at each and every one of Adam's posterity and legitimately accuse them of eating the fruit against His explicit command not to.

That's a strange code of justice but then it's to be expected that the Serpent's brood of second-rate gods would strongly disagree with the supreme deity's perception of good and evil.
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[TrevorL]

Greetings again WeberHome,

.The language and grammar of Rom 5:12 suggests to me that Adam's posterity bears their own individual responsibility for eating the fruit,
● Rom 5:12 . . Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.
The grammatical tense of "all sinned" is past tense, indicating that Adam's posterity from first to last, is accounted having eaten the fruit for themselves in real time, i.e. the very same time that Adam ate it; as joint principles in the act.
There's no sharing in that situation. Everyone bears their own load of guilt. God can point the finger at each and every one of Adam's posterity and legitimately accuse them of eating the fruit against His explicit command not to.
That's a strange code of justice but then it's to be expected that the Serpent's brood of second-rate gods would strongly disagree with the supreme deity's perception of good and evil.
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I appreciate the way you see this, but I do not agree that “because all sinned” applies directly to Adam’s eating of the fruit. Rather I understand it as a general statement that all have sinned. Inevitably all sin when they reach youth and adulthood.
Romans 3:23 (KJV): For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
I do not consider that the above is speaking of original sin, but actual transgression. Jesus is the exception as he never sinned. So the sequence in Romans 5:12 is that Adam sinned, he was then made subject to death, then this subjection to disease, suffering and death was passed on to his descendants. This sentence on his descendants is shown to be justified because all his descendants inevitably when grown also sin.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[WeberHome]

Re: Eve's Posterity

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Rom 5:12-19 explains an important element of Christianity.

In a nutshell: I participated in Adam's disobedience. As a result, I also participate in the consequences of his disobedience.

That's analogous to my participation in Christ's obedience; viz: just as I participated with Adam eating the fruit; so participated with Christ going to the cross.

I have been sentenced to die twice: the first time in the garden with Adam, and a second time on the cross with Christ. It's all on the books of course because here I am still alive and composing this marvelous sermon.

● Rom 6:3-11 . . Don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

● Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

● Col 3:2-3 . . Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

If the anti OSAS crowd fully understood Rom 5:12-19 they'd realize that just as there is no possibility of Christ ever going to hell for sin, there is no possibility of those who participated in his crucifixion ever going to hell for sin. And seeing as how Christ died for sin once, never to be repeated; so his participants also died for sin once: never to be repeated.

Rev 21:8 testifies that all liars are destined to undergo a fate akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron. That for them will be their second death. As for me, mine is over and done with; and seeing as how there are only two deaths, then I have nothing to fear from the possibility of a third.
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[Truster]

You seemed to have overlooked one verse containing a vital piece of spiritual information.

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth".

It was then given that The Messiah would beget other children who would be recreated with His likeness and in his image.

 

[Ktoyou]

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● Luke 1:32 . . the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

It's not difficult to prove that Mary's little boy was David's biological progeny.

● Acts 13:22-23 . . "I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfill all my will." Of this man's seed hath God, according to His promise, raised unto Israel a savior, Jesus.

● Rom 1:1-3 . . Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh

The koiné Greek word for "seed" in those two passages is sperma (sper' mah) which is a bit ambiguous because it can refer to spiritual progeny as well as to biological progeny; for example:

● Gal 3:29 . . If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed.

That seed is obviously spiritual progeny. But the seed in Acts 13:22-23 and Rom 1:1-3 is biological progeny because David's seed is "according to the flesh" i.e. his literal genetic material.

So then; unless somebody can prove:kookoo:-- clearly, conclusively, and without ambiguity; air tight and iron clad --that Jesus Christ isn't biologically related to David:kookoo:; then it's a foregone conclusion that Jesus is biologically related to Eve, and thus biologically related :kookoo: to Adam seeing as her body was made from his body. (Gen 2:21-23)
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Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall;
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again.

 

[Stripe]

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall;
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Said forget it, it's just an egg.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

 

[WeberHome]

Re: Eve's Posterity

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Back in the Old Testament, a curse was leveled upon a really bad king in Solomon's royal line to David's throne that reads like this:

● Jer 22:29-30 . . O land, land, land, hear the word of the Lord! Thus said the Lord: Record this man as without succession, one who shall never be found acceptable; for no man of his offspring shall be accepted to sit on the throne of David and to rule again in Judah.

The bad king's name was Jeconiah (a.k.a. Jehoiakim and/or Coniah). Joseph was one of his descendants. (Matt 1:11)

It's commonly believed that the curse extended to Joseph, so that had he been Jesus' biological father, it would have prevented Christ from ascending David's throne.

However, adopted children inherit from their fathers the same as biological children; so had the curse extended to Joseph, it would have extended to Jesus too whether he was virgin-conceived or not. In other words: seeing as how Jesus got into Solomon's royal line by adoption, then of course he would've got into the curse too because the throne and the curse would've been a package deal.

But the wording "to rule again in Judah" indicates that the curse on Jeconiah's royal progeny was limited to the time of his family's jurisdiction in Judah. So it was in effect only during the days of the divided kingdom with Judah in the south and Samaria in the north. That condition came to an end when Nebuchadnezzar crushed the whole country and led first Samaria, and then later Judah, off to Babylonian slavery.

When Messiah reigns, the country of Israel will be unified. His jurisdiction won't be limited to Judah within a divided kingdom, but will dominate all the land of Israel. So the curse doesn't apply to him.

● Ezek 37:21-22 . .You shall declare to them: Thus said the Lord God: I am going to take the Israelite people from among the nations they have gone to, and gather them from every quarter, and bring them to their own land. I will make them a single nation in the land, on the hills of Israel, and one king shall be king of them all. Never again shall they be two nations, and never again shall they be divided into two kingdoms.
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