Darwin Was Wrong about the Tree of Life

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Eggasai

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Every time an ape is dug up in Africa it's automatically one of our ancestors. Bob Enyart tells us about a 47 million year old Lemmur they call Ida is now our oldest ancestor. Piltdown Man is our ancestor, no wait it's a fraud. Taung Child is a chimpanzee, no wait, it's semi-bipedal. Homo habilis has a chimpanzee size brain but wait, let's put mythical tools in their hands and waive the cerebral rubicon.

Scientists say the cat-sized animal's hind legs offer evidence of evolutionary changes that led to primates standing upright - a breakthrough that could finally confirm Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. Notice the religious language Darwinians like to use, there's a reason for that:

"This specimen is like finding the Lost Ark for archeologists," lead scientist Jorn Hurum said at a ceremony at the American Museum of Natural History.

"It is the scientific equivalent of the Holy Grail. This fossil will probably be the one that will be pictured in all textbooks for the next 100 years." (Darwinius masillae)​

It's a religion, a temple of nature. It's appropriate that they name this little guy after Darwin, if not for Charles and his grandfather we would be thinking the a Lemmur is a Lemmur. Think I'm exaggerating? Consider this important question, do you know how many hominid fossils have been uncovered? Ok, how about Chimpanzee ancestors from between 2mya and 20mya. They have found three teeth in the Rift Valley back in 2005. Do you realize if the Chimpanzees where not alive today we would have no proof they ever existed.

Today was my first time listening to the show but I really like it.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 

Flipper

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Every time an ape is dug up in Africa it's automatically one of our ancestors. Bob Enyart tells us about a 47 million year old Lemmur they call Ida is now our oldest ancestor. Piltdown Man is our ancestor, no wait it's a fraud. Taung Child is a chimpanzee, no wait, it's semi-bipedal. Homo habilis has a chimpanzee size brain but wait, let's put mythical tools in their hands and waive the cerebral rubicon.

Your own literature places Habilis in the same genus as man. It's a great illustration of just how blurry the lines between hominid, ape and man actually are. You might want to check out Answers in Genesis's technical journal ARJ and read the paper:
"Baraminological Analysis Places Homo habilis, Homo rudolfensis, and Australopithecus sediba in the Human Holobaramin" .

Here's the abstract. Please pay particular attention to the last sentence and remember, this is from your literature, not mine:

The baraminic status of fossil hominids was tested using statistical baraminology techniques. Eight previously published cladistic studies of fossil and extant hominids were reexamined with baraminic distance correlation (BDC) and multidimensional scaling (MDS).

Results indicate that hominins may be divided into as many as four
different holobaramins: (1) the genus Homo (including Australopithecus sediba), (2) the genus Paranthropus, (3) Australopithecus africanus, and (4) Gorilla, Pan, Australopithecus afarensis, and Australopithecus garhi.

These results tentatively confirm the common creationist claim that fossil hominids can be divided into human and non-human categories. In contrast to many creationist claims, however, the present results
indicate that Homo habilis, Homo rudolfensis, and—most surprisingly—Australopithecus sediba belong in the human holobaramin. Future studies should focus on including postcranial characters in baraminic
distance calculations and developing a model for understanding biological similarity and the significance of human-like australopiths and the ape-like humans.

You also wrote:
Consider this important question, do you know how many hominid fossils have been uncovered? Ok, how about Chimpanzee ancestors from between 2mya and 20mya. They have found three teeth in the Rift Valley back in 2005. Do you realize if the Chimpanzees where not alive today we would have no proof they ever existed.

Good point. A nice illustration of the highly fragmentary nature of the fossil record. Forest dwellers (i.e. chimps) rarely seem to leave much of a fossil record.
 

Stripe

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Every time an ape is dug up in Africa it's automatically one of our ancestors. Bob Enyart tells us about a 47 million year old Lemmur they call Ida is now our oldest ancestor. Piltdown Man is our ancestor, no wait it's a fraud. Taung Child is a chimpanzee, no wait, it's semi-bipedal. Homo habilis has a chimpanzee size brain but wait, let's put mythical tools in their hands and waive the cerebral rubicon.INDENT]Scientists say the cat-sized animal's hind legs offer evidence of evolutionary changes that led to primates standing upright - a breakthrough that could finally confirm Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. Notice the religious language Darwinians like to use, there's a reason for that:"This specimen is like finding the Lost Ark for archeologists," lead scientist Jorn Hurum said at a ceremony at the American Museum of Natural History."It is the scientific equivalent of the Holy Grail. This fossil will probably be the one that will be pictured in all textbooks for the next 100 years." (Darwinius masillae) [/INDENT]It's a religion, a temple of nature. It's appropriate that they name this little guy after Darwin, if not for Charles and his grandfather we would be thinking the a Lemmur is a Lemmur. Think I'm exaggerating? Consider this important question, do you know how many hominid fossils have been uncovered? Ok, how about Chimpanzee ancestors from between 2mya and 20mya. They have found three teeth in the Rift Valley back in 2005. Do you realize if the Chimpanzees where not alive today we would have no proof they ever existed. Today was my first time listening to the show but I really like it. Grace and peace,Mark

You gotta link to your sources, mate. :)
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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Today was my first time listening to the show but I really like it.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Yep, it is a good show. I liked the TV show as well. It was on cable in Denver a decade ago or so.
 

Eggasai

New member
Your own literature places Habilis in the same genus as man. It's a great illustration of just how blurry the lines between hominid, ape and man actually are. You might want to check out Answers in Genesis's technical journal ARJ and read the paper:
"Baraminological Analysis Places Homo habilis, Homo rudolfensis, and Australopithecus sediba in the Human Holobaramin" .

Here's the abstract. Please pay particular attention to the last sentence and remember, this is from your literature, not mine:

Actually that's not my literature, I go to the scientific source material the vast majority of the time:

Like humans, [apes and monkeys] go through stages as they grow up. In his analysis of Taung, Dart did not fully appreciate that infant apes have not had time to develop features of the skull, such as thickened eyebrow ridges or attachment areas for heavy neck muscles, that set adult apes apart from human. Apparently he did not carefully consider the possibility that Taung's rounded forehead or the inferred position of the spinal cord might be due to the immaturity of the apelike specimen rather than to its resemblance to humans (Dean Falk, Braindance)​

The ape skulls average well under 500cc while humans are right around 1350cc. Homo habilis had a chimpanzee sized brain, in fact every skull before Turkana Boy was chimpanzee sized. Turkana Boy on the other hand was identical to modern humans except for a slightly smaller skull.



You also wrote:


Good point. A nice illustration of the highly fragmentary nature of the fossil record. Forest dwellers (i.e. chimps) rarely seem to leave much of a fossil record.

That's not what is happening here, there is no reason to believe that Taung is anything other then a chimpanzee ancestor. Until the demise of Piltdown Man that is exactly what it was considered. Raymond Dart, the discoverer of the taung child would be the one to suggest the name Homo habilis (handy man) to Louise Leaky. Leaky from a child believed that early man was proficient in tools after reading a child's book called 'Tigi, Stone Age Hunter. His sister would say later that it became his Bible really. (See Virginia Morell, Ancestral Passions).

I keep finding this at the unveiling of every ape skull unearthed. Not a single chimpanzee skull and yet we would have cohabitated equatorial Africa right up until about 1mya.

A. Afarensis with a cranial capacity of ~430cc lived about 3.5 mya.
A. Africanus with a cranial capacity of ~480cc lived 3.3-2.5 mya.
P. aethiopicus with a cranial capacity of 410cc lived about 2.5 mya.
P. boisei with a cranial capacity of 490-530cc lived between 2.3-1.2 mya.
OH 5 'Zinj" with a cranial capacity of 530cc lived 1.8 mya.
KNM ER 406 with a cranial capacity of 510cc lived 1.7 million years ago.​

Then evolution makes this giant leap. The next link would have been Homo erectus with a cranial capacity of ~1000cc. KNM-WT 15000 (Turkana Boy) would have lived 1.5 mya and the skeleton structure shows no real difference between anatomically modern humans.

These supposed ancestors are never considered ape ancestors because they do not consider cranial capacity to be a basis for exclusion from the Homo clad. Louis Leaky called this the 'Cerebral Rubicon' and once crossing it there was no going back. Now every ape skull can be considered our ancestor. There is just one problem with that. The three-fold expansion of the human brain from that of apes had neither the time nor the means. That giant leap would have had to happen about 2mya and like every evolutionary giant leap has not genetic basis for it.

Charles Darwin proposed a null hypothesis for his theory of common descent :

“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” (Darwin, On the Origin of Species)​

With a cranial capacity nearly three times that of the chimpanzee the molecular basis for this giant leap in evolutionary history is still almost, completely unknown.

Have a nice day :wave:
 

DoogieTalons

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All he does is preach nonsense to idiots who want to hear it. So bray away like donkeys if you are a creationist you're a clown. You're on the very fringe of society. You are by all dictionary definitions RETARDED, you are held back by your religous beliefs.

Creation "Science" has not bought any predictions or any new stuff to the table, it's just mocking real science and sticking to scripture.

If this post comes of as disrespectful, it's because I am of all this nonsense.

Go get a doctorate yourselves study something real don't just listen to this religious loser telling you what science is doing he's so far off the mark it's not even funny.
 

Stripe

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All he does is preach nonsense to idiots who want to hear it. So bray away like donkeys if you are a creationist you're a clown. You're on the very fringe of society. You are by all dictionary definitions RETARDED, you are held back by your religous beliefs. Creation "Science" has not bought any predictions or any new stuff to the table, it's just mocking real science and sticking to scripture. If this post comes of as disrespectful, it's because I am of all this nonsense. Go get a doctorate yourselves study something real don't just listen to this religious loser telling you what science is doing he's so far off the mark it's not even funny.

:mock: PZ Myers.
 

chickenman

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You forgot to add smilies, Doodie, so that everyone would know you're just foolin' around really do love creationism.
 

Flipper

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Actually that's not my literature, I go to the scientific source material the vast majority of the time:

But why? Cladistical analysis is hardly a friend to the creationist, hence all the amusing controversy about what hominid fossils go where -- creationists have serious problems agreeing what constitutes an ape, a hominid (for those creationists who recognize such categories) or a human.

In the cases of newly discovered fossils, or when the species is known by highly fragmentary evidence, those who hold to the standard scientific paradigm have similar debates, but there's a lot less riding on it and some confusion is to be expected by the very nature of the evolutionary paradigm. It's a big problem for you guys, though.

Like humans, [apes and monkeys] go through stages as they grow up. In his analysis of Taung, Dart did not fully appreciate that infant apes have not had time to develop features of the skull, such as thickened eyebrow ridges or attachment areas for heavy neck muscles, that set adult apes apart from human. Apparently he did not carefully consider the possibility that Taung's rounded forehead or the inferred position of the spinal cord might be due to the immaturity of the apelike specimen rather than to its resemblance to humans (Dean Falk, Braindance)​

Seems a bit iffy to judge the entirety of modern anthropology based on the science of 1925. It seems that your view was indicative of the scientific consensus of the time. Now we have more Australopithecus fossils and better models, and the opinion is that Dart had it right.

The ape skulls average well under 500cc while humans are right around 1350cc. Homo habilis had a chimpanzee sized brain, in fact every skull before Turkana Boy was chimpanzee sized. Turkana Boy on the other hand was identical to modern humans except for a slightly smaller skull.

Well that's not the whole story:

Comparison of Cranial Capacities
range (cm3) ----- average (cm3)
chimpanzees 300-500 ----- ----
australopithecines 390-545 ----- ----
Homo habilis 509-752 ----- 610
Homo erectus 750-1250 ----- 930
Homo heidelbergensis 1100-1390 ----- 1206
Neandertals 1200-1750 ----- 1450
modern Homo sapiens 900-1880 ----- 1345

Source


That's not what is happening here, there is no reason to believe that Taung is anything other then a chimpanzee ancestor. Until the demise of Piltdown Man that is exactly what it was considered. Raymond Dart, the discoverer of the taung child would be the one to suggest the name Homo habilis (handy man) to Louise Leaky. Leaky from a child believed that early man was proficient in tools after reading a child's book called 'Tigi, Stone Age Hunter. His sister would say later that it became his Bible really. (See Virginia Morell, Ancestral Passions).

I keep finding this at the unveiling of every ape skull unearthed. Not a single chimpanzee skull and yet we would have cohabitated equatorial Africa right up until about 1mya.

But you're ignoring the inconvenient yet indisputable truth that Chimpanzees live in heavily forested areas, and the fossil record of almost all forest dwellers is extremely patchy because of acidic soils and many scavengers, so it's not at all likely that a good fossil record for modern chimps will ever become extant.

A. Afarensis with a cranial capacity of ~430cc lived about 3.5 mya.
A. Africanus with a cranial capacity of ~480cc lived 3.3-2.5 mya.
P. aethiopicus with a cranial capacity of 410cc lived about 2.5 mya.
P. boisei with a cranial capacity of 490-530cc lived between 2.3-1.2 mya.
OH 5 'Zinj" with a cranial capacity of 530cc lived 1.8 mya.
KNM ER 406 with a cranial capacity of 510cc lived 1.7 million years ago.​

Then evolution makes this giant leap. The next link would have been Homo erectus with a cranial capacity of ~1000cc. KNM-WT 15000 (Turkana Boy) would have lived 1.5 mya and the skeleton structure shows no real difference between anatomically modern humans.

Not according to the information I previously cited, and that's information didn't include all the known hominids.

These supposed ancestors are never considered ape ancestors because they do not consider cranial capacity to be a basis for exclusion from the Homo clad. Louis Leaky called this the 'Cerebral Rubicon' and once crossing it there was no going back. Now every ape skull can be considered our ancestor. There is just one problem with that. The three-fold expansion of the human brain from that of apes had neither the time nor the means. That giant leap would have had to happen about 2mya and like every evolutionary giant leap has not genetic basis for it.

And why is that? Positive selection can be comparatively speedy in evolutionary terms. In fact, in the case of dogs, where the artificial selective pressures were quite extraordinary, there is as much variation in the shape of skulls as there is in the entirety of Carnivora.

With a cranial capacity nearly three times that of the chimpanzee the molecular basis for this giant leap in evolutionary history is still almost, completely unknown.

Cranial capacity is a fairly rude indicator of intelligence, but I take your point. You might want to take a look at the MYH16, HAR complex and FOX-P. Some pretty swift evolution in HAR, but these genes are not protein coding, so it seems there was a bit more room for flex.
 

DoogieTalons

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Creationism could set us back so far it's unbelievable I can't understand why it is pushed when it is so very very wrong. It brings nothing new to the table, nothing at all but adherence to beliefs we are all frankly better than.

To waste your "God Given" intellect, trying against the tide of knowledge we have, to convince dumb sheep that the world is mere thousands of years old i am sure would be the highest sacrilege to any god capable of creating our brains.

Idiots the lot of them, such a gross waste of Grey matter.
 
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