Theology Club: Clearing up Peter and Paul

[surrender]

Jesus commanded his Twelve disciples to continue sharing the gospel that he began to Israel. His message included such things as: Jesus is the messiah (anointed one), Jesus is the son of God, Jesus is the king of Israel, Jesus is the one through whom God would deliver Israel, and prepare yourselves for the kingdom by loving one another.

The Twelve, which developed the Jerusalem Church, continued to share this gospel (good news) message about the king and kingdom to the surrounding area. Of course, new elements were included in the message by the Twelve after Christ’s death, resurrection and ascension. Before Jesus ascended, he commanded his disciples to take this message first to Jerusalem, then Judea, then Samaria and finally to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8).

The Old Testament prophets prophesied that the nation of Israel would be a great beacon of light of God’s salvation to the nations of the world. But for this to happen, the nation of Israel had to accept their Messiah. The Twelve preached to Israel for a few years after Christ’s resurrection, but the majority of Israel continued to reject their Messiah. Before the Twelve ever made it out of Israel and into the Gentile nations, God chose Paul to take the message of the gospel out to the nations. God was not about to let His plan of salvation for the ends of the earth to be put on hold just because of the stubborn Israelites.

Paul’s message included additional elements that the Jerusalem group would not have needed. The Twelve focused primarily on converting the Jews. The reason is because the plan was that the nation of Israel would first convert and then be a magnet to the surrounding nations. Paul was to reach out primarily to the Gentile nations and that’s why we see God sending him OUT on missionary trips. Since Paul was reaching out to Gentiles, his message obviously included elements as to how Gentiles were included in the blessings and promises of Israel.

Questions are welcome.

 

[Paulos]

Paul’s message included additional elements that the Jerusalem group would not have needed.

Which "additional elements that the Jerusalem group would not have needed" are you referring to?

 

[surrender]

Which "additional elements that the Jerusalem group would not have needed" are you referring to?

Specifics of how Gentiles are included. I'm assuming you know what I mean, but if not, let me know if you'd like Scripture. My family is waiting for me and I'm kind of in a hurry right now.

Here's an example that reduces the fear that is summoned in thinking that the Jerusalem group didn't know everything the moment Jesus ascended. It wasn't until AFTER Jesus' ascension that the Twelve began preaching about Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension, yet they were preaching the gospel BEFORE Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension and people were coming to faith BEFORE Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension.

The Twelve didn't need to preach the specifics of how Gentiles are included in the promises in order for Jews to come to faith. For that matter, Cornelius didn't need to know the specifics of how Gentiles are included for him and his entire household to come to faith.

 

[Guyver]

Surrender......the Jews didn't accept Jesus....by and large. John 1 informs that he came to his own, and his own did not receive him. And the Jews were certainly no beacon of light after Christ.....whatsoever.

In fact, to be real about it....they don't even have their religion because they have no temple to offer the sacrifices that God instructed them to.

Don't you think that the points you refer to in you OP have to do with the time of Christs millennial kingdom?

 

[Nick M]

Jesus commanded his Twelve disciples to continue sharing the gospel that he began to Israel. His message included such things as:

You left out some important details. Allow me.

Matthew 5

18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 10

1And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.

Matthew 15

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.

22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.” 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Matthew 19

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Matthew 23

1Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

Before the Twelve ever made it out of Israel and into the Gentile nations, God chose Paul to take the message of the gospel out to the nations. God was not about to let His plan of salvation for the ends of the earth to be put on hold just because of the stubborn Israelites.

Then what? Salvation is of the Jews, but not now.

And salvation for the ends of the earth was not put on hold, but sped up.

 

[surrender]

Surrender......the Jews didn't accept Jesus....by and large. John 1 informs that he came to his own, and his own did not receive him. And the Jews were certainly no beacon of light after Christ.....whatsoever.

The Jews were certainly not the beacon of light as described by the prophets in the OT.

In fact, to be real about it....they don't even have their religion because they have no temple to offer the sacrifices that God instructed them to.

Which I think is telling.

Don't you think that the points you refer to in you OP have to do with the time of Christs millennial kingdom?

I don’t rule it out as a possibility.

 

[surrender]

You left out some important details. Allow me.

Additional Scripture is always welcome.

Matthew 5
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:17-20 is the opening of Jesus’ speech which goes into how one exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees and fulfills the Law. Jesus introduces us to what the spirit of the Law looks like. A friend asked me why Jesus told the rich young ruler to obey the commands to inherit eternal life as if one really can earn salvation through this obedience.

The Mosaic Law was not annulled through Christ; it is fulfilled through Christ (Mat. 5:17). In Christ, we are not under the letter of the Law, we are under the spirit of the Law (i.e. the Law of Christ, 1 Cor. 9:21; Gal. 6:2). And this "spirit of the Law" concept is what Jesus taught his disciples in Matthew 5 with the “You have heard that the ancients were told…but I say to you…” sayings. Jesus teaches that living out the spirit of the Law is superior than living out the letter of the Law, and this teaching is preparation for Paul’s teaching that we are no longer subject to the Law of Moses, because we are now dead to the letter of the Law through Christ’s death and alive to the Spirit of the Law through Christ’s resurrection (Rom. 7:6; 8:2, 4; 2 Cor. 3:6). Of course, the beauty of the Spirit of the Law is that there is no death sentence.

In Matthew 5, Jesus teaches that it’s not enough to obey the letter of the law by not committing adultery or murder; you must go beyond the letter and embrace the spirit of the law by being faithful to your wife and kind to your fellow man in your heart. It’s not enough to obey the letter of the law by fulfilling your oaths; you must go beyond the letter and embrace the spirit of the law by being so transparently honest that no one would require an oath of you. You must go beyond the letter of the law in limiting your recompense to what you’re entitled to and embrace the spirit of the law by extending kindness and mercy to those who abuse you. Even if there were those who were flawless in terms of the letter of the Law, they would fall short of the spirit of the Law because of their flesh.

We are called to live the Law at a level the letter of the Law didn’t require. In Matthew 5, Jesus is not annulling anything; he’s asking his disciples to dig more deeply into the Law (Torah) to bring forth its heartfelt intent and calling his disciples to live at that level.

So, when Jesus tells the rich young ruler how to inherit life, Jesus goes beyond the letter of the Law, for the Law doesn’t require you sell everything you own and give it all away. The rich young ruler’s question reveals that he believes he can earn eternal life by living out the letter of the Law. Jesus doesn’t correct him but meets him where he’s at and tells him the level at which eternal life can be earned (i.e. living out the spirit of the Law). But how can anyone truly live out the spirit of the law when the spirit of the law is at the level of complete and utter self-sacrifice? Jesus tells us, “With God all things are possible.” And, we know Who it is that lived out the spirit of the Law with perfection, the one who lived at the level of complete and utter self-sacrifice. So, there’s only One who “earned” eternal life and that One calls us to live out the spirit of the Law, not because it will save us but because we are IN Him.

Matthew 10
1And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.

Matthew 15
3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.

22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.” 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

The plan was to convert all of Israel first, so that they could be the ones to take the gospel to the ends of the earth. Jesus wanted to give Israel every opportunity to be the first to receive so that they could be blessed and be a blessing by providing God's message. But the majority rejected Messiah.

Matthew 19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Ah, yes, here it is. This is the opening to the rich young ruler story. See above response to this.

Matthew 23
1Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

Yes, lovely. This is where Jesus points to the manifestations of the spirit of the Law: justice, mercy and faith. When we walk according to the spirit, we fulfill the letter of the Law (Rom. 8:4; Gal. 6:2).

Then what? Salvation is of the Jews, but not now.

The origin of salvation is Jewish because Jesus is Jewish and the initiators of the faith are all Jewish (see also Eph. 2:20).

 

[Nick M]

Additional Scripture is always welcome.

Matthew 5:17-20 is the opening of Jesus’ speech which goes into how one exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees and fulfills the Law. Jesus introduces us to what the spirit of the Law looks like.

He does no such thing. Look again. And Spirit is a capital "S". There is no spirit of the law, as in the intention. Is there some hidden intention of a law that says you shall not steal, and you shall not murder?

Matthew 23
1Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

They ought to do them without leaving the others undone. There is no change or new revleation. Loving your neighbor as yourself and God is the letter of the law. And that is what Jesus did in his earthly ministry. You haven't shown anything.


Deuteronomy 6:5

5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Deuteronomy 11:13

13 ‘And it shall be that if you earnestly obey My commandments which I command you today, to love the Lord your God and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul,

There is no variation between what the Lord Jesus Christ taught, and what Moses wrote. These you ought to do without leaving the others undone.

 

[surrender]

There is no change or new revleation.

I’m not saying that Jesus didn’t fulfill the letter of the Law, but he didn’t do that by limiting himself to the letter of the Law; he did it by living at a level the letter of the Law didn’t require (i.e. the Spirit of the Law). We see the “change” or new revelation with Jesus’, “You have heard that the ancients were told…but I say to you…” sayings. This is clearly new information. For example, the letter of the Law didn’t require one to be faithful “in your heart,” yet Jesus invites his disciples to now live at this level. Jesus came to fulfill the Law of Moses by living out the heartfelt intent of the Law, so that when we walk according to the Spirit, the letter of the Law might be fulfilled in us. Through Jesus, we are not liberated us from the righteous lifestyle advocated by the Law but from the impossibility of establishing and maintaining that righteousness ourselves. Meanwhile, God invites us to enjoy the righteous standard of living that can only be accomplished through Christ.

 

[Nick M]

I’m not saying that Jesus didn’t fulfill the letter of the Law, but he didn’t do that by limiting himself to the letter of the Law

What are you saying? That isn't saying anything. The law given by Moses says love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. That is the law. What did the Lord Jesus Christ do extra inside the law?

We see the “change” or new revelation with Jesus’, “You have heard that the ancients were told…but I say to you…” sayings.

This is corrections to their perversions of the law. You heard it said, but the law says....you left that out. On purpose or because you just don't know? Traditions are not the law.

Matthew 15

1Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment[ of God of no effect by your tradition.

Do you keep Matthew 23 as commanded or not? You aren't going to walk away without an answer, unless you are shown to be unwilling to answer. Your redirection will not work.

Matthew 23
1Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

Deuteronomy 6:5

5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Deuteronomy 11:13

13 ‘And it shall be that if you earnestly obey My commandments which I command you today, to love the Lord your God and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul,

 

[surrender]

What are you saying? That isn't saying anything. The law given by Moses says love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. That is the law. What did the Lord Jesus Christ do extra inside the law?

He did something they weren’t even considering: he lived out the spirit of the law.

Here’s an example something that can’t be done unless one reaches beyond the requirements of the letter of the law. I believe Jesus' teaching in Matthew 5 (anger, lust, divorce, vows, retaliation, etc.) was an introduction of what's expected of those who enter into the new covenant with God. He wasn’t abrogating the law; he’s teaching an even higher standard than what the law permits or demands. For example, the “eye for an eye, and tooth for a tooth” was a MAXIMUM for vengeance to prevent the sort of revenge cycle that characterizes near eastern societies. You cannot go beyond recompense for the injury you’ve suffered; that’s the limit of your rights as the injured party. Jesus moves his disciples BEYOND the limitation of their rights by exhorting them not to avail themselves to even the recompense which is rightfully theirs. The Law/Torah gives you right to “such-and-such” and nothing more; but by the grace of God, go beyond focusing on what you have the right to and extend mercy and grace to those who hurt you. By the way, the “eye for eye, and tooth for tooth” was not understood as literal by the ancients but an equivalent monetary retribution (except in the case of life).

We see the “change” or new revelation with Jesus’, “You have heard that the ancients were told…but I say to you…” sayings.

This is corrections to their perversions of the law. You heard it said, but the law says....you left that out. On purpose or because you just don't know? Traditions are not the law.

I agree they were perverting the law, but I didn’t leave out “but the law says” because that’s not what’s written. It says, “but I say to you…”.

“You have heard…but I say to you” (Mat. 5:21-22)
“You have heard…but I say to you” (Mat. 5:27-28).
“You have heard…but I say to you” (Mat. 5:31-32).
“Again the ancients were told…but I say to you” (Mat. 5:33-34).
“You have heard…but I say to you” (Mat. 5:38-39).
“You have heard…but I say to you” (Mat. 5:43-43).

By the way, Paul, too, tells us that those who do not keep the commandments (at least relating to morality) will not see life:
Idolaters (1 Cor. 6:9; Eph. 5:5) “You shall have no other gods before me” “You shall not make for yourself any carved image”
Adulterers (1 Cor. 6:9) “You shall not commit adultery”
Thieves (1 Cor. 6:9) “You shall not steal”
Covetous man (Eph. 5:5) “You shall not covet…”

Do you keep Matthew 23 as commanded or not? You aren't going to walk away without an answer, unless you are shown to be unwilling to answer. Your redirection will not work.

I’ve already answered this. Why would I keep any Jewish Laws when I’m a Gentile? That was settled two thousand years ago. Read Acts 15. There you will see that it was settled once and for all that Gentiles are not asked to become Jewish (i.e. circumcised) in order to partake in the new covenant God made with Israel.

 

[Nick M]

He did something they weren’t even considering: he lived out the spirit of the law.

Spirit is a "capital S" because it is God. And his law says love God and your neighbor.

Matthew 15

1Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment[ of God of no effect by your tradition.

They changed the law and did not follow it. They followed traditions.

 

[surrender]

Spirit is a "capital S" because it is God. And his law says love God and your neighbor.

Matthew 15

1Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment[ of God of no effect by your tradition.

They changed the law and did not follow it. They followed traditions.

Yes, they perverted the law. But when Jesus says, "You have heard what the ancients were told" Jesus is not talking about the perversion of the Pharisees, he's talking about Mosaic Law.

 

[Nick M]

Yes, they perverted the law. But when Jesus says, "You have heard what the ancients were told" Jesus is not talking about the perversion of the Pharisees, he's talking about Mosaic Law.

Matthew 15

1Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment[ of God of no effect by your tradition.

No he isn't.

 

[surrender]

Matthew 15

1Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment[ of God of no effect by your tradition.

No he isn't.

I'm talking about Matthew 5 where Jesus teaches his disciples, not Matthew 15 where Jesus rebukes the Pharisees and scribes. You're confusing chapters and lessons.

 

[Nick M]

I'm talking about Matthew 5 where Jesus teaches his disciples, not Matthew 15 where Jesus rebukes the Pharisees and scribes. You're confusing chapters and lessons.

I am not confusing anything. Jesus taught that the law be followed strictly, and by the letter.

Including ceremonial things like tithe where he says they should be doing justice mercy and not leaving the others undone. Everything you say is wrong.

 

[surrender]

I am not confusing anything. Jesus taught the law befollowed strictly and by the letter.

Including ceremonial things like tithe where he says they should be doing justice mercy and not leaving the others undone.

True. But he also said of the rich man that he must sell everything he owns in order to inherit eternal life. Where exactly is THAT in the law? It’s NOT! It’s called living out the “Spirit of the Law.” It is required of all of us, yet not one of us can live in such an utterly self-sacrificial way. Even if we try, our thoughts will, at some point, reveal our less than perfectly saintly ways and condemn us. I guess no one will inherit eternal life.

Everything you say is wrong.

That made me literally laugh out loud. I heard a child’s voice when I read it. You forgot to add, “Nah nah na nah nah!”

 

[Nick M]

True. But he also said of the rich man that he must sell everything he owns in order to inherit eternal life.

Israel was not permitted to trade with the beast during the Tribulation.

Acts 5

1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control?...7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?”

She said, “Yes, for so much.”

9 Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband.


See Daniel 7.

Revelation 13

16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

The Lord Jesus Christ taught Israel to be prepared for Jacob's trouble, aka the Great Tribulation. They were to live communally to survive, and were not permitted to trade. Those that kept the money did so to trade with the beast.

You have made no point. You have been shown, and you do not care. All you are doing is making things up that are not Biblical. Make your point or concede.

 

[surrender]

Why would you neg. rep me with "repent"? Repent from what? You are way too attached to this doctrine. It's become an idol to you.

And your above post is so completely speculative, it's ridiculous!