Do you accomplish that? Yes? No? Not quite sure?
What Would Be The Essential Components of Ensuring Eternal Life in Heaven.
- Thread starter Jenkins
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The Vatican clearly states certain works by people can do what Christ's Blood supposedly cannot do.
-Penance.
-Monetary Payments to The church.
-Speaking to Mary.
-Observing Supernatural Occurrances.
-Parroting Doctrines.
-Doing Mass.
-Looking at Icons.
-Going into a Certain Building.
-Reading Theology.
-Fumbling With a Rosary.
-Making Pilgrimage Journies.
-Repeating Scripture.
-Speaking Prescribed Prayers.
-Accepting a Human Priest.
-Burning Candles.
Legalistic double talk.
Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
It isn't true, Jefferson not in the way he means it. Connecting your work to salvation is legalism - period. Confirming or questioning a man's salvation based on his works is legalism. A man is saved by faith - period. Works do NOT come into it.
"Things Which Gracious Souls Discover:
- "To ‘hope to be better’ [hence acceptable] is to fail to see yourself in Christ only.
- "To be disappointed with yourself, is to have believed in yourself.
- "To be discouraged is unbelief,—as to God’s purpose and plan of blessing for you.
- "To be proud, is to be blind! For we have no standing before God, in ourselves.
- "The lack of Divine blessing, therefore, comes from unbelief, and not from failure of devotion…
- "To preach devotion first, and blessing second, is to reverse God’s order, and preach law, not grace. The Law made man’s blessing depend on devotion; Grace confers undeserved, unconditional blessing: our devotion may follow, but does not always do so,—in proper measure."
Have we been afraid to really believe God? Have some even been afraid to allow others to really believe Him? We must never forget that "God’s ways are not always man’s ways. To some men constant peril is the only spur to action, and many religions and psychologies are dependent on fear to keep their disciples in line. Fear, too, has a place in Christianity, but God has higher and more effective motivations than fear, and one of these is love. Often fear after a while produces only numbness, but love thrives on love. To promise a man the certainty of his destiny may seem, on the human level, like playing with fire; but this leaves God out of the picture. Those who have the deepest appreciation of grace do not continue in sin. Moreover, fear produces the obedience of slaves; love engenders the obedience of sons" (J. W. Sanderson, Jr.).
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Only Catholics and cults would have the temerity to teach such a thing outright. Even the most legalistic sects of Protestant Christianity don't typically teach such thing outright. It isn't that they teach it verbatim its that they imply it, its that they live their lives as though that's what they believe and they teach others to do the same. Indeed, it is the double mindedness of it that makes it so difficult to combat because the idea sounds foreign to their own ears and they're too close to their own actions to see what they are doing.
But whether they teach it outright or not, the real answer to the question, "Which group has ever taught or abides one form or another of legalism?" is, "Practically all of them!" It cannot be avoided by the vast majority because they fail to rightly divide the word of truth. The result is an inevitable mixture of law and grace. If you teach the gospel according to Jesus, you're a legalist. If you think you can learn the gospel through any one (or all) of the synoptic gospels, then you're a legalist. If you think Paul was the 13th Apostle, you're a legalist. If you think that Paul and Jesus taught the same thing, you are a legalist.
Clete
What do you mean by "honoring the words of Jesus Christ"?
Jesus was born under the law, obeyed the law and taught others to do the same!
Then why bother with them?
Says who? You?
This is the most false thing I've ever seen you type, Hoping! Where did you get this from?
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Then Romans 8 goes on to explain that it is the Spirit that works righteousness in us, not our flesh! Don't you get that the law is fleshly? Just as circumcision is a cutting off of the physical flesh, the law is a cutting off of the deeds of the flesh and you have NO POWER to overcome the flesh - period. No amount of you loving God will overcome your flesh. No amount of you loving your neighbor will overcome your flesh. The ONLY remedy for your flesh is DEATH!
Galatians 2:17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
So what more does the law have to say to the man who it has killed? Nothing!
Then why pay ANY attention to it? Why make any effort to abide by it? You do NOT need it! Get rid of it! All its good for is conviction and death! Indeed! The ministry of the law is precisely the same as the ministry of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Both have a ministry of death! Paul even explicitly called the law "the ministry of death" and "the ministry of condemnation" (2 Corinthians 3:7 & 9).
Romans 7: 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
In short, there is no "divine nature" aside from God's own nature which we only have access to through faith, not our flesh and therefore not through following any list of rules.
Note how instinctively the legalist runs to the law! Why did you pick murder? The law forbidding murder is the sixth of the laws given to Moses on Mt. Sinai. How about those who make idols or fail to honor the Father and Mother? Will thieves inherit eternal life? Is there none of the Ten Commandments that you've broken? Will you inherit eternal life?
You (and they) will if you believe the following...
- God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
- We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
- Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
- Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
- Jesus rose from the dead.
- If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.
Weren't you just asking someone to show you where anyone taught or abided this?
NO! Salvation is the result of conversion!
No one ever promised you a sinless life post conversion! Your flesh has not yet been redeemed nor will it be before either your physical death or Day of Redemption, whichever comes first. Until then, you are saddled with the flesh and are utterly incapable of being righteous.
Of course but neither will we!
Look, I am not here trying to tell you that it's okay to sin. Nor am I saying that it isn't good to do rightly nor that we aught not love our neighbor as ourselves. What I'm telling you is that we cannot do it. You - YOU - cannot live the Christian life! Until you figure that out and it becomes reality in your own heart, you'll find yourself constantly back at the Tree, eating more of it's fruit, which is the law, and the result will just be more confusion, frustration, sin and death.
The secret you need to learn is to stop trying to be righteous. You cannot do it. Any attempt will fail so stop banging your head against that wall and just rest in Him Who is your righteousness.
Miles J. Stanford put it this way...
The value of both the struggle to free ourselves from the old Adam-life and the equally fruitless efforts to experience the new Adam-life, the Christ-life, is to finally realize that it is utterly futile. Our personal, heart-breaking failure in every phase of our Christian life is our Father’s preparation for His success on our behalf. This negative processing of His finally brings us into His positive promise of Philippians 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." His "good work" in us is begun through failure (and this includes our strongest points), which continues on into His success by His performance and not ours. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (2:13). There is no question but that we all began in sheer grace, and we must continue and arrive on the very same basis: "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free" (Gal. 5:1).
Charles Trumbull said, "The effortless life is not the will-less life. We use our will to believe, to receive, but not to exert effort in trying to accomplish what only God can do. Our hope for victory over sin is not ‘Christ plus my efforts,’ but ‘Christ plus my receiving.’ To receive victory from Him is to believe His Word that solely by His grace He is, this moment, freeing us from the dominion of sin. And to believe on Him in this way is to recognize that He is doing for us what we cannot do for ourselves." We learned this principle at the time of our spiritual birth, and it seems that most of us have to learn it all over again for our spiritual growth and service. Fear not, dear friend; just hold firm to the fact of His purpose for you in Christ, and He will faithfully take you step by step into all the necessary preparation—He will do it.
- Principles of Spiritual Growth
Watchman Nee put it another way...
"God’s way of deliverance is altogether different from man’s way. Man’s way is to try to suppress sin by seeking to overcome it; God’s way is to remove the sinner. Many Christians mourn over their weakness, thinking that if only they were stronger all would be well. The idea that, because failure to lead a holy life is due to our impotence, something more is therefore demanded of us, leads naturally to this false conception of the way of deliverance. If we are preoccupied with the power of sin and with our inability to meet it, then we naturally conclude that to gain the victory over sin we must have more power. ‘If only I were stronger,’ we say, ‘I could overcome my violent outbursts of temper,’ and so we plead with the Lord to strengthen us that we may exercise more self-control.
"But this is altogether wrong; this is not Christianity. God’s means of delivering us from sin is not by making us stronger and stronger, but by making us weaker and weaker. This is surely a peculiar way of victory, you say; but it is the Divine way. God sets us free from the dominion of sin, not by strengthening our old man but by crucifying him; not by helping him to do anything but by removing him from the scene of action." - The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee (Nee's only book worth reading, by the way.)
In short, stop struggling to be better and rest in His perfection. He didn’t help us to be saved, and He doesn’t intend to help us live the Christian life. You can't do it! He can! But He won't unless you don't! He WILL NOT help you to be righteous. As soon as you pick it up to try, He will see to it that you fail. Why? Because you are already righteous IN HIM! Your attempts to be righteous are a denial of who you are in Christ. It is to resurrect the flesh and to take the law down off that Tree which Christ nailed it to. What result can there be other than failure?
Clete
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Clete,
Can you share with us a few things you recently have done which have been engendered by the Love from God? All believers need to hear edification and Godly spurrage.
Matt. 5:16 "Let your light shine before men."
This is probably going to sound evasive and I don't mean it to be but I really don't think in these kinds of terms and so I'm not sure what you're asking me. The time I spent writing those posts this morning is one thing that I think might qualify but, like I said, I'm not sure exactly what sort of "things I've done" that you've got in mind.
Basically, I'm just a normal guy who gets up every morning and works for a living in order to support my family and finance my life. I support a ministry that I believe is worthwhile and I am constantly trying to learn and to grow my own understanding and I try to teach my kids and anyone else within my circle of influence how to think biblically and to not lean on experiences and emotions in their search for truth.
I conduct my business affairs with integrity and put a lot of effort into trying to make my clients feel like they've under paid me. I am generous when I see an opportunity to be but do not consider anyone's need as a claim check on my life or money and I do not finance laziness or stupidity. A grumbling belly is the proper compensation for either.
In other words, I don't think in terms of "What good deed shall I do today?" or "What have I done this week for God?". I have nothing to offer God. Any good I do is accidental and in spite of myself. If anyone is blessed because of my relationship with God, that's entirely on God, not me. I am nothing. I have no light to shine. Christ is the only light.
Clete
Yes, I accomplish that.
Thanks be to God.
You are correct, I had forgotten all about them.
You two are talking about two different kinds of "works".
You seem to be referring to the works of the Law for salvation, ie., circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, tithing, etc.
Marke is referring to the naturally occurring deeds of converted believers who love God and others.
Again you have a different POV of what legalism is than myself.
Paul and myself see it as a return to the Jewish ways of the Law, ie., circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, tithing, etc. for salvation.
You see legalism as everything done naturally by a Christians after their conversion.
That is nothing I want to be a part of.
If you want to make me feel guilty for obeying Jesus, Peter, Paul, and others, you will be wasting your time.
So in the future, please elaborate on which sort of legalism you refer to.
Paul's, or those who don't want to obey the One they call their King.
I mean, Love God above all else, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Only in those ways that honored His Father.
Others, He saw as just the works of men.
I don't.
The ability to live soberly, with pure hearts, with meekness, and wisdom, is the product of submission to God and to our Lord Jesus Christ.
Says the bible...(2 Peter 1)...or is trusting the word of God allowable at your church?
Thanks for citing Paul's recollection of his preconversion state.
It is good to know he was given the road map to leave it behind.
Rom 7:23 was answered in Rom 8:2, and Rom 7:24 was answered in Rom 6:6.
Both the Rom 7 verses, and others too, were from his narrative of his past state trying to live the Jewish ideal, and failing therein.
That is why they are called the "past-narrative tense".
He has made the transition of both his past lament and past to future in this verse.
The flesh is gone, and he now walks in the Spirit.
Rom 8 goes into more detail.
Amen to that !!!
Thanks be to God for providing the way to, as Paul wrote in 1 Tim 5:24..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after."
My death has already occurred.
How did the Law kill "the man"?
You lost me there.
Great, you have picked out the REAL Law Paul wrote against.
We may be back in harmony now.
Is that not the nature we have after our baptism into Christ? (Rom 6:3-7)
Yes, it is !!!
It is one of the most obvious sins.
Is murder tolerable to you, Christ, God?
Mother?
I am not catholic.
And I don't murder or steal because the Law said not to, I do it because I live with love.
I believe all that, and if I continue therein I will find my name in the book of life on the last day.
Thankfully, God has given me all I need to manifest Him on the earth now.
Most importantly, His Spirit.
Agreed.
Fibbers will end up in the same lake of fire as mass murderers.
Different topic.
That is what I said.
You are wrong.
Paul wrote in Rom 6:6-7..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."
I believe it.
But I do, and so do all those reborn of Gods seed. (1 John 3:9)
Yes you are.
We can do it, but you need to quit ignoring the how-tos.
Yes we can, but you need to quit believing those who say you can't.
I have learned otherwise.
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Are you saying Sanderson is in error to state "Love engenders obedience from [God's] sons?"
How do you love your neighbor as yourself? Pay their mortgage and insurance? Yard work? Entertainment? Buy them a car? Buy them new clothes? Paint their house? Buy appliances? Gifts? What do you actually do for them on a routine basis beyond occasional tokenism?
I have done most of those things, because of the grace of God in me.
Because of the new nature God has provided for me.
Routinely?
I work at a food bank.
I wouldn't be able to call myself a Christian with a straight face if I didn't do those things.
What do you routinely do to glorify God and manifest both the life and death of our Savior?
Right Divider
Body part
Your pride is astounding.
You are the one making the distinction. Paul makes no such distinction. The only ones who do, teach law - by definition!
If you think that you can do things that facilitate, augment, enrich or otherwise improve your relationship with God, you're wrong and what you've done is taken a bite from the fruit of Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (a.k.a. the law) which Christ nailed to that other Tree at Calvary. (If you think that the tree analogy is coincidence then you do not understand the gospel and will inevitably teach law instead of grace, which your every post proves.)
You have no standing before God whatsoever nor are you the slightest bit capable of attaining it. The cockroach under your refrigerator has more standing before you than you do before the only living, righteous, pure, holy and just God that exists. You are far more evil than you ever imagined and have precisely nothing to offer God. You have nothing more to contribute than did Abraham when God put him into a deep sleep before passing between the cut pieces of the sacrifice (Genesis 15). God did not need your help to save your soul from sin and He needs exactly the same amount of help for the rest of the process.
Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!
Does this mean that the believe does nothing good? Of course it doesn't mean that. If you think that's what I'm saying then you are frankly unqualified to even be having this discussion. What is means is that our actions, whether good or bad, DO NOT contribute to our righteousness! Note that I said "righteousness" and not "salvation". I am not talking, as you suggest, about works having to do with our salvation. No one here believes that our works have anything to do with our salvation. What I'm telling you is that they have exactly the same amount of value toward our righteousness.
YOU ARE NOT RIGHTEOUS BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU DO!!!!
You are made righteous before God because of what you believe. Every good work you perform outside of that context is of your flesh and it will be burned up on that Great Day.
Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Christ is the beginning, the end, and everything in between. He is the foundation and He is the roof. He is the whole of the Christian life. We labor rightly, He brings the increase, not us. Any progress that is made, is in spite of us not because of us. Our only mode of success in the Christian life is to crucify our flesh and get out of God's way.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
The key is to understand that we are not becoming righteous but that we ARE righteous! Our relationship with God cannot be improved upon by our effort because it is not based upon our efforts. Tell me, what do you think the result would be if you attempted to improve something that was perfect? Would you improve it or damage it?Clete
Only one of us is right.
Salvation and sanctification are achieved the same way, by faith. (Galatians 3:3)
I see legalism as any good deed done for the purpose of improving one's relationship with God.
Not consciously.
Jesus, Peter, James, at al. All of the disciples, apostles and biblical authors, save one, were all called into relationship with God through the law of Moses. They followed the law, were zealous for the law and taught their followers to do the same (Acts 21:20) and they did so until their natural death.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
The church age did NOT begin in Acts 2. Pentecost was (is) a Jewish feast day. It comes in line after the feasts of Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits. In other words, Jesus was still in the process of fulfilling Old Testament prophecy and the program for Israel was still fully intact as of the events of Acts chapter 2. This is confirmed by what Peter preached in that same chapter and by their actions in the chapters immediately following.
If you "Obey Jesus" in the way you're meaning it, then you're a practicing Jew.
If you actually obey Jesus and believe the gospel which He gave by revelation to the Apostle Paul, then there's no need to feel guilty about anything!
I've been clear. It is your own doctrine which clouds your vision.
Jesus IS NOT your King! Not in the manner you mean it, anyway. Your every thought has Israel and the church entangled in such a tight knot that confusing the two is intuitive and impossible to avoid.
You are not a member of the House of Israel nor will you ever be! When Christ sits on David's throne, you will NOT be one of His subjects! At most, you will be under His authority as a visitor from a foreign land and only that if you decided to come down from Heaven to visit Jerusalem or something.
This is a paradigm level issue. You are quite incapable of seeing it and the only reason I know which of us is right and which is wrong is because I grew up within YOUR paradigm and can see both clearly.
That last sentence is the most important sentence you've read in the last ten years. Don't ignore it.
Clete
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This post was mostly an unresponsive waste of time. I'll respond to two points mostly for the sake a clarity as the other posts I've responded to already covers most of this anyway....
Context is everything!
Who was Peter's audience?
Be specific.
(Chances are the question will go unanswered.)
The context was the Ten Commandments therefore my typo was an obvious mistake that you definitely noticed.
This sort of dishonest discourse is what makes most of this website, and you in particular, a useless waste of everyone's time. There was a reason I had you on ignore.
I wonder what it is that convinces people that they are on the right track doctrinally when they are incapable of having honest discussions with people who disagree with their dogma. And that's what it is, Hoping! It's dogma. When you cannot defend what you believe and don't care to even try but dive head first into stupidity like "I'm not a Catholic.", it stops being anything that can be debated. If you cannot demonstrate that you're capable of better then I'll simply stop giving you the opportunity to waste any more of my time.
Clete