Exhuastive Divine Foreknowledge is False

[Clete]

The following, more or less formal, argument seeks to prove that the doctrine of Exhaustive Divine Foreknowledge cannot be true. I say that it is a "more or less" formal argument only because there are points within it that have not been formally established for the sake of brevity. You can only make these posts so long and expect anyone to read them. If any of those particular points become challenged then the effort can be made to establish them at that time.




I should point out that I am not the originator of a large portion of this argument although I have taken the liberty of editing the wording slightly both for the sake of clarity and to help avoid distraction onto issues that are not directly relevant to the actual argument.




Lastly, there are some terms that need defining. Be sure you're familiar with these terms before even reading the argument. If you don't, the result will be confusion.




Necessary: A logical necessity is a proposition that cannot be false.

The easiest to see examples are mathematical expressions like 2+2=4. There is no way for that statement to be false. There can be no rationally coherent argument made to refute it. Another example is "All bachelors are single." This non mathematical statement is less intuitively "necessary" in that you probably tried to see if there was a way you could figure out how to find a counter example but there isn't one and any counter example anyone attempted to postulate would implicitly (or explicitly) change the definition of the terms used in the statement. In fact, it is the concept of logical necessity that all "by definition" arguments are based on.




Sufficient condition: A sufficient condition is any condition that guarantees the existence of some other condition. (If A then B.)

Put it other terms, a sufficient condition is any condition that makes some other condition a logical necessity.

If you get every answer on the test correct you will pass the text. Thus answering every answer correctly is a sufficient condition of passing the test. Note that answering every question correctly is not a necessary condition of passing the test. You may only answer 90% of the question correctly and still pass. The point here is that if a particular condition exists (answering every question correctly) then another condition (passing the test) is certain to be true.




Necessary condition: A necessary condition is any condition that must exist in order for some other condition to be possible. (If A then B is possible. If not A then not B.)

Light is a necessary condition of color. If there is no light, color cannot exist. An object that fully absorbs all light also has no color and so you could also say that reflected light is a necessary condition of color. Another example is that air is a necessary condition of human life. Remove a human being's ability to breath air and the human immediately begins to die. Note that air does not guarantee human life but that it merely make it possible. That's what makes it a necessary condition and not a sufficient condition.




Okay, so with that all firmly in mind let's get to it....




T = You turn on a lamp tomorrow at 9 am

1. Christianity is true. (i.e. God exists, God became a man and died on our behalf, etc) [Contextual presupposition]
2. Yesterday God (or anyone else) infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
3. If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
4. It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
5. Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
6. If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
7. So it is now-necessary that T. [2,3,4]
8. If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
9. Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than turn on a lamp tomorrow at 9 am. [7, 8]
10. If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
11. Therefore, when you turn on a lamp tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [9, 10]
12. The Christian faith is based on the concept of love (i.e. Love is a "necessary condition" of the Christian faith).
13. Love is volitional, by definition. (i.e. Volition (i.e. free will) is a necessary condition of love.)
14. If love is a necessary condition of Christianity and free will is a necessary condition of love then free will is a necessary condition of Christianity. [Transfer of necessity principle] (If a then b and if b then c therefore if a then c).
15. The doctrine of exhaustive divine foreknowledge and free will are mutually exclusive [2-10].
16. Therefore, the doctrine of exhaustive divine foreknowledge is false. [1,15]

QED

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Clete, if you are right that God doesn't have exhaustive foreknowledge then please explain the following passage:

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim.1:9; KJV).​

God knew which "individuals" would believe and it is "individuals" who are baptized into "Christ Jesus." He knew which individuals would believe "before the world began."

That certainly sounds like exhaustive foreknowledge to me.

 

[Right Divider]

Clete, if you are right that God doesn't have exhaustive foreknowledge then please explain the following passage:

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim.1:9; KJV).​

God knew which "individuals" would believe and it is "individuals" who are baptized into "Christ Jesus." He knew which individuals would believe "before the world began."

That certainly sounds like exhaustive foreknowledge to me.

It was the "purpose and grace" that were "given us" before the world began. Not the selection or knowledge of individual believers.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It was the "purpose and grace" that were "given us" before the world began. Not the selection or knowledge of individual believers.

The verse is speaking about being "saved" in Christ Jesus:

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim.1:9; KJV).​

It is individuals who believe and it is individual believers who are baptized into the Body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

"Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually" (1 Cor.12:27).​

 

[Right Divider]

The verse is speaking about being "saved" in Christ Jesus:

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim.1:9; KJV).​

Yes, it speaks about the saved, but it does not say specifically say that He is talking about knowing the members individually at that time.

 

[Lon]

:think:

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Galatians 1:15 He who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace

Luke 1:15 For he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.

1Ki 13:2 And the man cried against the altar by the word of the LORD and said, “O altar, altar, thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, a son shall be born to the house of David, Josiah by name, and he shall sacrifice on you the priests of the high places who make offerings on you, and human bones shall be burned on you.’”

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, it speaks about the saved, but it does not say specifically say that He is talking about knowing the members individually at that time.

The only way that the LORD could know those whom He has saved since the world began and placed into the Body of Christ is individually.

 

[Clete]

Clete, if you are right that God doesn't have exhaustive foreknowledge then please explain the following passage:

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim.1:9; KJV).


God knew which "individuals" would believe and it is "individuals" who are baptized into "Christ Jesus." He knew which individuals would believe "before the world began."

That certainly sounds like exhaustive foreknowledge to me.

Jerry,

Is it your intention to argue that the bible is false?

If not, then is your intention to ignore the argument or what?

In other words, the argument I've presented stands unrefuted. Never mind unrefuted, it stand as completely unchallenged! So far as I can tell it it irrefutable and in that case the bible cannot be true IF it teaches exhaustive divine foreknowledge which you seem to want to jump right into defending.

So, I ask again, it is your intention to argue that the bible is false? I ask that because that's what you'd accomplish if you successfully proved that the bible teaches a doctrine that is rationally impossible.

Now, because I don't want to act as if your question is invalid, I'll give you an answer but I will not debate it. I started the thread to debate the argument that I presented in the opening post, not to give others a jumping off point to rehash the same boring unconvincing "arguments" that have been "debated" here for years. Please at least make some attempt to address the argument as presented because if it is valid, your doctrine is false.

The passage you reference has to do with a group of people. All such passages dealing with God's foreknowledge always have to do with groups with only the rarest of exceptions and even those aren't talking about the sort of foreknowledge being discussed in my argument. Groups are very predictable. Even we imperfect human beings are quire good at predicting the behavior of groups. God, of course, can do so with far better precision than we could ever hope to accomplish because He not only has immediate access to all pertinent information but is also infinitely intelligent and wise beyond measure.

Also, the passage you reference is about that group of people who will join the Body of Christ. Christ is God Himself and He, as God, has the absolute right and unassailable ability to determine His own future actions. There is nothing hostile toward issues of morality (i.e. love, justice, righteousness, etc) for Him to determine in advance the eternal fate of that group of people. Indeed, whether it was the Body of Christ or not, there would be no moral issue with God determining in advance the fate of any group of people so long as the membership of that group was entered into by choice and with an understanding of the ramifications of that choice. In other words, it would not be just for God to either save or condemn a group of people based on something like their genes or their birth date or whether they ever tripped and fell or some other consideration that the people in that group did not choose. But for God to decide in advance that those who would trust in Him would be saved, doesn't make a mockery of justice because God Himself CHOSE to willingly allow Himself to be killed in just payment for the sins of the whole world. It was to Him the debt was owed and it was Him who paid it. He owns both sides of the ledger and has the absolute right to benefit whomever He decides to benefit and is wise enough to figure out that if He brings people who hate Him into Heaven that Heaven will be turned into Hell in a relatively short period of time and so He has decided in His sovereign judgment to limit salvation to those who choose to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and believe that God raised Him from the dead.


Now, Jerry, up til now, you've been on my ignore list for what seems like forever. Please don't immediately prove that I've made a mistake by even acknowledging your existence. Please just respond to the opening post the way you'd want anyone else to respond to an opening post you had written.

Clete

 

[Clete]

:think:

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Galatians 1:15 He who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace

Luke 1:15 For he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.

1Ki 13:2 And the man cried against the altar by the word of the LORD and said, “O altar, altar, thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, a son shall be born to the house of David, Josiah by name, and he shall sacrifice on you the priests of the high places who make offerings on you, and human bones shall be burned on you.’”

Lon,
Are you attempting to prove that the bible is false?

Or are you conceding the veracity of the argument and want clarification as to what the above verses mean? None of them mean that God has infallible foreknowledge. None of them even imply that He does. You're reading your doctrine into the verses if you think otherwise.

But it could be either one since you didn't bother to tell anyone why you posted these verses. If my argument is valid and the bible does in fact teach that God has infallible foreknowledge AND it teaches that God is just, then the bible is a self-contradictory fairy tale.

The bottom line is that if my argument is valid then either bible does not teach exhaustive divine foreknowledge or the bible is false.

Clete

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The passage you reference has to do with a group of people. All such passages dealing with God's foreknowledge always have to do with groups with only the rarest of exceptions and even those aren't talking about the sort of foreknowledge being discussed in my argument.

Are you not aware that believers are baptized into the Body of Christ individually? According to you there must be a time when the whole group of believers living in the present dispensation are baptized into christ Jesus. But that is IMPOSSIBLE because in the first century there were believers baptized into the Body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Now, at this time, there are believers being baptized into the Body of Christ and it is obvious that they are not being baptized into the Body of Christ at the same time when the first century believers were baptized into the Body.In the following passage we read that the LORD"hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world":

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:3-4).​

The words "ín him" are referring to the Body of Christ and it is individuals who are baptized into Him, into the Body of Christ.

You have provided nothing which makes any sense why anyone should believe that believers are baptized into the Body of Christ in one big group. Now is your opportunity, Clete.

 

[Right Divider]

Are you not aware that believers are baptized into the Body of Christ individually?

Always insulting your readers intelligence. Nice.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Always insulting your readers intelligence. Nice.

I wasn't addressing my readers. I was only addressing Clete.

 

[Right Divider]

I wasn't addressing my readers. I was only addressing Clete.

Insulting Clete then? Very nice.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Insulting Clete then? Very nice.

Don't mention "nice" to me since you accused me of being a liar many times.

 

[Right Divider]

Don't mention "nice" to me since you accused me of being a liar many times.

You're very insulting to your supposed brothers in Christ. And you do frequently lie about what I say.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You're very insulting to your supposed brothers in Christ. And you do frequently lie about what I say.

You are an insult to Christianity and I never lied about anything which you said. You are so confused about what is revealed in the Scriptures that you say that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite the fact that the Savior Himself said the following to them:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

Your teaching makes the Lord Jesus a liar but you don't care.

 

[Right Divider]

You are an insult to Christianity and I never lied about anything which you said. You are so confused about what is revealed in the Scriptures that you say that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite the fact that the Savior Himself said the following to them:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

Your teaching makes the Lord Jesus a liar but you don't care.

AGAIN YOU LIE...

Please QUOTE me saying that eternal life required works or law keeping.

Talk about an insult to Christianity.... that's YOU ... Mr. Hypocrite.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

AGAIN YOU LIE...

Please QUOTE me saying that eternal life required works or law keeping.

Talk about an insult to Christianity.... that's YOU ... Mr. Hypocrite.

Do you deny that you said the following when we were discussing what was required for salvation for the Jews who lived under the law?:

Jesus said "Keep My commandments." That means keeping the law was a requirement.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

To resume with the subject of this thread:

If God exists in "time" then His foreknowledge must be unchanging. That knowledge is settled and whatever takes place in history must come into being exactly as God foreknew it would happen. That is the "settled view of history."

However, God exists outside of time then with Him there is no "before" or "after." William Ames, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said the following:

"There is properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after."​

John Wesley, who along with his brother Charles founded the Methodist movement, wrote the following about this subject:

"The sum of all is this: the almighty, all-wise God sees and knows, from everlasting to everlasting, all that is, that was, and that is to come, through one eternal now. With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present. He has, therefore, if we speak according to the truth of things, no foreknowledge, no afterknowledge. This would be ill consistent with the Apostle's words, 'With him is no variableness or shadow of turning;' and with the account he gives of himself by the Prophet, 'I the Lord change not.' Yet when he speaks to us, knowing whereof we are made, knowing the scantiness of our understanding, he lets himself down to our capacity, and speaks of himself after the manner of men. Thus, in condescension to our weakness, he speaks of his own purpose, counsel, plan, foreknowledge. Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally? To one who was so gross in his conceptions might he not say, 'Thinkest thou I am such an one as thyself' Not so: As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than thy ways. I know, decree, work, in such a manner as it is not possible for thee to conceive: But to give thee some faint, glimmering knowledge of my ways, I use the language of men, and suit myself to thy apprehensions in this thy infant state of existence."​

The LORD exists in "one eternal now," meaning that with Him there is neither past nor future so when the Scriptures refer to His "foreknowledge" what is said is not to be taken in a "literal" manner. Instead, what is being employed is the "figurative" language spoken of here:

"Anthropopatheia ; or, Condescension...Ascribing to God what belongs to human and rational beings, irrational creatures, or inanimate things."​

An understanding of these things is the first step to understanding that the future is open.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Because the LORD exists in a "timeless" state, a state of which we have no understanding, He communicates with us in a way that we can understand. He reveals Himself as existing in time so that, as Wesley said, God "speaks of himself after the manner of men."

This idea that all things are "simultaneous" with God was also expressed by Calvinist Loraine Boettner:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance."​

From this we can understand that God, with one glance, saw who believed and who didn't believe throughout history and in the future history of mankind. In the temporal sphere or from mankind's perspective, God does not know when a person believes until that person actually believes. But it can be said that God chooses believers for salvation from the beginning because He exists in the "eternal now" or the "ever present now." Therefore, figurative language is being used in the following verse and what is said is not to be understood in a "literal" sense:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Pet.1:2; NIV).​

Did the Body of Christ Exist Before the Foundation of the World?

Let us look at this verse again:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:3-4; KJV).​

Did the Body of Christ even exist "before the foundation of the world?" Of course not and we know that it didn't because Paul describes the Body as a "New Man":

"having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity" (Eph.2:15-16).​

"and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all" (Col.3:10-11; NKJV).​

It is inconceivable that Paul would described the Body of Christ as a "new man" if the Body of Christ existed before the foundation of the world.

Also, let is look at the following verse again:

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim.1:9; KJV).​

According to the Scriptures no one is saved until they believe God:

"By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith" (Heb.11:7).​

"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" (Ro.4:3).

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" (Ro.1:16).​

Since men did not even exist before the world began then it is certain that from mankind's perspective that no one was saved in "time" before the world began. Again, we can understand that with one glance God saw who believed and who didn't believe throughout history and in the future history of mankind. In the temporal sphere or from mankind's perspective, God does not know when a person believes until that person actually believes. However, as Wesley said, "With him nothing is either past or future,all things equally present." It can be said that God chooses believers for salvation from the beginning of time because He exists in the "eternal now" or in the "ever present now."

That means that the future is "open" for all people to be saved because all people have the ability to believe the gospel which brings salvation. In other words, from mankind's perspective in "time" it was not determined that before the world began that some would be saved and others lost.