ECT Mary: Mother of God

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Mary "bore" God (Jesus) in her womb so she is the God Bearer, Mother of God.

When the Lord Jesus was born of Mary He was not in the form of God but instead was in the form of man:

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil.2:6-8).​
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
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When the Lord Jesus was born of Mary He was not in the form of God but instead was in the form of man:

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil.2:6-8).​

:thumb:
 

God's Truth

New member
Another ignorant lie from you. What is wrong with you anyway.

The Council of Ephesus in AD 431, I say again, the Council of Ephesus in AD 431, decreed that Mary is the Theotokos because her son Jesus is both God and man: one divine person with two natures (divine and human).

You give information from some men 431 years after Jesus?

Let's talk about what the Bible says.

The title of Mother of God (Greek: Μήτηρ (του) Θεοῦ) or God Bearer, is most often used in English, largely due to the lack of a satisfactory equivalent of the Greek τόκος. Because of that the title is often left untranslated, and she is called "Theotokos".

Mary "bore" God (Jesus) in her womb so she is the God Bearer, Mother of God.

This is the belief of almost all Christians, Catholic and Orthodox. Only a tiny fringe reject it.

That's you, Tiny Fringe.

By the way Dopey, that's what a real response looks like, not your stupid two words with a cartoon.

Nowhere anywhere are we shown from God that Mary is to be positioned highly because she is Jesus' mother.

In fact, Jesus rebukes the thought of it.

Catholic Popes teach Catholics to elevate Mary. There is no such command in the Bible, nor are there any examples of such an act in the Bible. Mary would not want to be exalted in such a way. In fact, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” Jesus replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” See Luke 11:27-28. Does that sound like Jesus wanted Mary exalted to the level that the Catholic Church has exalted her? No. Someone told Jesus, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” Jesus replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.” See Luke 8:20-21. Does it sound like Jesus wants us to elevate and worship his mother? No!

Jesus did not come to this world to be a husband, or a father, or a son to Mary. Jesus came to this world to save us. When Jesus was on the cross, Jesus called Mary “woman,” and gave her to one of his disciples.

John 19:26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,”
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
You give information from some men 431 years after Jesus?
Let's talk about what the Bible says.

Those men are 1,600 years closer to Jesus than you or me are. And I would remind you that those same men decided which books went into the Bible in the first place not long before that. Why are you going to trust the Bible, when its canon was arrived at by the same process as these decisions were arrived at.

I would rather hear what the men who compiled the Bible have to say about what it says.
 
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God's Truth

New member
Those men are 1,600 years closer to Jesus than you or me are.

No such thing as having more knowledge about because you were closer in years.

And I would remind you that those same men decided which books went into the Bible in the first place not long before that.
The use of the letters and books being used from the beginning is what determined what would go into the Bible.

Why are you going to trust the Bible, when its canon was arrived at by the same process as these decisions were arrived at.

It isn't the same process.

How can you even say you trust the Bible so much if your denomination has teachings from your popes that aren't in the Bible?
I would rather here what the men who compiled the Bible have to say about what it says.

How about do what Jesus says?
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
How about do what Jesus says?

I do.

You know, you went through a whole lot of trouble in another thread to defend the Trinity and the fact that Jesus is GOD.

Do you not know that in naming Mary "Theotokos:" (God Bearer) the purpose of the Council was to defend that very thing, that Jesus is God? By namimg Mary Mother of God we reaffirm that Jesus is indeed God. You are fighting against yourself in this thread because you are blinded by knee-jerk anti-Catholicism.

Read:

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh” (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the “Nestorian” church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.

Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.

The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following passages witness to their lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary.


Go to https://www.catholic.com/tract/mary-mother-of-god
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
What does the Orthodox Church say: https://orthodoxwiki.org/Theotokos

The Virgin Mary is the Theotokos, the mother of Jesus Christ, the Son and Word of God. She conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. She was cared for by her betrothed husband, Joseph, who took the child and his mother into his home as his own. One very strong tradition in the Orthodox Church holds that the birth of Jesus was also miraculous and left Mary's virginity intact as a sign; it is also the tradition of the Church that Joseph and Mary did not have relations after the birth of Jesus. She is also called Panagia, the "All-Holy," indicating her closeness to God in her obedience.

The title Theotokos (in Greek, Θεοτόκος) is a Greek word that means "God-bearer" or "Birth-giver to God."
 

God's Truth

New member
That is all anyone needs to do. Jesus says he will save you if you do what he says.

You know, you went through a whole lot of trouble in another thread to defend the Trinity and the fact that Jesus is GOD.

Jesus is God, but I am not a trinitarian. There are three, but the three are one and the same, not different and separate, as the trinity doctrine says.


Do you not know that in naming Mary "Theotokos:" (God Bearer) the purpose of the Council was to defend that very thing, that Jesus is God? By namimg Mary Mother of God we reaffirm that Jesus is indeed God. You are fighting against yourself in this thread because you are blinded by knee-jerk anti-Catholicism.

Read:

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh” (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.
We should not say Mary is the mother of God, but rather that she is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus say all who obey him are his mother, sister, and brother.

Jesus made sure that we do not exalt Mary, but the Catholics do. They exalt her by making many prayers to her, and they bow to her image, and even given her the name co redeemer and Mediatrix.

To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature.

I want to point out that I am not a Fundamentalist.
Mary is the mother of Jesus as to his earthly side.

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation.

Only God can give a spirit to a conceived human. Humans don't make spirits. The Bible says that God is the Father of everyone's spirit.

It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the “Nestorian” church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.

Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.

The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following passages witness to their lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary.

Saying such things about Mary is against what Jesus says.

With the kind of reasoning the Catholics do about Mary, it leads to more and more false doctrines; for instance, the Catholics claim that Mary herself was from immaculate conception. The Bibles says nothing even close to that.
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
We should not say Mary is the mother of God, but rather that she is the mother of Jesus.

Unfortunately that introduces error. It creates a duality in Jesus.

Jesus has two natures, divine and human, and they are perfectly joined in one person. It is impossible for Mary to give birth to only part of Jesus.

The Council declaration explains all this.
 

God's Truth

New member
Unfortunately that introduces error. It creates a duality in Jesus.

Jesus has two natures, divine and human, and they are perfectly joined in one person. It is impossible for Mary to give birth to only part of Jesus.

The Council declaration explains all this.

Jesus says all who obey are his mother---his family, his friends.

Catholics call Mary Mediatrix and Co Redeemer, and they pray to her for our sins and our souls.

They say she was conceived by Immaculate Conception.

Those things are not true.
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
Jesus says all who obey are his mother---his family, his friends.

Catholics call Mary Mediatrix and Co Redeemer, and they pray to her for our sins and our souls.

They say she was conceived by Immaculate Conception.

Those are all different topics. Plus you have them all twisted up. Much of the reason you don't like Catholicism I see is because you misunderstand what we teach.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Much of the reason you don't like Catholicism I see is because you misunderstand what we teach.

I don't like the teaching of the church at Rome because they refuse to believe the Lord Jesus' words here:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​


In fact, the teaching of Rome directly contradicts His words.
 

God's Truth

New member
Those are all different topics. Plus you have them all twisted up. Much of the reason you don't like Catholicism I see is because you misunderstand what we teach.

Just because you say so? Those things I said are right.

Do the Catholics say Mary was from immaculate conception?

Do the Catholics say Mary is Co Redeemer and Mediatrix?

Do the Catholics pray to Mary?

You know I am right. If it bothers you get out of it.
 

God's Truth

New member
I don't like the teaching of the church at Rome because they refuse to believe the Lord Jesus' words here:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​


In fact, the teaching of Rome directly contradicts His words.

Think about it more, JS. What is it we have to believe?
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
Those are all different topics. Plus you have them all twisted up. Much of the reason you don't like Catholicism I see is because you misunderstand what we teach.
Just because you say so? Those things I said are right.

No, you are not right. I am sorry. You seem to have built a life of beliefs on things that are simply not true. I am sorry for that. You need to show some humility and admit that you can be wrong.

You said:"Catholics call Mary Mediatrix and Co Redeemer, and they pray to her for our sins and our souls."

FACT: Yes Catholics call Mary Mediatrix and Co Redeemer, because we all are Mediators and Co Redeemers. Every time I pray for someone I assist Jesus in mediation, and every time I bring the gospel to someone (not that I have a lot, but still) and they become a Christian then I have acted as a co redeemer, helping to redeem someone. We all have that calling.

But we do NOT ask Mary to forgive our sins. We ask her to pray for us just like we ask everybody to pray for us. That is the Christian thing to do.

You said: "They say she was conceived by Immaculate Conception."

FACT: Yes, that is true. I have a feeling that you do not know what that means though.

I quote from https://www.catholic.com/tract/immac...and-assumption :

The Immaculate Conception

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived “by the power of the Holy Spirit,” in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what “immaculate” means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.


Protestants’ Objections

Protestants’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her “spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

But what about Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. Sinning does not make one human.

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Protestants claim that the doctrine was “invented” at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it.

Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; see Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive: Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her.
 

God's Truth

New member
No, you are not right. I am sorry. You seem to have built a life of beliefs on things that are simply not true. I am sorry for that. You need to show some humility and admit that you can be wrong.
That is what you need to do. You are ashamed of your own Catholic beliefs then why stay a Catholic?
You said:"Catholics call Mary Mediatrix and Co Redeemer, and they pray to her for our sins and our souls."

FACT: Yes Catholics call Mary Mediatrix and Co Redeemer, because we all are Mediators and Co Redeemers. Every time I pray for someone I assist Jesus in mediation, and every time I bring the gospel to someone (not that I have a lot, but still) and they become a Christian then I have acted as a co redeemer, helping to redeem someone. We all have that calling.

You just said I was wrong about it. So you admit you lied about me?

But we do NOT ask Mary to forgive our sins. We ask her to pray for us just like we ask everybody to pray for us. That is the Christian thing to do.

Here are some Catholic prayers to Mary:


Sub tuum praesidium

We fly to Thy protection,
O Holy Mother of God;
Do; not despise our petitions
in our necessities,
but deliver us always
from all dangers,

O Glorious and Blessed Virgin. Amen.



Deliver us from all dangers? Do you think that is something we are to ask Mary to do? Are we supposed to ask Mary for protection?


Morning Consecration to Mary

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to thee.

And to show my devotion to thee,
I offer thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.

Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as thy property and possession.
Amen.


Do you think we are to offer ourselves to Mary, or Jesus?

Memorare

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary,
that never was it known that anyone,
who fled to your protection,
implored your help, or sought your intercession,
was left unaided.

Inspired by this confidence,
I fly to you, O Virgin of virgins my Mother.
To you do I come,
before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful.

O Mother of the Word incarnate,
despise not my petitions,
but in your clemency,
hear and answer me. Amen.




Jesus is the one who intercedes between God and man.
Don't you think we should be asking Jesus?

Prayer to the Blessed Virgin Mary To Obtain the Forgiveness of Our Sins

Behold, O Mother of God, at thy feet a miserable sinner, a slave of hell, who has recourse to thee and trusts in thee.

I do not deserve that thou shouldst even look at me; but I know that thou having seen thy Son die for the salvation of sinners. Hast the greatest desire to help them.

I hear all call the refuge of sinners, the hope of those who are in despair, and the help of the abandoned.

Thou art, then, my refuge, my hope and my help. Thou hast to save me by thy intercession.

Help me, for the love of Jesus Christ; extend thy hand to a miserable creature who has fallen, and recommends himself to thee.

I know that thy pleasure is to help a sinner to thy utmost; help me, therefore, now that thou canst do so.

By my sins I have lost divine grace, and with it my soul; I now place myself in thy hands.


Tell me what I must do to recover the favor of the Lord, and I will immediately do it. He sends me to thee that thou mayst help me; and will that I should have recourse to thy mercy, that not only the merits of thy Son, but also thy intercession may help me to save my soul.

To thee, then, I have recourse; do thou, who prayest for so many others, pray also to Jesus for me; tell him that thou desirest my salvation, and he will pardon me, and he will forgive me; show how thou canst enrich those who trust in thee.

Amen.



Do you really think we should pray to Mary and say those things?
 

God's Truth

New member
You said: "They say she was conceived by Immaculate Conception."

FACT: Yes, that is true. I have a feeling that you do not know what that means though.

Your feelings are lies about me. You said I was wrong about everything I said about the Catholic's teachings.
I quote from https://www.catholic.com/tract/immac...and-assumption :

The Immaculate Conception

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived “by the power of the Holy Spirit,” in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what “immaculate” means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

I know what it means.
It is a false teaching by Catholics.
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
I wish this guy was here to stick up for his threads. Anyway, I don't see that anyone has proven this wrong.


Mary: Mother of God

https://www.catholic.com/tract/mary-mother-of-god
Posted With Permission

Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension not only of what this particular title of Mary signifies but also of who Jesus was—and of what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine.

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses, because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus “was descended from David according to the flesh” (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh” (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the “Nestorian” church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.

Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.

The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following passages witness to their lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary.

Read the church fathers comments: https://www.catholic.com/tract/mary-mother-of-god
 
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