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  • Originally posted by Charity View Post
    Hopefully the rest of earths days wont be wasted arguing where God is Right Now!...God could be Up to the third day of creating a far biger an better earth? according to europe.
    Any sort of Beliving will not alter Facts .the race is on as if this Place will be owned by the discover...er.
    Man is a Pain Himself, an to the unverse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJMRlvgY2EM
    (As always I fail to get you point).

    Informative video, watched the first half but it just doesn't get to my head that a (moon - titan) of a (planet - Saturn) in Solar Group, can be as (planet - Earth).

    And it got nothing with Humans, God is able to make Creatures anywhere, Whether Aliens or just small microscopic cells somewhere trillion years away.

    As for "Where's God?", This is actually a very important philosophical (conflict) between monotheists, at least it is between Muslim Scholars.

    Because it gets a monotheist theology to the edge.
    in houses which Allah has ordered to be raised and that His name be mentioned therein; exalting Him within them in the morning and the evenings

    Comment


    • Originally posted by lifeisgood View Post
      Neither before and definitely not after.
      What is not created is surely The Creator (because Creator is one), and if "heavens" are not Created after, it is The Creator, and that means that, there are, two, not one, (The) creator(s). And there goes Monotheism.
      in houses which Allah has ordered to be raised and that His name be mentioned therein; exalting Him within them in the morning and the evenings

      Comment


      • This was your question:
        Originally posted by Mulla Sadra View Post
        I ask you, this "place" you are talking about, was it before or after God ?
        And I said that this place was neither before nor after. There was nothing created from where God was UNTIL He said “be” and it was. Remember, I keep repeating myself that this ‘place’ before creation was created is not a place as we humans think of such.

        Originally posted by Mulla Sadra View Post
        What is not created is surely The Creator (because Creator is one),
        What is not created is in the domain of The Creator but it is not The Creator. He will decide when it is created.

        Originally posted by Mulla Sadra View Post
        and if "heavens" are not Created after, it is The Creator,
        Heavens WERE created by the Creator AFTER The Creator said "be" and it was and heavens is not The Creator. Heavens is a creation.

        Originally posted by Mulla Sadra View Post
        and that means that, there are, two, not one, (The) creator(s). And there goes Monotheism.
        God is one!
        God is outside of His Creation!
        God created everything when He said “be” and it was.
        God created everything out of nothing!
        No man can come to God except through Christ. (Jn. 14:20)
        No man can come to Christ unless he comes through the Cross. (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:13–18)
        No man can come to the Cross without a denial of self. (Lk. 9:23–24)

        Comment


        • What's the need for God to be in a "place" ?

          Do you have something in the bible that oblige you to believe such belief, I know Christians who don't limit God to a place, are they bad Christians by doing that ?
          Last edited by Mulla Sadra; May 7th, 2013, 01:10 PM.
          in houses which Allah has ordered to be raised and that His name be mentioned therein; exalting Him within them in the morning and the evenings

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mulla Sadra View Post
            What's the need for God to be in a "place" ?

            Do you have something in the bible that oblige you to believe such belief, I know Christians who don't limit God to a place, are they bad Christians by doing that ?
            Mulla, there is no "need" for God to be in a place.

            I have ever implied that God has a "need" to be in a place.

            Do you think that we have a good enough vocabulary when talking about the splendor, the grandiosity, the awesomeness of God? I don't. There is not a big enough vocabulary to express God. Therefore, we use, forgive me, I use words that I have in my small vocabulary to express the grandiosity of God, which fails miserably.

            God is not limited to a place as we humans think of place.

            You are thinking from the human perspective. There is no word in my vocabulary to explain to you what I am trying to explain, and I have no amount of explanation to make you understand what I am saying. Only God can make you understand that I am not talking about a 'place' as we, humans, think of place.
            No man can come to God except through Christ. (Jn. 14:20)
            No man can come to Christ unless he comes through the Cross. (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:13–18)
            No man can come to the Cross without a denial of self. (Lk. 9:23–24)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by lifeisgood View Post
              Mulla, there is no "need" for God to be in a place.

              I have ever implied that God has a "need" to be in a place.

              Do you think that we have a good enough vocabulary when talking about the splendor, the grandiosity, the awesomeness of God? I don't. There is not a big enough vocabulary to express God. Therefore, we use, forgive me, I use words that I have in my small vocabulary to express the grandiosity of God, which fails miserably.

              God is not limited to a place as we humans think of place.

              You are thinking from the human perspective. There is no word in my vocabulary to explain to you what I am trying to explain, and I have no amount of explanation to make you understand what I am saying. Only God can make you understand that I am not talking about a 'place' as we, humans, think of place.
              Friend, this is non-sense.

              (Yes, sometimes Vocabulary do fail when talking to God, but not in this situation).

              But, "PLACE" is nothing to be given.

              As Most philosophers respectively define a "Place" : It's what BODY goes to or from , and can stay in, and that no two BODIES can have it in one time.

              If this is not the place you are talking about, then God's not in a place.

              (And it's a feature for Bodies, because bodies need a place, which makes them unable to be God, because God is in no need for whatsoever).

              ------------------

              You can conclude the subject, but don't come and tell me it is not what we think, if it is not what we think, then it is not it.

              Our theology is : God is OUT of Place and time.
              in houses which Allah has ordered to be raised and that His name be mentioned therein; exalting Him within them in the morning and the evenings

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mulla Sadra View Post
                Friend, this is non-sense.

                (Yes, sometimes Vocabulary do fail when talking to God, but not in this situation).

                But, "PLACE" is nothing to be given.

                As Most philosophers respectively define a "Place" : It's what BODY goes to or from , and can stay in, and that no two BODIES can have it in one time.

                If this is not the place you are talking about, then God's not in a place.

                (And it's a feature for Bodies, because bodies need a place, which makes them unable to be God, because God is in no need for whatsoever).

                ------------------

                You can conclude the subject, but don't come and tell me it is not what we think, if it is not what we think, then it is not it.

                Our theology is : God is OUT of Place and time.
                I am placing this because it is not that big. If you are interested you can go here to see what people are saying.

                Can God live outside of time?

                It is often argued that something can exist outside of time. In a way, this is true, but the thing that exists outside of time must be completely static. There is no ability for something to change state outside of time since such a change would create time all by itself.

                Time is the measure of distance between events. Without events, there is no time, and without time there are no events. This is simply the way it is and there is no way around it. It doesn’t matter what dimension or universe you live in, if there are things happening, there is time.

                Imagine a cube that had the ability to change from a cube to a sphere and back. This cube lasts eternally, was never created, and is said to live outside of time and space. Forgetting for a moment that you can’t have a cube or a sphere outside of space since dimensions require dimensions, notice that the cube never changes to a sphere. The reason for this is the fact that it would be an event for the cube to change into a sphere, and that event would create a time line that would go infinitely forward and backward. A single change in state, no matter how small, or how short in duration, creates time, and there is no way around it.

                Without time, you can do nothing. You can’t think, you can’t create, you can’t destroy, you can’t get happy, you can’t get sad. There would be no speaking things into existence. There would be no thinking things into existence. There would be nothing at all except existing statically. This means that there is no way that anything lives outside of time that can do things.

                Now, can there be multiple time lines? Of course there can. In fact, in a sense, we are experiencing 4 different time lines right now. Imagine a point expanding across one dimensional space in a line. This is the first dimensional time line. Now imagine a one dimensional line segment expanding perpendicular to itself to form a square. This would be the 2 dimensional time line. Imagine a square moving up in order to form a cube, this would be a 3 dimensional time line. These can all be used as time lines.

                A first dimensional being could never see itself at all since a point technically takes up no space, but its movement through one dimensional space could be considered time. A 2 dimensional being could not see itself either since a line technically has no thickness, but imagine that it could, it would only be able to see one dimension of itself. It would look like line segments getting larger and smaller while moving through the second dimension. A three dimensional being could only see two dimensions of itself, and we, as fourth dimensional beings can only see 3 dimensions of ourselves, and the changes we see are merely us moving through the fourth dimension.

                It is difficult to imagine, but if there were a fifth dimensional being, we would be able to see a static version of the entire fourth dimension. We may not see movement in the 4th dimensional entity since it would exist all at the same time, but if it made any changes to 4 dimensional things it would necessarily have to move across the fifth dimension. Now, knowing that we are moving through the fourth dimension, that means there are events happening not only in our dimension, but in all higher dimensions as well. This means that anything that has the ability to interact with this dimension, is also changing and is connected inextricably with our time line.

                Now, not only have we shown how a thing can’t do anything if it has no time, but a situation where it can’t interact with our dimension without time or space. If it is outside our space, it can’t interact with it. I don’t care if it’s merely done with thought. The mere fact that we would be in the same space as something else means it somehow experiences our time. Suddenly, the outside of time and space thing sounds rather silly.

                Will this deter any believer from asserting that their God lives somehow outside of time and space? Not on your life. What it will do is give you the ability to understand why this is just a silly claim. People that believe in God must create these impossible things in order for their idea to be true, but it is merely an illustration of how little they know about what they are saying when they make such claims.

                ===

                I'll leave this subject for now. And I do apologize to you for causing any distress. It was not my intention.
                No man can come to God except through Christ. (Jn. 14:20)
                No man can come to Christ unless he comes through the Cross. (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:13–18)
                No man can come to the Cross without a denial of self. (Lk. 9:23–24)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lifeisgood View Post
                  I am placing this because it is not that big. If you are interested you can go here to see what people are saying.

                  Can God live outside of time?

                  It is often argued that something can exist outside of time. In a way, this is true, but the thing that exists outside of time must be completely static. There is no ability for something to change state outside of time since such a change would create time all by itself.

                  Time is the measure of distance between events. Without events, there is no time, and without time there are no events. This is simply the way it is and there is no way around it. It doesn’t matter what dimension or universe you live in, if there are things happening, there is time.

                  Imagine a cube that had the ability to change from a cube to a sphere and back. This cube lasts eternally, was never created, and is said to live outside of time and space. Forgetting for a moment that you can’t have a cube or a sphere outside of space since dimensions require dimensions, notice that the cube never changes to a sphere. The reason for this is the fact that it would be an event for the cube to change into a sphere, and that event would create a time line that would go infinitely forward and backward. A single change in state, no matter how small, or how short in duration, creates time, and there is no way around it.

                  Without time, you can do nothing. You can’t think, you can’t create, you can’t destroy, you can’t get happy, you can’t get sad. There would be no speaking things into existence. There would be no thinking things into existence. There would be nothing at all except existing statically. This means that there is no way that anything lives outside of time that can do things.

                  Now, can there be multiple time lines? Of course there can. In fact, in a sense, we are experiencing 4 different time lines right now. Imagine a point expanding across one dimensional space in a line. This is the first dimensional time line. Now imagine a one dimensional line segment expanding perpendicular to itself to form a square. This would be the 2 dimensional time line. Imagine a square moving up in order to form a cube, this would be a 3 dimensional time line. These can all be used as time lines.

                  A first dimensional being could never see itself at all since a point technically takes up no space, but its movement through one dimensional space could be considered time. A 2 dimensional being could not see itself either since a line technically has no thickness, but imagine that it could, it would only be able to see one dimension of itself. It would look like line segments getting larger and smaller while moving through the second dimension. A three dimensional being could only see two dimensions of itself, and we, as fourth dimensional beings can only see 3 dimensions of ourselves, and the changes we see are merely us moving through the fourth dimension.

                  It is difficult to imagine, but if there were a fifth dimensional being, we would be able to see a static version of the entire fourth dimension. We may not see movement in the 4th dimensional entity since it would exist all at the same time, but if it made any changes to 4 dimensional things it would necessarily have to move across the fifth dimension. Now, knowing that we are moving through the fourth dimension, that means there are events happening not only in our dimension, but in all higher dimensions as well. This means that anything that has the ability to interact with this dimension, is also changing and is connected inextricably with our time line.

                  Now, not only have we shown how a thing can’t do anything if it has no time, but a situation where it can’t interact with our dimension without time or space. If it is outside our space, it can’t interact with it. I don’t care if it’s merely done with thought. The mere fact that we would be in the same space as something else means it somehow experiences our time. Suddenly, the outside of time and space thing sounds rather silly.

                  Will this deter any believer from asserting that their God lives somehow outside of time and space? Not on your life. What it will do is give you the ability to understand why this is just a silly claim. People that believe in God must create these impossible things in order for their idea to be true, but it is merely an illustration of how little they know about what they are saying when they make such claims.

                  ===

                  I'll leave this subject for now. And I do apologize to you for causing any distress. It was not my intention.
                  If God doesn't need water, does that mean God will die of deprivation

                  If God doesn't need place, does that mean God is static.

                  And you didn't make me whatsoever distress, I feel more close to you as a person after this debate.

                  You see, now we talked about God, as in God, that you and I share, and we didn't make any kind (somehow) of (deaf) answers.

                  I hope that this subject, if not gained anything but, have been a way to show you the common ground we share. which is Monotheism.

                  I for one, when I was talking, you reminded me of some the Salafist (Wahabis) we have in Islam, who say :

                  God has a hand, but not like our hands.
                  God has an eye, but not like our eyes.
                  God has a throne, but not like our thrones.

                  Yes, their goal when they say this is clean, I can tell you that, but wouldn't it be more accurate if they said :

                  God is able, with no hands.
                  God is seeing, with no eyes.
                  God is the King of everything, with no material throne.

                  I hope you see what I mean.

                  ----------------------------

                  Back to the subject, which is Hell and Heaven, I conclude my statement as :

                  God have created us as governors of this earth, and this government we have on everything, we are going to be judged according to it. with the most precise details, each one sin, and each one good deed, you will see it thereafter.

                  But there's a wider circle, that we are going to be judged in too, we can be in this side of the circle or in the other according to it.

                  The meaning of one Hadeeth goes, if you say there's One God then you are in heaven, if you believe (what you believe, not what I think you believe) there's not One God, then you are in hell.

                  How much you will go up or down is according to the first factor.

                  I made another summary of the same idea in one of the early pages as an answer to (Ezekel).

                  Don't feel inconvenienced to ask anything else.
                  in houses which Allah has ordered to be raised and that His name be mentioned therein; exalting Him within them in the morning and the evenings

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mulla Sadra View Post
                    Back to the subject, which is Hell and Heaven, I conclude my statement as :

                    God have created us as governors of this earth, and this government we have on everything, we are going to be judged according to it. with the most precise details, each one sin, and each one good deed, you will see it thereafter.
                    See, here is where true Christianity and Islam differ.

                    My Holy Book says that God is only pleased with His Unique Son Jesus Christ, the GOD-Man. He is pleased with NO other.

                    Jesus had to be a man to mediate for man.
                    AND
                    Jesus had to be God to mediate for God.

                    No man was found worthy and that is the reason that God had to come as a man and become the GOD-Man; God with us. Jesus is the Word (who was God) and dwelt among us. It was God who was manifest in the flesh.

                    Originally posted by Mulla Sadra View Post
                    But there's a wider circle, that we are going to be judged in too, we can be in this side of the circle or in the other according to it.
                    A circle, for me, does not provide me a solution for my dilemma, separation from a Holy God. The Cross is the break in the circle that provides the only way to get back to God.

                    Originally posted by Mulla Sadra View Post
                    The meaning of one Hadeeth goes, if you say there's One God then you are in heaven, if you believe (what you believe, not what I think you believe) there's not One God, then you are in hell.
                    For Christians the only way to get to the One God and go to be with Him eternally is that the object of our faith has to be in Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross. What He did, you ask? He paid the debt that mankind because of Adam’s rejection of God’s instructions, owed God, and there is no way that man could/can pay that debt to God, no matter how much man/woman try. However, because God loves His greatest creation, i.e., man, God provided a way for man to get back to Him. And God will not accept any other way, but the way He provided, Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross.

                    In the acceptance of that work rests eternal life with God.

                    In the rejection of that work rests the eternal separation from God.

                    My Holy Book provides me no other way.

                    Originally posted by Mulla Sadra View Post
                    How much you will go up or down is according to the first factor.
                    At the feet of the Cross there is no going up or down, all who come to the feet of the Cross (rich, poor, tall, short, man, women, boys or girls) all are equal in the sight of God, because God only looks at His Son (the sacrifice). There is no other way. The lamb is always inspected minutely, not the offerer of the sacrifice. Jesus was the perfect lamb, minutely inspected, and found perfect that God accepted to pay the debt that mankind owed Him.

                    Originally posted by Mulla Sadra View Post
                    Don't feel inconvenienced to ask anything else.
                    Thank you, I will.
                    No man can come to God except through Christ. (Jn. 14:20)
                    No man can come to Christ unless he comes through the Cross. (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:13–18)
                    No man can come to the Cross without a denial of self. (Lk. 9:23–24)

                    Comment


                    • Did you know that the link you quoted is for an Atheist website
                      in houses which Allah has ordered to be raised and that His name be mentioned therein; exalting Him within them in the morning and the evenings

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mulla Sadra View Post
                        Did you know that the link you quoted is for an Atheist website
                        Yes, I know. I read about everything, including things written by atheists.
                        No man can come to God except through Christ. (Jn. 14:20)
                        No man can come to Christ unless he comes through the Cross. (Jn. 3:16; Eph. 2:13–18)
                        No man can come to the Cross without a denial of self. (Lk. 9:23–24)

                        Comment

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