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  • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I cannot believe that when the LORD told Hezekiah that he would die and then changed his mind had anything to do with Him seeing Hezekiah's future. I believe that the LORD was aware that he had a fatal disease and was going to die in short order no matter what. It was Zecekiah's plea for a longer life which lead to the Lord to heal him so that he lived another fifteen years.

    And of course the LORD's change of mind can only be understood in a "figurative" sense, the figure of speech known as "Anthropopathy--Ascribing to God what belongs to human & rational beings."

    Can you see the possibilty of things happening that way?

    Thanks!
    You're contradicting yourself. What is a fatal disease? One that will kill you IN THE FUTURE.

    Also, an anthropopathism is an ascribed FEELING or EMOTION. What feeling is being ascribed to God in these passages?

    Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Derf View Post
      You're contradicting yourself. What is a fatal disease? One that will kill you IN THE FUTURE.
      That has nothing to do with seeing the future and then as a result of that knowledge changing the present. Instead, by looking at Hezekiah in his present condition the LORD knew that it was fatal. Do you deny that the LORD can know the health of those He created in their present condition and does not have to know anything about their future in order to know that someone will die in short order?

      Originally posted by Derf View Post
      Also, an anthropopathism is an ascribed FEELING or EMOTION. What feeling is being ascribed to God in these passages?
      That figurative sense also includes the LORD changing His mind as men do.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
        That has nothing to do with seeing the future and then as a result of that knowledge changing the present. Instead, by looking at Hezekiah in his present condition the LORD knew that it was fatal. Do you deny that the LORD can know the health of those He created in their present condition and does not have to know anything about their future in order to know that someone will die in short order?
        Of course he could tell what kind of disease it was. And of course he could also tell what the future would be in your view. But you can't tell the difference. It's your systematic that is telling you which to believe.
        That figurative sense also includes the LORD changing His mind as men do.
        That's not a feeling or emotion. It's a copout to call it such. And ascribing a changing of God's mind to God when he didn't really change His mind seems to be ascribing a lie to God's word.


        Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Derf View Post
          Of course he could tell what kind of disease it was. And of course he could also tell what the future would be in your view. But you can't tell the difference. It's your systematic that is telling you which to believe.
          The LORD knew that Hezekiah's malady was fatal and He also knew that his death was imminent if He didn't intervene. There is nothing which even hints that the LORD's action in regard to Hezekiah was shaped or formed by something which He saw in the future.

          Originally posted by Derf View Post
          That's not a feeling or emotion. It's a copout to call it such. And ascribing a changing of God's mind to God when he didn't really change His mind seems to be ascribing a lie to God's word.
          Do you really think that the LORD did not know beforehand if Abraham actually had faith or not until he took a knife to kill Isaac?:
          "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen.22:12).

          If we are to take this literally then we must believe that before Abraham took the knife the LORD did not know whether or not he feared Him (or had reverence for Him). And then He had a change of mind about that when He saw Abraham actually take a knife to kill Isaac.

          But that idea is ridiculous. The LORD know the heart of man and does not need to see anything from man in order to know whether or not a person fears Him:

          "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"
          (1 Sam.16:7).

          So it is evident that the LORD knew that Abraham feared Him before He saw Abraham take the knife. His mind did not really change about this when He saw him take the knife. Besides that, earlier the LORD knew that Abraham feared Him (Gen.15:6).

          So are you going to say that the Lord was telling a fib when He said those things to Abraham?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
            The LORD knew that Hezekiah's malady was fatal and He also knew that his death was imminent if He didn't intervene. There is nothing which even hints that the LORD's action in regard to Hezekiah was shaped or formed by something which He saw in the future.
            Good! so you agree with me that God didn't look into the future for either the first prophecy (he would die of the disease) or the second one (he would survive the disease). That's great. Then if God wasn't going to prolong Hezekiah's life in the first case, but He was going to in the second case, then He must have changed His mind between the two.

            So your following diatribe about Abraham is unnecessary.

            Do you really think that the LORD did not know beforehand if Abraham actually had faith or not until he took a knife to kill Isaac?:
            "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen.22:12).

            If we are to take this literally then we must believe that before Abraham took the knife the LORD did not know whether or not he feared Him (or had reverence for Him). And then He had a change of mind about that when He saw Abraham actually take a knife to kill Isaac.

            But that idea is ridiculous. The LORD know the heart of man and does not need to see anything from man in order to know whether or not a person fears Him:

            "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"
            (1 Sam.16:7).

            So it is evident that the LORD knew that Abraham feared Him before He saw Abraham take the knife. His mind did not really change about this when He saw him take the knife. Besides that, earlier the LORD knew that Abraham feared Him (Gen.15:6).

            So are you going to say that the Lord was telling a fib when He said those things to Abraham?

            Comment


            • This is a bad idea on my part, but I wanted to respond to your Abraham scenario after all. I call it a bad idea, because I think it detracts from the progress we might be making on the Hezekiah scenario. My preference of the two is to continue with the Hezekiah scenario. I think it handles both the knowledge of the future issue and the change of mind issue better than the Abraham one.

              The biggest thing about the Abraham scenario is that it doesn't purport to have a change of God's mind in it at all. I think it is clear that God told Abraham to sacrifice with his son with the intention of saving Isaac. Abraham thought so (Heb 11:19). Think through the two options:
              1. Abraham agrees to sacrifice Isaac, and God intervenes at the last second and stays Abraham's hand.
              2. Abraham does not agree to sacrifice Isaac.

              In both cases Isaac's life is spared. The more serious one (for Isaac) is the one recorded in scripture. Therefore, if God was going to spare Isaac's life in either case, there's no change of mind issue to deal with.

              But you've also brought up the idea that God didn't need Abraham to go through the motions of sacrificing Isaac to know whether he loved God more than Isaac, and because of that mindset, the scriptures don't really mean what they say--I think you've let your systematic dictate your understanding of the scripture. I'll say more below.

              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
              Do you really think that the LORD did not know beforehand if Abraham actually had faith or not until he took a knife to kill Isaac?:
              "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen.22:12).

              If we are to take this literally then we must believe that before Abraham took the knife the LORD did not know whether or not he feared Him (or had reverence for Him).
              If we refuse to take it literally, we run the risk of losing the meaning of the passage. What do we know about Abraham? We know that he left his family and home to go to a land that God "would show him". This is an act of great faith. But Abraham also showed lack of faith in a number of areas. He lied twice about Sarah being just his sister. He took Hagar to wife at Sarah's behest. He laughed at God's promise to give him a son by Sarah and instead requested that God fulfill His promise in Ishmael--Gen 17:17-18. And apparently he was so protective of Isaac that he waited until he was 40 years old, and his mother had died, to find a wife for him, when others in his ancestral family (before Terah, anyway) had married younger. (Isaac and Rebekah did the same for Jacob, waiting until he was well past 50, according to most sources.)
              And then He had a change of mind about that when He saw Abraham actually take a knife to kill Isaac.
              No change of mind, as detailed above.
              But that idea is ridiculous. The LORD know the heart of man and does not need to see anything from man in order to know whether or not a person fears Him:

              "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"
              (1 Sam.16:7).
              This was not a commentary on David, but a commentary on Eliab. God knew Eliab would not be a good king. For one thing he was a jealous man (see 1 Sam 17:28) and somewhat cowardly. But David had trusted in God to the extent that he had already killed a lion by hand (1 Sam 17:35) and was already known to be mighty, valiant, a man of war, and prudent in matters (1 Sam 16:18--surely these characteristics were not recently developed, were they?). God knew something of David's heart by how he acted--and others could see those things in him, too. Eliab was just a pretty face, and God knew that, probably by his actions, words and thoughts, which come from the heart. I'm not trying to say God can't look at our hearts (whatever that means), but it seems like He also reads our thoughts and sees our actions and makes judgments about us based on those. So faith without works is dead--it's not a real faith if we don't put it into practice in some way. Maybe God likes to see us put our faith into practice to REALLY know if we believe.
              So it is evident that the LORD knew that Abraham feared Him before He saw Abraham take the knife. His mind did not really change about this when He saw him take the knife. Besides that, earlier the LORD knew that Abraham feared Him (Gen.15:6).

              So are you going to say that the Lord was telling a fib when He said those things to Abraham?
              Where's the fib? God wasn't fibbing when He told Abraham to kill Isaac, and He wasn't fibbing when He told Abraham not to kill Isaac. Both those things happened. And a command is not a telling of a fact, so it can't be a fib.

              We can discuss this further, but at this point I consider it a red herring, and I'd rather finish our discussion on Hezekiah, first.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Derf View Post
                The biggest thing about the Abraham scenario is that it doesn't purport to have a change of God's mind in it at all.
                If we are going to take the words of the Lord "literally" then let us look what He said:
                "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen.22:12).

                Before Abraham took the knife then in the LORD's mind He didn't know if Abraham feared Him or not. But when He saw Abraham take the knife then what was in His mind changed and now he knew that Abraham feared Him.

                That is a change in God's mind.

                In regard to 1 Samuel 16:7 you said:

                Originally posted by Derf View Post
                This was not a commentary on David, but a commentary on Eliab. God knew Eliab would not be a good king.
                No, what is said at 1 Samuel is not limited to just Elib. David said:

                "And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever" (1 Chron.28:9).

                Originally posted by Derf View Post
                Good! so you agree with me that God didn't look into the future for either the first prophecy (he would die of the disease) or the second one (he would survive the disease). That's great. Then if God wasn't going to prolong Hezekiah's life in the first case, but He was going to in the second case, then He must have changed His mind between the two.
                The LORD told Hezekiah that He was going to die when he saw his condition. There is no evidence that the LORD had anything to do with his sickness. Instead, He was just stating a fact. But when he heard his prayer He decided to prolong his life.

                What we see here is the fact that the LORD will answer prayers. Not that He changed His mind about anything.

                Comment


                • You're so funny, Jerry! You say that God changed his mind where I say He didn't, and that He didn't where I say He did. That's sheer argumentativeness.

                  Maybe we're thinking of different definitions of what a "change of mind" means. Here's what I think it means: God changes His mind when He decides to do something different than what He was previously going to do. A change of mind is NOT just learning something new. (God learning something new is a whole different discussion!)

                  Now I'll try to apply that definition below.

                  Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                  If we are going to take the words of the Lord "literally" then let us look what He said:
                  "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen.22:12).

                  Before Abraham took the knife then in the LORD's mind He didn't know if Abraham feared Him or not. But when He saw Abraham take the knife then what was in His mind changed and now he knew that Abraham feared Him.

                  That is a change in God's mind.
                  Here's where you are using the definition of "change of mind" to indicate that God learned something new. I DO believe God learned something new here--He learned that Abraham was willing to obey Him no matter the consequences. It is something that (in my opinion) He could not tell just from knowing Abraham's heart, because a heart is not all that is required to obey. The mind has to command the muscles according to what the heart decides to do (if I'm understanding how the scriptures use the word "heart", and the muscles have to respond.

                  God picked the biggest consequence of all for Abraham--the loss of his son--and asked Abraham to submit.

                  In regard to 1 Samuel 16:7 you said:



                  No, what is said at 1 Samuel is not limited to just Elib. David said:

                  "And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever" (1 Chron.28:9).
                  1 Samuel 16:7 is a reaction to Samuel's assessment of Eliab. God rejected Eliab for the reasons given--that He looks at the heart while men look at outward things. The verse is ONLY about Eliab as the future king of Israel and Samuel's assessment of him. The other brothers were also assessed (by God, as we are not given Samuel's thoughts on them) throughout the next few verses, and God did not select them, either.

                  Yes, you are correct that your 1 Chron 28:9 passage is similarly about outward appearances and inward submission. Let me say that either one by itself is garbage. If we only submit inwardly, but continue to reject God outwardly, it isn't real submission, is it. (Imagine Abraham telling God, "Yes, Lord, I will go and sacrifice Isaac", but he never sets out on the journey to Moriah.) Or if we submit outwardly, but only do so grudgingly, we aren't really submitting, are we? It takes both. God wanted both from Abraham. God wanted both from Solomon. That's why the verse says "and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind". The "service" is the outward. The "willing mind" is the thoughts. The "perfect heart" is, I think, the intentions--not just to get what we want (which would allow us to serve outwardly with a willing mind, but not necessarily for the right reasons). All three need to be right!

                  Interestingly enough, Solomon had his own test, when God asked him what he would have of God.
                  In that night did God appear unto Solomon, and said unto him, Ask what I shall give thee. [2Ch 1:7 KJV]

                  And God found out Solomon's answer--he looked at his heart. How? By hearing what Solomon said:
                  And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king: [2Ch 1:11 KJV]

                  The LORD told Hezekiah that He was going to die when he saw his condition. There is no evidence that the LORD had anything to do with his sickness. Instead, He was just stating a fact. But when he heard his prayer He decided to prolong his life.

                  What we see here is the fact that the LORD will answer prayers. Not that He changed His mind about anything.
                  If the Lord knew Hezekiah was going to die if He didn't intervene, and He told Hezekiah he was going to die, that's because He wasn't planning on intervening. Whether the sickness was the result of anything God did is immaterial--His intervening was the thing that changed. When Isaiah gave the first prophecy, implicit in it is the thought that God was NOT intervening to save Hez's life, and when Isaiah came back just a few verses later and said Hez would survive, it's because God decided to intervene. Such a scenario fits perfectly with my first "change of mind" definition.

                  Here's what thefreedictionary.com says "change of mind" means: "1.change of mind - a decision to reverse an earlier decision". As I said above, a command is not a decision, though commands often follow from decisions. You have made the mistake of assuming that Abraham's new command indicated God changed His mind. But you have no basis for that except your assumption. And I've given reason why it must not have been so.

                  Applying that definition to Hez's case focuses not on God's decision to CAUSE Hez to die of the disease (which is debatable), but on His decision to LET him die of the disease (which is not debatable--if Hez really died of it, then God MUST have LET him die of it by not taking any action against the disease). God's change of mind in this case was to NOT let him die of the disease.

                  The two results /DYING/ or /NOT DYING/ are polar opposites, you must admit, and God /LETTING HIM DIE/ or /NOT LETTING HIM DIE/ are also polar opposite decisions. If God is in control of all things, and God wasn't /NOT LETTING HIM DIE/ (sorry for the double negative), then He must have been /LETTING HIM DIE/. To say that God did NOT change His mind in this example, you have to say that the scripture here doesn't really mean what it says--perhaps by calling it something like "anthropopathism" (which I've already pointed out doesn't apply).

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Derf View Post
                    You're so funny, Jerry! You say that God changed his mind where I say He didn't, and that He didn't where I say He did. That's sheer argumentativeness.

                    Maybe we're thinking of different definitions of what a "change of mind" means.
                    This is so simple. If we are going to take a literal view then at first the LORD did not know whether or not Abraham feared Him. But after Abraham took hold of the knife then the LORD knew that he feared Him

                    So it is evident that the LORD had a change of mind. How can He believe something about one thing and then later believe something else about the same thing but not have a change of mind? Your idea makes absolutely no sense!

                    One of the meanings for "change of mind" is "to change one's opinion" (Dictionary.com). There can be no doubt that if Genesis 22:12 is taken literally then the LORD had a change of mind.

                    Originally posted by Derf View Post
                    I DO believe God learned something new here--He learned that Abraham was willing to obey Him no matter the consequences.
                    If we stick to what the Scriptures actually say and take a literal reading of this verse then the subject is in regard to whether or not Abraham feared Him:

                    "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me"
                    (Gen.22:12).

                    As I said earlier, since the LORD knows the heart of man then He did not need to see any actions of Abraham in order to know if He feared Him or not:

                    "And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever" (1 Chron.28:9).

                    Despite what is said in this verse you try to argue that the LORD really did not know if Abraham feared Him so He really does not understand all the imaginations of Abraham's thoughts. Do you really believe that the LORD who made us cannot even know if a man fears Him just by looking at that man's heart?

                    Originally posted by Derf View Post
                    If the Lord knew Hezekiah was going to die if He didn't intervene, and He told Hezekiah he was going to die, that's because He wasn't planning on intervening.
                    The episode here is showing that the LORD changed His mind in regard to the timing of Hezekiah's death. But what is being said here cannot be taken in a literal manner because the LORD does not change His mind:
                    "In addition, the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind, because he is not a mortal who changes his mind" (1 Sam.15:29).

                    If you say that in only some cases the Lord will not change His mind but in other cases He will then the same standard must be applied to Him in regard to lying.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                      This is so simple. If we are going to take a literal view then at first the LORD did not know whether or not Abraham feared Him. But after Abraham took hold of the knife then the LORD knew that he feared Him

                      So it is evident that the LORD had a change of mind. How can He believe something about one thing and then later believe something else about the same thing but not have a change of mind? Your idea makes absolutely no sense!

                      One of the meanings for "change of mind" is "to change one's opinion" (Dictionary.com). There can be no doubt that if Genesis 22:12 is taken literally then the LORD had a change of mind.
                      I'll bend on this one, Jerry. If you want that to mean God had a change of mind, I can live with that.


                      If we stick to what the Scriptures actually say
                      which I'm quite willing to do. Are you?
                      and take a literal reading of this verse then the subject is in regard to whether or not Abraham feared Him:

                      "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me"
                      (Gen.22:12).

                      As I said earlier, since the LORD knows the heart of man then He did not need to see any actions of Abraham in order to know if He feared Him or not:

                      "And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever" (1 Chron.28:9).

                      Despite what is said in this verse you try to argue that the LORD really did not know if Abraham feared Him so He really does not understand all the imaginations of Abraham's thoughts. Do you really believe that the LORD who made us cannot even know if a man fears Him just by looking at that man's heart?
                      I'm only asking that you let the Lord speak for Himself. If He says He wants to see our faith worked out, who am I and who are you to tell Him it's not necessary?

                      Besides, I never said God CAN'T search all hearts or understand all imaginations of the thoughts. But I can imagine TWO opposite things. I can imagine that I am going to go rob a bank tomorrow, and I can imagine that I'm NOT going to go rob a bank tomorrow. Which one do you think I will do? Does God know what I am going to do tomorrow? Maybe. Or maybe He doesn't until I decide. That doesn't mean that He doesn't know my heart, just that He doesn't know whether I will sin or not. Maybe that's because He made me with a will that can obey or disobey. That's called free will--if I'm not already scheduled to make a particular choice at a particular time.

                      The episode here is showing that the LORD changed His mind in regard to the timing of Hezekiah's death. But what is being said here cannot be taken in a literal manner because the LORD does not change His mind:
                      "In addition, the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind, because he is not a mortal who changes his mind" (1 Sam.15:29).

                      If you say that in only some cases the Lord will not change His mind but in other cases He will then the same standard must be applied to Him in regard to lying.
                      I think it depends on the cases. If God never changes His mind about anything, then does He really respond to our prayers? If God doesn't respond to our prayers, does He respond to us at all? If God does not respond to us, then is He really our heavenly father? Jesus seemed to think that our Father would be more kind than the judge who just gave the woman what she wanted to get rid of her. You are saying God is less kind than that--that God won't even give us what we ask for just to get rid of us, much less because He loves us.

                      So if God really hears our prayers, if He really heard Hezekiah's prayer that day, and answered it, then He had a change of mind. If that bothers you, read the rest of the chapter in 1 Sam 15. You don't even have to leave the chapter to find not one, but two seeming contradictions. Even within the same chapter, you've chosen to disregard 2 instances of God saying He HAS changed His mind in favor of 1 instance where Samuel says God doesn't. As much as I respect Samuel, I'd rather go with what God says, if they are going to diverge.

                      Or perhaps we need to find how both can be true. Are you interested?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Derf View Post
                        I'll bend on this one, Jerry. If you want that to mean God had a change of mind, I can live with that.
                        I said that is we are going to take the verse "literally" then we can see that he had a change of mind.

                        Originally posted by Derf View Post
                        Besides, I never said God CAN'T search all hearts or understand all imaginations of the thoughts.
                        So do you not think that the LORD was able to look at the heart of Abraham and determine whether or not he feared Him? One of the meanings of the Hebrew word translated "fearest" is "inspire reverence, godly fear, and awe."

                        Do you really not think that the LORD did not know that about Abraham when He looked at his heart?

                        Originally posted by Derf View Post
                        I think it depends on the cases. If God never changes His mind about anything, then does He really respond to our prayers?
                        Please look at this short video because Dr. Brown answers your question better than I can:

                        https://askdrbrown.org/library/can-p...ange-gods-mind

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                          I said that is [I think you mean "if"] we are going to take the verse "literally" then we can see that he had a change of mind.



                          So do you not think that the LORD was able to look at the heart of Abraham and determine whether or not he feared Him? One of the meanings of the Hebrew word translated "fearest" is "inspire reverence, godly fear, and awe."

                          Do you really not think that the LORD did not know that about Abraham when He looked at his heart?
                          I think God did not know what Abraham was going to DO with that fear of God that he had already displayed by leaving home and family and moving to Canaan. And that action was what God wanted to see before He declared that Abraham feared God totally (more than other fears). Therefore, I presume such a fear of God actually entails DOING what He says, not just acknowledging in our hearts that what He says is the right thing to do. I think you can understand this. Let's say you saw your son, when he was only 2 years old, start toward a brightly colored glass Christmas ornament on the tree. You tell him, "Jerry Junior, Thou shalt not touch the Christmas ornament!" And you can see him hesitate, trying to decide if he is going to obey or not. You know there's a battle raging inside him, whether he should fear his father or submit to his curiosity. The hesitation is a sign of fear for his father, but it doesn't mean that he is, in the end, going to obey. The fear of father may not be the strongest influence on him--the fear of losing an opportunity to find out about the glass ornament might win.

                          Is it too foreign an idea that God might have been doing the same about Abraham? Testing him to see if his fear of losing his son was greater than his fear of losing his relationship with God?

                          I think the only thing that would cause you to say No to my question is if you have already decided that God knows what Abraham is going to do ahead of time. And then you have to come up with a different reason for the testing, one that focuses on just using the testing to strengthen Abraham or something like that (not that that didn't happen, but was it the only focus?).

                          Please look at this short video because Dr. Brown answers your question better than I can:

                          https://askdrbrown.org/library/can-p...ange-gods-mind
                          Good video! If you agree with Dr. Brown, then you're ok with God changing His mind, as long as it's the kind of change that doesn't change His overall plan--and "overall plan" didn't necessarily include all the Israelites alive when God threatened to destroy them and develop a people from Moses, as Dr. Brown so clearly indicated. I'm good with that!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Derf View Post
                            Testing him to see if his fear of losing his son was greater than his fear of losing his relationship with God?
                            It was not a matter of if Abraham thought he might lose Isaac because that is not what was on his mind:

                            "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure"
                            (Heb.11:17-19).

                            Abraham feared the Lord, meaning that to him the LORD inspired reverence, godly fear, and awe.

                            The LORD, who can look at the heart of man and know their thoughts, knew for certain that Abraham trusted Him to raise up Isaac from the dead if he killed him. But you say that even though the LORD knows the heart of men and knows their thoughts He did not even know what Abraham was thinking in regard to Him raising Isaac from the dead.

                            Originally posted by Derf View Post
                            If you agree with Dr. Brown, then you're ok with God changing His mind, as long as it's the kind of change that doesn't change His overall plan--and "overall plan" didn't necessarily include all the Israelites alive when God threatened to destroy them and develop a people from Moses, as Dr. Brown so clearly indicated. I'm good with that!
                            Do you really think that the LORD's threat to destroy all the Jews except for Moses should be taken literally? I cannot take it literally because that causes a huge problem concerning the tribe from which the Lord Jesus was prophesised to come from. If Moses destroyed all the descendants of Judah how is it possible that the Lord Jesus would come from that tribe (Gen.49:10)?

                            And how could the prophecies concerning the descendants of Jacob's other sons be fulfilled? After all, the LORD said this:

                            "God is not like people. He tells no lies. He is not like humans. He doesn't change his mind. When he says something, he does it. When he makes a promise, he keeps it" (Num.23:19).

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                            • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                              It was not a matter of if Abraham thought he might lose Isaac because that is not what was on his mind:

                              "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure"
                              (Heb.11:17-19).

                              Abraham feared the Lord, meaning that to him the LORD inspired reverence, godly fear, and awe.

                              The LORD, who can look at the heart of man and know their thoughts, knew for certain that Abraham trusted Him to raise up Isaac from the dead if he killed him. But you say that even though the LORD knows the heart of men and knows their thoughts He did not even know what Abraham was thinking in regard to Him raising Isaac from the dead.
                              I trust that God can raise my son from the dead, too. But if God asked me to go kill my son--I would have a hard time doing it. If I can't put my "faith" into action, then God knowing about my "faith" seems to mean very little.

                              The author of Hebrews is able to say those words, "Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead", because he knew that Abraham went as far as he did, even being ready to plunge the knife into Isaac. Your reference backs up my side of the story.

                              Do you really think that the LORD's threat to destroy all the Jews except for Moses should be taken literally? I cannot take it literally because that causes a huge problem concerning the tribe from which the Lord Jesus was prophesised to come from. If Moses destroyed all the descendants of Judah how is it possible that the Lord Jesus would come from that tribe (Gen.49:10)?

                              And how could the prophecies concerning the descendants of Jacob's other sons be fulfilled? After all, the LORD said this:

                              "God is not like people. He tells no lies. He is not like humans. He doesn't change his mind. When he says something, he does it. When he makes a promise, he keeps it" (Num.23:19).
                              I'm just saying that's what Dr. Brown seemed to believe, and if you gave me his link to explain how things work, I would think you would agree with Dr. Brown. Apparently I was mistaken. You should be careful not to refer people to sources you don't agree with.

                              Again, your Dr. Brown reference backs up my side of the story--that God can change His mind without changing His purposes.

                              (Score: Derf 2, Jerry Shugart 0)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Derf View Post
                                I trust that God can raise my son from the dead, too. But if God asked me to go kill my son--I would have a hard time doing it. If I can't put my "faith" into action, then God knowing about my "faith" seems to mean very little.
                                So according to your view even though the LORD knows the heart of all men and knows their thoughts He was blind when it came to knowing what was in the mind of Abraham. Once again you prove that you are willing to stand reason on its head in order to cling to your mistaken ideas.

                                You have gone from an assertion that the LORD actually knew the heart of one man to admitting that He knows the thoughts of all men but now you say that He didn't really know the thoughts of Abraham.

                                Originally posted by Derf View Post
                                The author of Hebrews is able to say those words, "Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead", because he knew that Abraham went as far as he did, even being ready to plunge the knife into Isaac. Your reference backs up my side of the story.
                                So you think that the author of Hebrews was just guessing about what was on the mind of Abraham, even though Paul says that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Tim.3:16)? And then to top it off you take a victory lap!

                                Originally posted by Derf View Post
                                Again, your Dr. Brown reference backs up my side of the story--that God can change His mind without changing His purposes.
                                How can you claim victory since you did not even attempt to answer my points about this subject:

                                Do you really think that the LORD's threat to destroy all the Jews except for Moses should be taken literally? I cannot take it literally because that causes a huge problem concerning the tribe from which the Lord Jesus was prophesised to come from. If Moses destroyed all the descendants of Judah how is it possible that the Lord Jesus would come from that tribe (Gen.49:10)?

                                And how could the prophecies concerning the descendants of Jacob's other sons be fulfilled? After all, the LORD said this:

                                "God is not like people. He tells no lies. He is not like humans. He doesn't change his mind. When he says something, he does it. When he makes a promise, he keeps it" (Num.23:19).

                                Comment

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