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Did God place Adam in the garden for him to fail?

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  • Theology Club: Did God place Adam in the garden for him to fail?

    Did God give Adam dominion over eveything on Earth, for him to fail?

    Would you serve a God who would perform His Will in such a way that you would have no control, nothing to say about it over the performing of it?
    Last edited by Cross Reference; April 5, 2015, 05:53 AM.
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

  • #2
    That's strange. No one seems to have an opinion. Yet, most everyone can't except the idea God created Adam to be like Him ___ in every way.
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

    Comment


    • #3
      This is the Open View section. Those who believe in the open view do not believe God intended, or knew, that Adam would fail. Those who believe in Calvinism believe God intended Adam to fail, and those who believe in Arminianism believe God did not do it on purpose, but knew Adam would fail [Arminianism makes no sense].

      So, to answer your question: No. [I am an open viewer]

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
        This is the Open View section. Those who believe in the open view do not believe God intended, or knew, that Adam would fail. Those who believe in Calvinism believe God intended Adam to fail, and those who believe in Arminianism believe God did not do it on purpose, but knew Adam would fail [Arminianism makes no sense].

        So, to answer your question: No. [I am an open viewer]
        Good. Then lets try to close the gap in our thinking.

        1. I am not of any of those stripes yet can agree with some of all of them.

        How 'bout I said God had no choice but to do it they way He did?
        "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

        Comment


        • #5
          a large portion of Jesus when He rebukes his disciples is when they don't understand that they have authority and an expectation to subdue and have authority over all things earthly, atomically and life based substance.

          Jesus rebuked them for not stilling the storm or fully walk on the water or not be able to feed the 5000.
          also Jesus rebuked them for being amazed that the fig tree shriveled.
          also He rebuked them for not being able to cast out demons fully.

          thus the commission Adam was given to subdue and have authority over earth and the earthly realm did not stop. That authority still has some form of residue and did not cease. It is mans lack of faith that Christ rebuked.

          Now we have the Holy Spirit to empower us in all things pertaining to faith and righteousness. So how much more should we seek, ask and knock. Not asking amiss but being able to walk in the Spirit and see Gods desires that He wants us to partner with him/colabor with him.

          Some cessationists try to label healing or the miraculous as a magic wand exclusively enacted by the believers desire. And imply that that type of gift was for a short period of time in the early church.
          maybe so.
          but it does not dismiss the commands to ask, seek, pray, knock. And It does not dismiss the scriptures that show that these signs shall follow those who believe. Nor does it dismiss the scripture that all things are possible.

          If we ask amiss God will not respond.
          But if we are asking within His will and walking in Love and the Spirit then we can have boldness to receive answers or healings and miracles.

          walk in the Spirit. Get used to hearing and obeying.
          see the guidelines of scripture to keep you from asking amiss.

          But don't ignore the Desire God has to use man in his original commissions in genesis.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cross Reference View Post
            Good. Then lets try to close the gap in our thinking.

            1. I am not of any of those stripes yet can agree with some of all of them.

            How 'bout I said God had no choice but to do it they way He did?
            The idea that God had no choice is of the settled view [Calvinism or Arminianism]. Arminianism will try to say that God had a choice, but that's illogical given their view that God knew what was going to happen in the end before it even began.

            God had a choice.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
              The idea that God had no choice is of the settled view [Calvinism or Arminianism]. Arminianism will try to say that God had a choice, but that's illogical given their view that God knew what was going to happen in the end before it even began.

              God had a choice.
              What choice would that have been, if you know what He was after?
              "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                The idea that God had no choice is of the settled view [Calvinism or Arminianism]. Arminianism will try to say that God had a choice, but that's illogical given their view that God knew what was going to happen in the end before it even began.

                God had a choice.
                (((unless))) the Word/Jesus/firstborn of all creation, who created all things limited His foreknowledge.
                The Father who is Spirit knows all.
                But the dynamics of free will and relationship factors gives the perspective of limited foreknowledge the more likely logical answer that combines all of the tension above discussed.

                limited foreknowledge agrees with much scripture that allows true relationship.
                true worship given freely not programmed.
                verifies The Words desire that all men would be saved and come to salvation. Yet allows for choice in men to (deny)

                thus men are not programmed and puppet stringed to go to hell without the opportunity or empowerment to repent, believe and receive.

                Christ does not make His children knowing that this one will go to hell and that one won't. Limiting His foreknowledge allows Him to love all and desire for all to come to him.

                Anger and judging the wicked for what he has already programmed them to do without giving the empowerment to repent. would be illogical.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cross Reference View Post
                  Did God give Adam dominion over eveything on Earth, for him to fail?

                  Would you serve a God who would perform His Will in such a way that you would have no control, nothing to say about it over the performing of it?
                  I would and do serve such a Creator and Sustainer of all. I do so because I am not the center of the ''universe'' He is.
                  I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

                  "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

                  I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
                  A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
                  If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

                  Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

                  I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    [QUOTE=Word based mystic;4281631]
                    (((unless))) the Word/Jesus/firstborn of all creation, who created all things limited His foreknowledge.
                    Jesus was the first born of a new creation whose foundation is "Redempttion".

                    The Father who is Spirit knows all.
                    But the dynamics of free will and relationship factors gives the perspective of limited foreknowledge the more likely logical answer that combines all of the tension above discussed.

                    limited foreknowledge agrees with much scripture that allows true relationship.
                    true worship given freely not programmed.
                    verifies The Words desire that all men would be saved and come to salvation. Yet allows for choice in men to (deny)

                    thus men are not programmed and puppet stringed to go to hell without the opportunity or empowerment to repent, believe and receive.

                    Christ does not make His children knowing that this one will go to hell and that one won't. Limiting His foreknowledge allows Him to love all and desire for all to come to him.

                    Anger and judging the wicked for what he has already programmed them to do without giving the empowerment to repent. would be illogical.
                    I believe you are missing the point in this. God, within His creation, HAD to perform in a specific way that would not violate the "Rules of the game" proposed by, not only Satan, but the angels of Heaven. This gives the reason this verse is so important to take into our thinking in a way going unnoticed and thus, untaught: "For we [who are in Christ/born again] wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."Ephesians 6:12 (KJV 1900)

                    Ask yourself the question why? And is it not the same battle Jesus took upon Himself while in the wilderness that we are to example from our life but only by intimacy with Him that we are able to: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."Ephesians 6:12 (KJV)

                    If Jesus did it all, why is this something Paul speaks of that is for us to do and WHY? Which brings us back to the reason Adam needed to be proven and God had NO choice.
                    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cross Reference View Post
                      What choice would that have been, if you know what He was after?
                      Whether or not to create.

                      Originally posted by Word based mystic View Post
                      (((unless))) the Word/Jesus/firstborn of all creation, who created all things limited His foreknowledge.
                      The Father who is Spirit knows all.
                      But the dynamics of free will and relationship factors gives the perspective of limited foreknowledge the more likely logical answer that combines all of the tension above discussed.
                      Do you think God incapable of limiting His foreknowledge? How about His knowledge?

                      How about the limits of existence, wherein that which does not exist cannot, therefore, be known?

                      limited foreknowledge agrees with much scripture that allows true relationship.
                      true worship given freely not programmed.
                      verifies The Words desire that all men would be saved and come to salvation. Yet allows for choice in men to (deny)

                      thus men are not programmed and puppet stringed to go to hell without the opportunity or empowerment to repent, believe and receive.

                      Christ does not make His children knowing that this one will go to hell and that one won't. Limiting His foreknowledge allows Him to love all and desire for all to come to him.

                      Anger and judging the wicked for what he has already programmed them to do without giving the empowerment to repent. would be illogical.
                      It seems we agree, to a point.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
                        What choice would that have been, if you know what He was after?

                        Whether or not to create
                        .

                        No. God wanted something for Himself set in the "Word", the expression of His Heart. Something created and purposed to be a vast family of Sons with the "Word" as its Human centerpiece which necessitated Him not giving up but in a prescribed way could only be done that would secure it to His "abolute, never changing, inflexibile in His Holy Being, the Angels could only embrace if successful. He attempted it with a top down approach with Lucifer who wound up challenging Him for possession of it all.

                        Ponder that when dealing with Adam who was to prove himself from the bottom up.
                        "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cross Reference View Post
                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
                          What choice would that have been, if you know what He was after?

                          .

                          No. God wanted something for Himself set in the "Word", the expression of His Heart. Something created and purposed to be a vast family of Sons with the Word as its centerpiece, that necessitated Him not giving up but in a prescribed way it could only be done that would secure it to His "abolute, never changing, inflexibile in Holiness, Being", the Angels could only embrace if successful. He attempted it with a top down approach with Lucifer who wound up challenging Him for possession of it all.

                          Ponder that when dealing with Adam who was to prove himself from the bottom up.
                          He [God] still chose to do it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                            He [God] still chose to do it.
                            For what reason did He choose is the issue, don't you think? Could He not have to prove Lucifer wrong?
                            "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              [QUOTE=Lighthouse;4281836]Whether or not to create.

                              you quoted "Do you think God incapable of limiting His foreknowledge? How about His knowledge?"

                              I said God can choose to limit or not limit. I believe He as the Firstborn/Word limited himself so as to make viable true relationship with man and true interaction. Surprise, pleasure, joy, desire for love and vice versa. not that God needs those but that He desires.

                              As the Father who is Spirit He knows all (period).
                              The Son has access to The Fathers knowledge but has limited his own knowledge to enable relationship and free will response of love, desire, passion and worship.

                              1 cor 2:10-11 for the Spirit ((searches)) all things, (even) the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? (Even so) the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God


                              You quoted "How about the limits of existence, wherein that which does not exist cannot, therefore, be known?"

                              I said. I think that is a mute point. Anything that can exist is known. And God is both capable of creating anything as well as knows everything.
                              Last edited by Word based mystic; April 6, 2015, 11:46 AM.

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