Theology Club: If It Be Possible, Let This Cup Pass From Me

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

So we are supposed to believe that during the Lord Jesus' entire existence of which there was no beginning that He knew things were set in stone and He just forgot that?

I find that impossible to believe!

Do you find it impossible to believe that someone can be filled with the Holy Spirit? If a person is filled with the Holy Spirit, does he know everything that God the Father knows?

 

[intojoy]

If It Be Possible, Let This Cup Pass From Me

Then if you are right we must believe that the Father forgot to tell Him that all things are set in stone.



Is that your argument?

It is written

The Lord G od has given Me the tongue of disciples, That I may know how to sustain the weary one with a word. He awakens Me morning by morning, He awakens My ear to listen as a disciple. The Lord G od has opened My ear; (Here we see Messiah's self imposed limitation to His omniscience)


And I was not disobedient Nor did I turn back. I gave My back to those who strike Me, And My cheeks to those who pluck out the beard; I did not cover My face from humiliation and spitting. (And here we see that the Messiah did not automatically endure the punishment of our sin like a figure from a super hero movie, but rather the Messiah had to willingly suffer a tremendous suffering. We can know for sure that Messiah's prayer to evade that suffering was not because Messiah thought it possible but rather to show us the severity of the physical pain and torture that He knew was coming, something jerry is spitting on by ignoring the correct interpretation of Yeshua's cry.)


For the Lord G od helps Me, Therefore, I am not disgraced; (Why did Messiah need to be concerned about being disgraced? He is God)

Therefore, I have set My face like flint, And I know that I will not be ashamed. (Isaiah 50:4-7 NASB)

(Messiah needed the Father's love and needed the Father's teaching and needed the Father's strength to endure the cross. The Son of God did not need these things from the Father before the incarnation because the fullness of the Godhead dwelled in Him but by humbling Himself Yeshua took on the form of a servant of a man).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

From that passage we know for certain that within the humanity of the Son of God before He was glorified He had limited knowledge - Jerry my good man.

We also know that even at the age of twelve He had a tremendous understanding of the Scriptures:

"After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers" (Lk.2:46-47).​

Even the teachers were amazed at His knowledge. But according to you the Scriptures make it plain that every single thing was predetermined and set in stone but the Lord Jesus was ignorant of that eighteen years later!

 

[intojoy]

The reason that Yeshua was able to confound the teachers on His twelfth birthday was He was taught a twilight bible study in the wee hours of the mornings by His real Father as a youth. That knowledge according to Isaiah was taught to the Messiah.

From that passage we know for certain that within the humanity of the Son of God before He was glorified He had limited knowledge - Jerry my good man.

This is the explanation why Messiah said that only the Father knew the hour of His return.

@linnet
When a boy turned 12, he would make a pilgrimage to the Temple. He would then make a decision to follow in his father's vocation or enter the rabbinical school. Yeshua remained in the Temple and did not follow His mother home and answered her; I must be about my Father's business.

No charge fo dat

 

[Jerry Shugart]

From that passage we know for certain that within the humanity of the Son of God before He was glorified He had limited knowledge - Jerry my good man.

We also know that even at the age of twelve He had a tremendous understanding of the Scriptures:

"After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers" (Lk.2:46-47).​

Even the teachers were amazed at His knowledge. But according to you the Scriptures make it plain that every single thing was predetermined and set in stone but the Lord Jesus was ignorant of that eighteen years later!

 

[intojoy]

If It Be Possible, Let This Cup Pass From Me

We also know that even at the age of twelve He had a tremendous understanding of the Scriptures:

"After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers" (Lk.2:46-47).​

Even the teachers were amazed at His knowledge. But according to you the Scriptures make it plain that every single thing was predetermined and set in stone but the Lord Jesus was ignorant of that eighteen years later!

QUOTE=Jerry Shugart;3831662]We also know that even at the age of twelve He had a tremendous understanding of the Scriptures:

Is "tremendous understanding" omniscience to you jerry?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Is "tremendous knowledge" omniscience to you jerry?

No, but we are not talking about omnisceience, are we?

Instead we are talking about whether or not the Lord Jesus understood that all things are predetermined by God to happen so from the beginning all things are set in stone.

Evidently He did not find that teaching in the Scriptures.

 

[intojoy]

No, but we are not talking about omnisceience, are we?



Instead we are talking about whether or not the Lord Jesus understood that all things are predetermined by God to happen so from the beginning all things are set in stone.



Evidently He did not find that teaching in the Scriptures.

Yes we are talking about omniscience and here is what Yeshua knew perfectly, more vividly than you or I could ever know:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95439

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes we are talking about omniscience and here is what Yeshua knew perfectly, more vividly than you or I could ever know:

No, we are talking about the fact that the Lord Jesus did not think that the future was set in stone. While He walked the earth the Lord Jesus was certainly aware of the prophecies which foretold of His death. In fact, He said the following about His impending death and burial:

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt.12:40).​

Yet despite the prophecies concerning His sufferings and His own words concerning His death on the eve of the crucifixion we see Him praying to the Father in the following way:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

So we can see that with the Lord Jesus the necessity to be crucified arose, not because of an irrevocable prophecy of the past, but instead from the sovereign will of the Father.

The Lord Jesus did not think that it was impossible that He might be spared from the sufferings so He did not think the future was set in stone.

So we can know with absolute certainity that the future is open.

 

[intojoy]

No, we are talking about the fact that the Lord Jesus did not think that the future was set in stone. While He walked the earth the Lord Jesus was certainly aware of the prophecies which foretold of His death. In fact, He said the following about His impending death and burial:

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt.12:40).​

Yet despite the prophecies concerning His sufferings and His own words concerning His death on the eve of the crucifixion we see Him praying to the Father in the following way:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

So we can see that with the Lord Jesus the necessity to be crucified arose, not because of an irrevocable prophecy of the past, but instead from the sovereign will of the Father.



The Lord Jesus did not think that it was impossible that He might be spared from the sufferings so He did not think the future was set in stone.



So we can know with absolute certainity that the future is open.

There's a grin forming on my face now

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There's a grin forming on my face now

So you finally realized that I am right!

 

[intojoy]

So you finally realized that I am right!

Yes. But if Yeshua thought that the future was open because of the limitation of the self imposed humanity upon Himself, does that mean that the Father is not predetermining the future set in stone?

Of course not, the future is set in stone and the Father knows all of it now. Your observation of Yeshua's limitations while in human form do not make for such a folly doctrine as open theism. Even my high school drop out mind figured that out.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Of course not, the future is set in stone and the Father knows all of it now.

If the future is set in stone then the Lord Jesus would never have told the Jews to repent because the kingdom was "at hand":

" From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (eggizō)" (Mt.4:17).​

The Greek word eggizō in this verse means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

The word "ïmminent" means that it could happen at any moment.

So here it is two thousand years later and it still hasn't happened and according to you it was set in stone that it would not happen when the Lord Jesus said those words.

If you are right and it was set in stone that it could not possibly happen until two thousand years later then the Lord would have never said that it was "imminent."

Even my high school drop out mind figured that out.

Then you should be able to figure it out that the time of the arrival of the kingdom was not set in stone.

 

[intojoy]

Yeshua said that the kingdom was at hand and it was. The offer of the kingdom was valid. If the Jews had accepted Messiah, He would have been arrested by Rome for treason against the empire as He was, He would have been tried for treason against Rome as He was and He would have been put to death by the Romans as He was. He would have accomplished the atonement and set up the Messianic kingdom in the first century. But He did not because God did not plan for it to happen that way. But just because God did not plan for it to happen that way does not mean that Yeshua could have lied and not offered Israel the kingdom legitimately, genuinely. God cannot lie, it was a real offer that got rejected.

You see jerry, it can work both ways. Btw, jerry gets auto spelled without the capital J from my iPhone, sorry bout that

 

[Bob Enyart]

The four persons of the Trinity...

The four persons of the Trinity...

As is typical, the unsettled theist confuses the humanity of Christ speaking within Scripture from the divinity....[/URL][/i].

Hello AMR and everyone else. I've only read the first two posts, but thought I'd say hello, and also add that, as you know AMR, there are not four persons of the godhead, but only three.

Everything that Jesus says He says as God the Son. Jesus was not a human being whom God the Son possessed. He is fully man and fully God. Fictitious Gods, like Allah, can speak out of two sides of their mouths. Jesus humanity didn't become flesh. The eternal God the Son became flesh. It was God the Son suffering in the garden. It was God the Son suffering on the cross. The Father was pouring His wrath out on God the Son.

But none of that seems significant to the Calvinists whom I speak to. Perhaps the reason is because, even when Jesus Himself makes it clear that He is talking as God the Son, Calvinists reject even His own firsthand testimony to that effect. They reject the Lord's direct statement of the knowledge of "the Son", and claim that it is Jesus' humanity talking, as though the godhead consists of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, and that Human One. When Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour of His second advent, and neither do the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father, He is specifically giving us a hierarchy, and telling us something that the Son does not know.

And of course, just as if you didn't know when the Europeans came to America, there would be an enormous flood of additional, dependent information that you also wouldn't know, likewise, if God the Son does not know the day or the hour of His own second coming -- because He has agreed that decision would be in the hands of the Father -- then there is an infinite amount of detailed future knowledge that is likewise unavailable to the Son. But so what: mindless bureaucrats, like the Nazis in WWI, may have a paperwork obsession to document every conceivable bit of useless information. But God is a person. And just like the most brilliant chess players who intuitively ignore millions of plies of moves, knowing that they are irrelevant, so too, because God is a person He can ignore infinite details. A deity who thought he had to track every molecule of toilet paper and trace its entire life cycle, and retain this information eternally, is the kind of deity imagined by the darkened minds of the pagan Greeks. Because the God of the Bible is a person, therefore He has a will. And because He has a will, which is the ability to decide, He can decide what information He wants to possess, and what to pass on. When it comes to base animal function, God seems more interested in privacy and modesty then in tracking every molecule. Exhaustive foreknowledge majors in the minors. God doesn't.

- Bob

 

[intojoy]

Hello AMR and everyone else. I've only read the first two posts, but thought I'd say hello, and also add that, as you know AMR, there are not four persons of the godhead, but only three.



Everything that Jesus says He says as God the Son. Jesus was not a human being whom God the Son possessed. He is fully man and fully God. Fictitious Gods, like Allah, can speak out of two sides of their mouths. Jesus humanity didn't become flesh. The eternal God the Son became flesh. It was God the Son suffering in the garden. It was God the Son suffering on the cross. The Father was pouring His wrath out on God the Son.



But none of that seems significant to the Calvinists whom I speak to. Perhaps the reason is because, even when Jesus Himself makes it clear that He is talking as God the Son, Calvinists reject even His own firsthand testimony to that effect. They reject the Lord's direct statement of the knowledge of "the Son", and claim that it is Jesus' humanity talking, as though the godhead consists of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, and that Human One. When Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour of His second advent, and neither do the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father, He is specifically giving us a hierarchy, and telling us something that the Son does not know.



And of course, just as if you didn't know when the Europeans came to America, there would be an enormous flood of additional, dependent information that you also wouldn't know, likewise, if God the Son does not know the day or the hour of His own second coming -- because He has agreed that decision would be in the hands of the Father -- then there is an infinite amount of detailed future knowledge that is likewise unavailable to the Son. But so what: mindless bureaucrats, like the Nazis in WWI, may have a paperwork obsession to document every conceivable bit of useless information. But God is a person. And just like the most brilliant chess players who intuitively ignore millions of plies of moves, knowing that they are irrelevant, so too, because God is a person He can ignore infinite details. A deity who thought he had to track every molecule of toilet paper and trace its entire life cycle, and retain this information eternally, is the kind of deity imagined by the darkened minds of the pagan Greeks. Because the God of the Bible is a person, therefore He has a will. And because He has a will, which is the ability to decide, He can decide what information He wants to possess, and what to pass on. When it comes to base animal function, God seems more interested in privacy and modesty then in tracking every molecule. Exhaustive foreknowledge majors in the minors. God doesn't.



- Bob

Bob, respectfully, that is only an opinion. You have a right to it but I can't see anything in your statement supported by scripture.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yeshua said that the kingdom was at hand and it was.

If you are right and everything is set in stone then it is impossible that the Lord Jesus would tell them that the ushering in of the kingdom could happen at any moment.

That is because, if you are right, the kingdom could not possibly be ushered in until at least two thousand years later.

 

[intojoy]

Just like atonement is available for all but only the elect receive the benefits of it, the kingdom was offered to that generation even tho it was planned that that generation was going to reject it. God made a real offer of the atonement for all, God made a real offer of the kingdom for Israel in the same fashion.

 

[intojoy]

View attachment 18566

 

[Bright Raven]

What did Jesus see in that cup to ask for it to pass?