Theology Club: For Free Grace believers, was Spurgeon right?

[Totton Linnet]

The highlighted phrase seems out of place with the rest of your reply. Maybe you could clarify.

Well the Baptists had no creed at that time, admission into fellowship was upon baptism by full immersion. Spurgeon believed, and I am certain he was right, that the whole of the dissenting church was being deliberately targeted by men who did not believe certain doctrines such as the virgin birth, atonement at the cross, the resurrection etc.

These were men affected by "the enlightenment" and they came on a mission, many had found their way into the largest pulpits and the bible schools. Nonconformity was BIG in Britain in those days.

Spurgeon wanted the Baptists to formulate a creed in order to drive them out. Others who did agree with Spurgeon as to his warnings felt he was wrong in calling for this action and that such a plan was divisive and would bring about open warfare.

I think they were right and I think the Holy Ghost even through Spurgeon himself would have gotten victory.

Spurgeon was a leader of no small stature in Nineteenth century christendom.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Well the Baptists had no creed at that time, admission into fellowship was upon baptism by full immersion. Spurgeon believed, and I am certain he was right, that the whole of the dissenting church was being deliberately targeted by men who did not believe certain doctrines such as the virgin birth, atonement at the cross, the resurrection etc.

These were men affected by "the enlightenment" and they came on a mission, many had found their way into the largest pulpits and the bible schools. Nonconformity was BIG in Britain in those days.

Spurgeon wanted the Baptists to formulate a creed in order to drive them out. Others who did agree with Spurgeon as to his warnings felt he was wrong in calling for this action and that such a plan was divisive and would bring about open warfare.

I think they were right and I think the Holy Ghost even through Spurgeon himself would have gotten victory.

Spurgeon was a leader of no small stature in Nineteenth century christendom.

These creeds are basically statements of faith. But for those of us that believe in sola scriptura, these statements (creeds) are tested against Holy Scripture. I don't see how a creed can cover everything in the Bible. So you still can have disagreements in the church that a creed doesn't resolve.

 

[Totton Linnet]

But it is a mechanism for exclusion even expulsion especially from the ministry.

There is no doubt that what Spurgeon saw was real and not [as many tried to say] and over active imagination, these men with their new doctrines were deliberately infiltrating the dissent. Spurgeon wanted them OUT and in that he was right. But his zeal would like the zeal of Jehu would have caused much bloodshed [metaphorically]

He could not see that his very ministry was God's answer to the problem. And God could have gotten the victory without the engine of creeds. In other words [in my most humble opinion...for I love Spurgeon] Spurgeon was pre-empting God.

 

[mmstroud]

But it is a mechanism for exclusion even expulsion especially from the ministry.

There is no doubt that what Spurgeon saw was real and not [as many tried to say] and over active imagination, these men with their new doctrines were deliberately infiltrating the dissent. Spurgeon wanted them OUT and in that he was right. But his zeal would like the zeal of Jehu would have caused much bloodshed [metaphorically]

He could not see that his very ministry was God's answer to the problem. And God could have gotten the victory without the engine of creeds. In other words [in my most humble opinion...for I love Spurgeon] Spurgeon was pre-empting God.

I'm no expert on the early church or the creeds, but to just use the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed as examples, the affirmations within are points of doctrine at which no professing Christian should balk. I don't remember what Spurgeon was proposing - been too long since I read up on it. I believe there is value in a creed that responds to error and heresy. At my church we recite either the Apostle's Creed or the Nicene Creed on the Sunday we observe the Lord's Supper, as an affirmation of our shared faith. We have received good teaching about them and understand the errors of their time that were being answered, so they're meaningful as we, in our affirmation, also reject those errors.

And Totty, I'm not sure you and I have ever talked about the sovereignty of God, but I don't think it's possible for Spurgeon to have run ahead of the Holy Spirit or trumped God in any regard by attempting to right a wrong. I certainly don't think Spurgeon was perfect but I respect his desire to protect the purity of the faith and even like to try to imagine what the church would have looked like had he been able to stave off the liberalism that was tickling the ears of the people at the time, yet knowing all the while, God was working through the entire event and all those involved.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I'm no expert on the early church or the creeds, but to just use the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed as examples, the affirmations within are points of doctrine at which no professing Christian should balk. I don't remember what Spurgeon was proposing - been too long since I read up on it. I believe there is value in a creed that responds to error and heresy. At my church we recite either the Apostle's Creed or the Nicene Creed on the Sunday we observe the Lord's Supper, as an affirmation of our shared faith. We have received good teaching about them and understand the errors of their time that were being answered, so they're meaningful as we, in our affirmation, also reject those errors.

And Totty, I'm not sure you and I have ever talked about the sovereignty of God, but I don't think it's possible for Spurgeon to have run ahead of the Holy Spirit or trumped God in any regard by attempting to right a wrong. I certainly don't think Spurgeon was perfect but I respect his desire to protect the purity of the faith and even like to try to imagine what the church would have looked like had he been able to stave off the liberalism that was tickling the ears of the people at the time, yet knowing all the while, God was working through the entire event and all those involved.

Stroudy hi.

I thoroughly investigated the downgrade, nobody living I am sure LOVES Spurgeon more than I do....though we must always remember that revelation has moved on...the doctrines and principles whereby God works never change. He works along the same lines always in every dispensation until that dispensation or age closes. But He reveals more.

So a ministry like Spurgeon becomes even more relevant not less.

It is a fact that the Apostles and the Nicene creeds were carefully weighted and crafted in order [by command of Constantine] not to keep OUT error but to keep the opposing factions together, and what an opposition there was, what a gulf....they shoulda let them go their seperate ways...the Arians who denied the divinity of Christ.

But Constantine commanded unity so the Apostle's creed was formulated with words carefully weighed and balanced to keep everybody together.....if they had been allowed to seperate [I believe] the Arians would have died on the vine.

I believe those men who had so DIShonestly infiltrated the church in Spurgeon's day would have been dishonest enough to pay lip service to any creed that might have been formulated and there they would have been there still in the church teaching their blasphemies anyway, good baptists, as good as anybody, just as the Catholic church continued for centuries a mixed bag.

But without the device of a creed the Holy Spirit raises up who He will and casts down who He will.

Once again I do not say Spurgeon was wrong in his analysis or in sounding the alarm....I am thinking of the man who through misplaced zeal stretched forth his hand to steady the ark of the covenant when the cattle stumbled....God can do this thing, He will look after His own glory. It is His job to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

For anyone interested, here's a long paper written by Dr. John MacArthur on the Down-Grade Controversy. From the Spurgeon Archives: http://www.spurgeon.org/downgrd.htm

 

[Totton Linnet]

For anyone interested, here's a long paper written by Dr. John MacArthur on the Down-Grade Controversy. From the Spurgeon Archives: http://www.spurgeon.org/downgrd.htm

I am glad you gave this link, I was afraid that if I did I would get into trouble...it is a valuable piece of evangelical history.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

I am glad you gave this link, I was afraid that if I did I would get into trouble...it is a valuable piece of evangelical history.

When I saw that John MacArthur was the author, I felt at peace posting the link. This is a subject I have only read about here, not something I feel knowledgeable about. So it helps me, and maybe it helps some others understand the discussion.