Theology Club: The Big Picture

Clete

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Arguments are all worldly, and because you will die, will die with you...

Arguments simply affirm the world in which you will die...

The world in which we find ourselves is saturated with death...

Reliance on this world, as you demand, can only yield death...

It is inherently NIHILISTIC...

It terminates in the termination of death...

Arsenios
Unbelievably idiotic, self-defeating stupidity!

Are all these little pithy burps of stupidity true?

If so, how did you come to know it?

Who convinced you and how?

Do NOT answer! The questions answer themselves, not that you'd have the brains enough to understand that.
 

Clete

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In philosophy, one challenges on the basis of premises, and in intelligent philosophy, on the basis of the rule of fundamentality of premises, and the only means of proof is by reference to the reality which we all apprehend in various ways...

The history of Christianity in the first few centuries was one of being ignored and being persecuted... The persecutions resulted in the martyring of Christians in a lot of pretty diabolical ways - I can describe some if you doubt me - but the very word martyr MEANS witness... The witness of the Christian Faith is not of the world we commonly apprehend, but is instead one of the world we do NOT commonly apprehend, which is apprehended by Revelation from God and the Faith which Christ Gave to His Apostles, which is the Christian Faith we see in the world to this day.

So the fundamental premise I am challenging you on is that the "PROOF" that you are insisting upon is a worldly proof, and the reality of the Christian Faith's God is not subject to such constrictions, but is instead the creator of those constrictions... Hence, the Christian proof is ad-hominum, and it is not one that you can match, which is martyrdom itself, in the Radiance of Divine Joy...

THIS proof, you see, you cannot match, and you flee from it, and scorn it to justify your flight, while retreating into logical worldly proofs... The Faith of Christ, you see, is SUPRA-LOGICAL, and works all manner of hidden things you cannot know which created and are sustaining the reality that you, in your fallen condition common to all mankind, are able to see. The eyes of the Faith are only secondarily physical, and are primarily noetic... The eyes you insist upon constraining us to are merely optical, you see, and noetic eyes are not so constrained...

So for us, you are wading with the toddlers in the shallow end of the constricted pool, while the ocean cannot be seen, whose very existence toddlers deny until they are entered into it at death...

I did not find Wittgenstein helpful at all, btw...

Arsenios

You are stupid!

I never asked for proof. What I asked for was an argument!

It's called rational discourse! Where you present ideas that form the foundation of a logical argument and that leads to a conclusion. You may make an error at any point along the way but whether you do or not, because there is more than a mere claim being made, progress can be made in the discussion.

Naked claims are mere opinions. They cannot be refuted nor can they be established without rational discourse (i.e. without making an argument!).

If you don't want to make an argument then you aren't interested in rational discourse. What you're interested in is bloviating, which is frankly boring and almost always a complete waste of everyone's time.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
You are stupid!

...I asked for... rational discourse!

hmmmmmm...
Whatever ELSE you do, AVOID at all costs looking into any mirror...
Even inadvertently...
1-800-USTUPID might avail some helps...

Where you present ideas that form the foundation of a logical argument and that leads to a conclusion. You may make an error at any point along the way but whether you do or not, because there is more than a mere claim being made, progress can be made in the discussion.

I challenged the premise of your premise, and you have failed to engage...

Naked claims are mere opinions. They cannot be refuted nor can they be established without rational discourse (i.e. without making an argument!).

I introduced a premise-essential challenge to your essential premise...

Are you unable to respond without calling me stupid?

If you don't want to make an argument then you aren't interested in rational discourse. What you're interested in is bloviating, which is frankly boring and almost always a complete waste of everyone's time.

Challenging a premise with an ontological proof is VERY rational...

Have you considered anger management classes?

You seem to be getting awfully upset over a few words here...

Arsenios - The Bloviatorialist :)
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Unbelievably idiotic, self-defeating stupidity!

Aw c'mon -

Didja fergit y'erse'f?

You SAID I had my choice:
I was either to MAKE THE ARGUMENT,
which I did,
or
SHUT UP,
which I didn't...

And having been utterly obedient to your DEMAND,
HOW can you possibly be so vicious and mean to me???

Calling me idiotic and stupid beyond measure?

Have you no shame?

Or even perhaps the slightest touch of fair-play?

Are you really so self-involved and hard hearted?

I mean, what I am missing from you is your over-exuberance of JOY!

All I am finding is bitterness and outrage...

You see, this is the ontological argument you cannot face...

All you can do is kick against the goads...

Words are not the reality to which they refer,
No matter how stupid you may think me to be...
So, somehow, you are going to have to get over it...
Because you have not yet apprehended ontological knowing...
You seem to think you can weave a spiderine web of thoughts with words that will hold reality...
An' i'tain't true...
The Germans failed, then birthed Hitler, and he killed many...
Anger and Hate can do strange things...
Far worse than mere name-calling...

Are all these little pithy burps of stupidity true?

Truer than your hatred...

If so, how did you come to know it?

Love and Repentance...

Who convinced you and how?

God by Grace...

Do NOT answer!

Too late! :)

The questions answer themselves,
not that you'd have the brains enough to understand that.

Ever read Dostoyevski's "The Brothers Karamazov" and the chapter titled "The Grand Inquisitor"??
Great argument, you may recall... Two men, the first justifying his own committing of torture and murder with the whole chapter's words to the prisoner in the cell, and the prisoner winning the argument with a kiss...

God bless you, my Brother!

I didn't get it either when I was your age...

And I am worse than you...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

Well-known member
You are stupid!

Flattery avails little...

I never asked for proof. What I asked for was an argument!

Some arguments do prove, for what it might avail...

The rest do not, true enough...

So are you complaining that my argument is proving something?

That you would prefer that it did not?

It's called rational discourse!

Calling me stupid is rational discourse?

Have you considered dictionaries?

Where you present ideas that form the foundation of a logical argument and that leads to a conclusion.

That is what I did, but you did not like the ideas that I presented and called me stupid...

You may make an error at any point along the way but whether you do or not, because there is more than a mere claim being made, progress can be made in the discussion.

I make tons of errors...

Naked claims are mere opinions. They cannot be refuted nor can they be established without rational discourse (i.e. without making an argument!).

The claim was hardly naked - I affirmed your demand for rational arguments by saying that they do apply to the world in which we live and die... I then affirmed that those arguments do NOT and cannot define the Creator of this creation, any more than the laws of automotive metalurgy can define Henry Ford...

If you don't want to make an argument then you aren't interested in rational discourse.

I do and did...

What you're interested in is bloviating, which is frankly boring and almost always a complete waste of everyone's time.

Bloviating is more than a two syllable word, OK?

And I love your use of the term "ALMOST always"...
I sense light at the end of that tunnel...
Hope it is not an oncoming TRAIN!

Arsenios
 

Lon

Well-known member
Again, I’m in no way saying that Christianity is pantheistic, just that there are various models that Christianity could fit into if you wanted one. This is actually a great point for evangelism. None of the models work but all of them have points that can help us to understand the New Testament teachings. Thought systems such as pantheism or dualism or perhaps even process theology, can act as analogies of Christian truth.

Panentheism?
As to process theology, AN Whitehead does not have exclusive rights over the use of the word ‘process’. But openness theology is fundamentally relational (which is its similarity with stoicism) and since that relation must be dynamic, it has to be concluded that openness advocates that an open world necessarily implies that the world is in process.
This however, has a God that is 'in process' which is why you get "Process Theology" accusation.

This is in direct contrast with the Calvinistic view of the world as having been already pre-fabricated by God and hence is completely closed. But to suggest that because I believe in this kind of openness, it means that I favour process theology as such, is way off the mark.
Well, in a world, created by God, the parameters 'must' be closed or it'd be bigger than God. Even the Open Theists tend to say God is omnicompetent. In order to be, even from that logical perspective, the system would have to be closed (completely knowable).


But the strong dualistic system in which Calvinism is located also has faults, the main one being that in it, God is completely ineffable. How many times have you heard a Calvinist say “But God is beyond logic!”? You can’t argue with that can you? Because the better your arguments, the more your counter party will insist. He seems to delight in that fact that it does not make sense. I despise this kind of thinking because it is anti-intellectual, but it is a natural consequence of the strong dualistic thought system. Because you can’t really know anything about God, no consistency is required in your beliefs. In this world-view, God is so different to us and his thoughts so far above ours that he is illogical whenever we are logical and logical whenever we are illogical. Everything is arbitrary and meaningless.
BUT can we be so logical? Is it actually left intact in man? I'd suggest, because we 'know' good and evil, that we often don't know which is which without God's guidance, and yet still wrestle to figure it out. I used to believe on a few levels that "a loving God wouldn't..." I believed, at the time, I was logical when I was not. God isn't ineffable, my and your logic is getting the accusation. I think we may debate, but only to the effect that Christ has granted us His mind over matters. Because it does, indeed, depend on the particular apprehension we have been granted by Christ, there certainly is to be a degree of frustration, no question. This, however, should be continually evaluated as the miscommunications between systematic theologies.
My version of openness seeks to redress this by asserting that God and his creation relate consistently with each other and openly. This makes communication between God and man possible and meaningful. It also implies that the future of that relationship is not fixed. This is a bigger issue than that of God’s relationship with man or individual people. It means that the whole system of both God and his creation can be viewed as one single coherent system. But this is only a logical issue, not a physical one. It does not mean that I am a pantheist or a panentheist. It does not mean that I think of this single system as in any sense greater than God. It does mean that there is purpose and rationality (= meaning, order, logos) to our existence whereas with the strong dualist view, there really is no purpose in the creation of the world. They say that it is for God’s greater glory that he has made everything the way it is but that always has sounded hollow to me because we can never understand or appreciate what that glory may be. It is all about God and not about us at all. If we are to be valued as human beings we don’t want to be told that we are valuable just because someone arbitrarily decides that we are. We need to understand that we are valuable in ourselves. Similarly, we need to appreciate that our relationship with God has its own benefits now and that we have a foretaste of heaven now. Within Calvinism, specifically its location in the strong dualistic thought system, what we are now will be lost completely, which devalues everything we do. An open relationship with God values us. Moreover, an open relationship between God and the created world values the world as a whole and gives rise to such beautiful things as purpose, responsibility and righteousness.
It also makes sense of the cross because the cross is the proof that God is open, that he is willing to accept the consequences of his own love for us. It is the same as ‘The word became flesh’: the proof of God’s open love became reality. It wasn't mere words, mere theory. Under Calvinism, the cross is actually unnecessary because God could have made the world any way he wanted from start to finish. He would have dictated the terms of the existence of the world. This is why the cross has always been a mystery in reformed theology. It can never overcome the fundamental barrier of its arbitrary nature.


Any comments appreciated.
Openness in interaction need not be without parameters (closed) however. In bowling, I seldom hit gutters but never skip lanes (anymore). Again, a closed system is necessary, as far as my logic demands, for God to be God. -Lon
 

Clete

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Well, in a world, created by God, the parameters 'must' be closed or it'd be bigger than God. Even the Open Theists tend to say God is omnicompetent. In order to be, even from that logical perspective, the system would have to be closed (completely knowable).[/FONT]
Why would it have to be completely knowable?

BUT can we be so logical? Is it actually left intact in man? I'd suggest, because we 'know' good and evil, that we often don't know which is which without God's guidance, and yet still wrestle to figure it out. I used to believe on a few levels that "a loving God wouldn't..." I believed, at the time, I was logical when I was not. God isn't ineffable, my and your logic is getting the accusation. I think we may debate, but only to the effect that Christ has granted us His mind over matters. Because it does, indeed, depend on the particular apprehension we have been granted by Christ, there certainly is to be a degree of frustration, no question. This, however, should be continually evaluated as the miscommunications between systematic theologies.
I always find it amusing to watch people use logic in an attempt to undermine the veracity of logic.

Logic is the only tool your mind has to separate true from false, yes from no, right from wrong. It's the only tool you've got, Lon because it's the only one that exists. Even truths acquired through direct revelation from God Himself are trusted in your mind because of logic (e.g. God is true. This revelation came from God. Therefore this revelation is true.).

We humans can make errors in our logic but that isn't a failing in logic. In other words, errors of logic can be detected by a continued, steadfast, unyielding use of logic. The honest man is always on guard against error and in a relentless pursuit of the truth. Any attempt to undermine the veracity of logic is an attempt to clip your own wings in mid flight.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Clete: Thanks for the suggestion. I tried 'reality' but people just have too many preconceptions about it. Arsenios for example still thought reality meant creation. I will try something else though.
Lon:
Openness in interaction need not be without parameters (closed)
Let me get this right. You are saying that if a relationship has constraints, then it is closed? That doesn't make sense to me. Let's say there are physical barriers in the gutters so your ball cannot possibly pass it (and in any case, there is a floor, which is pretty much a barrier). But you can still bowl the ball anywhere within those limits. Nothing stops you choosing your line. That is not a closed system.
If that's not what you mean and what you mean is fully closed, i.e. completely predictable, then this statement:
"The relationship between A and B is closed."
applies to both entities A and B, not just to entity B.
A system which consists solely of two objects orbiting each other according to the rules of Newtonian mechanics, is completely closed and predictable. A system consisting of three or more bodies orbiting one another in some configuration according to the rules of Newtonian mechanics is theoretically predictable and so it would still be a closed system, even if it was practically impossible to predict its state more than a few iterations forward.
But if you mean that God and his creation are in a relationship that is closed fully in this way, then you can't say that his creation is closed and that he himself isn't. It is the system that is either open or closed, not the members of the system.
In summary, I think you are labouring under a misapprehension. A closed system is one which is fully predictable because nothing extraneous to the system can affect it. A bowling ball running down an alley is not a closed system because it is affected by your choices, which are extraneous to that system.
If you were the bowling ball itself, you wouldn't be able to say 'I'm proud of what I am. I'm proud that I am now on my way to knocking down 10 skittles'. You have nothing whatsoever to be proud of. And if you have any feeling of self-worth at all, it can be nothing more than illusion, a mistake on your part, because your existence and your direction have nothing to do with you but only to do with the person who bowled you. You may even think that you are making the skittles fall down, and in a sense that is true. But your interpretation that it is you who are causing the skittles to fall over, is simply a misunderstanding on your part, because you are just following a direction that was allotted to you by the bowler.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Why would it have to be completely knowable?
I've 'created.' Necessarily, I know everything about what I've made. Having done a buzzilion creations, God's knowledge would be absolute, even if He were merely omnicompetent as the OV says.

I always find it amusing to watch people use logic in an attempt to undermine the veracity of logic.
It is a prideful thing to say, but it is mutual.

Logic is the only tool your mind has to separate true from false, yes from no, right from wrong.
Falsifiable, but it may help you to know, when I was your age, I thought so too. 1 Corinthians 14:2 and other verses were a wake-up call to me.

It's the only tool you've got, Lon because it's the only one that exists.
Then your Spiritual toolbox is bare. For you, there is no need to read scripture because if your logic is intact, then you'd never sin because it is illogical to do so. You've said the Word is logic. I embrace that point, but being a man that needs to be 'more' like Jesus, I now know that this also means that I am to become more logical as well. When I thought my logic was a pinnacle, I was in sad arrogant shape. I've left that behind. I see a huge difference between being in Christ that doesn't jive with the world's thinking about all logic nor what they view common sense. I am more intelligent as far as test results and IQ. That doesn't make me godly. In this sense, ONLY, those who are in Christ can perceive what is real. Logic is nothing more than a proper apprehension of truth. We, as sinners, aren't apprehending, thus are illogical. As Christ's, He is molding us in His image, thus we are becoming more logical. Again, logic is nothing more than the proper apprehension of truth. His truth.

Even truths acquired through direct revelation from God Himself are trusted in your mind because of logic (e.g. God is true. This revelation came from God. Therefore this revelation is true.).
For me, only what I've received from God. I believe 2+2=4 but it is only because that truth works in God's universe that I'm able to identify it as true, and always with Him as the veracity of the math.



We humans can make errors in our logic but that isn't a failing in logic.
I disagree. Failing to properly grasp truth is a failure in logic. It shows either a mistake, or the shortcoming of what that one can discover as true. While it is not necessarily a sin to not get math, it still affects our grades. A grade less than A is a failure at logic. It is only because we didn't fail more often than not, that we don't fail the class. Getting less than 65% is called 'failing' logic (math in this case).

In other words, errors of logic can be detected by a continued, steadfast, unyielding use of logic. The honest man is always on guard against error and in a relentless pursuit of the truth. Any attempt to undermine the veracity of logic is an attempt to clip your own wings in mid flight.

Resting in Him,
Clete
I disagree, John 15:5
 

Lon

Well-known member
Lon: Let me get this right. You are saying that if a relationship has constraints, then it is closed?
Yes 'limit' means closed/stopped. Wherever the end of the rope reaches, is completely knowable. Relationship both opens up what doesn't exist, but it also closes other doors. I completely know, everything I've ever created. There can't be an accident happening to my creation. It is all my work.

That doesn't make sense to me. Let's say there are physical barriers in the gutters so your ball cannot possibly pass it (and in any case, there is a floor, which is pretty much a barrier). But you can still bowl the ball anywhere within those limits. Nothing stops you choosing your line. That is not a closed system.
Which describes God (the bowlerama that is constant) and me the bowler, with what I can and can't do. The alley isn't going to see anything different and will know before I release the ball what is going to happen next. So, again, even the Open View is logically capable and seeing that the system is fully knowable.
If that's not what you mean and what you mean is fully closed, i.e. completely predictable, then this statement:
"The relationship between A and B is closed."
applies to both entities A and B, not just to entity B.
Sure, but where that is a constrain to you and I, it is not to God. Limited example: He can be at the play AND at the game. You and I are stuck with a limitation. For us, it is closed.

A system which consists solely of two objects orbiting each other according to the rules of Newtonian mechanics, is completely closed and predictable. A system consisting of three or more bodies orbiting one another in some configuration according to the rules of Newtonian mechanics is theoretically predictable and so it would still be a closed system, even if it was practically impossible to predict its state more than a few iterations forward.
But if you mean that God and his creation are in a relationship that is closed fully in this way, then you can't say that his creation is closed and that he himself isn't. It is the system that is either open or closed, not the members of the system.
In summary, I think you are labouring under a misapprehension. A closed system is one which is fully predictable because nothing extraneous to the system can affect it. A bowling ball running down an alley is not a closed system because it is affected by your choices, which are extraneous to that system.
If you were the bowling ball itself, you wouldn't be able to say 'I'm proud of what I am. I'm proud that I am now on my way to knocking down 10 skittles'. You have nothing whatsoever to be proud of. And if you have any feeling of self-worth at all, it can be nothing more than illusion, a mistake on your part, because your existence and your direction have nothing to do with you but only to do with the person who bowled you. You may even think that you are making the skittles fall down, and in a sense that is true. But your interpretation that it is you who are causing the skittles to fall over, is simply a misunderstanding on your part, because you are just following a direction that was allotted to you by the bowler.
Agree. He is the bowler , we are the clay, er bowling ball.
 

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
I've 'created.' Necessarily, I know everything about what I've made. Having done a buzzilion creations, God's knowledge would be absolute, even if He were merely omnicompetent as the OV says.


It is a prideful thing to say, but it is mutual.


Falsifiable, but it may help you to know, when I was your age, I thought so too. 1 Corinthians 14:2 and other verses were a wake-up call to me.


Then your Spiritual toolbox is bare. For you, there is no need to read scripture because if your logic is intact, then you'd never sin because it is illogical to do so. You've said the Word is logic. I embrace that point, but being a man that needs to be 'more' like Jesus, I now know that this also means that I am to become more logical as well. When I thought my logic was a pinnacle, I was in sad arrogant shape. I've left that behind. I see a huge difference between being in Christ that doesn't jive with the world's thinking about all logic nor what they view common sense. I am more intelligent as far as test results and IQ. That doesn't make me godly. In this sense, ONLY, those who are in Christ can perceive what is real. Logic is nothing more than a proper apprehension of truth. We, as sinners, aren't apprehending, thus are illogical. As Christ's, He is molding us in His image, thus we are becoming more logical. Again, logic is nothing more than the proper apprehension of truth. His truth.


For me, only what I've received from God. I believe 2+2=4 but it is only because that truth works in God's universe that I'm able to identify it as true, and always with Him as the veracity of the math.




I disagree. Failing to properly grasp truth is a failure in logic. It shows either a mistake, or the shortcoming of what that one can discover as true. While it is not necessarily a sin to not get math, it still affects our grades. A grade less than A is a failure at logic. It is only because we didn't fail more often than not, that we don't fail the class. Getting less than 65% is called 'failing' logic (math in this case).


I disagree, John 15:5

Lon,

Don't you get it? You don't get to disagree!

What process of thought did you come to that caused you to conclude that you disagree with the idea that it takes logic to detect errors in one's thought process?

That question answers itself, Lon! You used logic to say "I disagree." You therefore contradict yourself inside of a single sentence!

Further, you need to read my posts more carefully. I can't believe that you're mind doesn't work to the degree that you actually believe that, "Failing to properly grasp truth is a failure in logic."

It isn't a failure in logic, but rather a failure in one's use of it. And if it isn't that then perhaps there is a lack of pertinent information but in either case it is not a failure of logic itself that is to blame for a failure to grasp a truth. If it were then there would be no way to know anything.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Lon

Well-known member
Lon,

Don't you get it? You don't get to disagree!
Yup, have been there, Clete. It is wrong-headed. I know it 'looks' right-headed but such imperializes man (me) over God. That means, whatever I 'think' is right/was right, must be correctable. Does God use logical steps? In a way, but it is more than that: We are indwelled by the living God. He begins to steer us differently. Is it logic like the world uses? Sort of, but it supercedes it. For instance, scientists 'logically' think the world is made by evolution. While I can see some elements to building blocks, we think differently about creation specifically because God steers our approach to everything. For us, 'logic' demands that we understand the universe from Colossians 1:16-20 and Genesis 1. 1 John 3:1-3 says we will be like Him, when we see Him. That means something different to my logic as it is today, and your's as well. If you are not 'always' right, you are, in fact, illogical. We are ONLY as logical as our grasp of God allows and it is limited growth. We will not be like Him (and you have said He is logic, so being like Him would mean you couldn't be infallibly logical and it is not going to happen this side of glory). We are saved by grace, through faith. He is able to keep us, not vise-versa. Truly, that is the promise Christians must rest in. I'm pretty logical, but again, we are talking about grades and nobody gets an "A" until glory 1 John 3:2,3

What process of thought did you come to that caused you to conclude that you disagree with the idea that it takes logic to detect errors in one's thought process?
When my schizophrenic uncle, incapable of logic, asked me to pray for him. I realized that it didn't matter if I comprehend as well or better than another. It depends on Christ. He actuates all things. Grace certainly could reach my uncle. The thief on the cross simply asked Our Lord Jesus Christ to remember him in His kingdom.
That question answers itself, Lon! You used logic to say "I disagree." You therefore contradict yourself inside of a single sentence!
:nono: I used and relied on Him. I nor you are 'capable' of verifying a truth. In the Garden, man become aware of good AND evil. Evil is illogical. We became illogical as part of the Fall. Do we likewise have a knowledge of good? Yes, even the unbeliever. Is it verifiable or perfect? :nono: That's why science only provides hypotheses. The honest logician knows he/she may not have the definitive and, as well, realizes they are too limited to be able to actuate that truth. What does that mean? It means, the best they/we can do is say "this looks right" on our own. This is why truth is relative in our culture. Only God can actualize a truth because only He is conscience of all truth. In fact, your insistence that Christ is Logic ensures that He knows all things, as Peter also said. Knowing all things, as far as I understand what is logical, means the system is closed. An Open system wouldn't be logically knowable. It provides for chaos theory to believe otherwise. That may escape you.

Further, you need to read my posts more carefully. I can't believe that you're mind doesn't work to the degree that you actually believe that, "Failing to properly grasp truth is a failure in logic."
Well, I'd turn that around and say you need to read mine more carefully, but it is more than just that. Your brain works differently than a woman's. You'd likely suggest she isn't logical. This is true, but it is also blind to the limitation of self. It isn't exactly arrogance, but it is problematic to actually thinking logically. You are stuck in your own little world and only what you perceive as logical 'can' be logical. That means you are, in your own self-sufficiency, your own encyclopedia for logic. Once that happens, you can't be corrected because you are the standard of correct instead of God.

It isn't a failure in logic, but rather a failure in one's use of it. And if it isn't that then perhaps there is a lack of pertinent information but in either case it is not a failure of logic itself that is to blame for a failure to grasp a truth. If it were then there would be no way to know anything.

Resting in Him,
Clete
I think, then, perhaps what we are really doing is disagreeing over the definition of 'logic.'

Logic is simply what I use to ascertain truth. While I've been confident in my ability to ascertain reality, I've realized my ONLY solid base for objectifying reality is the Lord Jesus Christ John 15:5 Colossians 1:17 My uncle, without the facilities to apprehend reality on his own, asked me to pray for him that Christ would remember him. He wasn't logical, but he was resting in a reality he desired, but could not apprehend. Rather, that which/Who is Right and True, apprehended Him.

Humbly, in Him -Lon
 

patrick jane

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Quite a long discussion - When I hear "Big Picture", I think of the final end result of heaven. It's hard to imagine but I think we catch glimpses, ever so short. We will thirst no more, hunger no more, no sadness, no sin or death. Being with God and the Lord Jesus Christ, saints and angels; and FAMILY.
 
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Nihilo

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In philosophy, one challenges on the basis of premises, and in intelligent philosophy, on the basis of the rule of fundamentality of premises, and the only means of proof is by reference to the reality which we all apprehend in various ways...

The history of Christianity in the first few centuries was one of being ignored and being persecuted... The persecutions resulted in the martyring of Christians in a lot of pretty diabolical ways - I can describe some if you doubt me - but the very word martyr MEANS witness... The witness of the Christian Faith is not of the world we commonly apprehend, but is instead one of the world we do NOT commonly apprehend, which is apprehended by Revelation from God and the Faith which Christ Gave to His Apostles, which is the Christian Faith we see in the world to this day.

So the fundamental premise I am challenging you on is that the "PROOF" that you are insisting upon is a worldly proof, and the reality of the Christian Faith's God is not subject to such constrictions, but is instead the creator of those constrictions... Hence, the Christian proof is ad-hominum, and it is not one that you can match, which is martyrdom itself, in the Radiance of Divine Joy...

THIS proof, you see, you cannot match, and you flee from it, and scorn it to justify your flight, while retreating into logical worldly proofs... The Faith of Christ, you see, is SUPRA-LOGICAL, and works all manner of hidden things you cannot know which created and are sustaining the reality that you, in your fallen condition common to all mankind, are able to see. The eyes of the Faith are only secondarily physical, and are primarily noetic... The eyes you insist upon constraining us to are merely optical, you see, and noetic eyes are not so constrained...

So for us, you are wading with the toddlers in the shallow end of the constricted pool, while the ocean cannot be seen, whose very existence toddlers deny until they are entered into it at death...

I did not find Wittgenstein helpful at all, btw...

Arsenios
I'm not Catholic. Now what do you think about Wittgenstein?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Lon,

I feel like we're sort of hijacking the thread here a bit so this is going to be my last response on this topic for now.

This issue is so critical that it literally cannot be overstated. And since you seem sincere in your belief contrary to what I've been telling you, I'm going to do something that I would not normally do. I'm just going to post the whole text of a somewhat lengthy article on this exact topic. I'm going to post the whole text for two reasons. First of all because it covers this exact topic very thoroughly and explains very clearly why it is of paramount importance. Second because most here will be too lazy to read it and only those who aren't too lazy to read it deserve to benefit from it. Please read it! I just reread the whole thing. It's not as long as it looks.

Incidentally, it should be noted that I know nothing at all about Craig Hawkins' doctrine beyond what it described in the following essay. No endorsement of him or his teachings, other than what is written in the following essay, are implied. Not that he's all wet on other issues, I just simply don't know anything about what else he believes or teaches. So don't anyone go digging up what you think is dirt on him thinking it'll stick to me.

Enjoy...


The Nature & Necessity of Logic

by
Craig S. Hawkins


APOLOGETICS INFORMATION MINISTRY
Professor Craig S. Hawkins, President
P.O. Box 10375
Santa Ana, CA 92711-0375
(909) 393-6109
www.apologeticsinfo.org


"`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'"
- Mark 12:30

The Nature and Necessity of Logic

Today (as in the past) many depreciate or outright deny the importance or the relevance of logic to a number of issues, but of particular interest to this paper, in the areas ethics, metaphysics, and/or religion. This is true of most (if not all?) postmodernists, most (if not all) Buddhists, Hindus, New Agers, neopagans and other occultists, of religious and non-religious individuals alike, and unfortunately of many Christians as well. Many people flippantly talk as if they could do without logic, "take or leave it," as if it was optional.

While the depreciations or denunciations of logic vary in the range of topics that are allegedly exempt from logic, or the intensity in which logic is down-played or simply denied, the above individuals have in common the concept of limiting the applicability, extent, or scope of the jurisdiction of logic/reason.(1)

Thus, there are various understandings of just what the limits of logic are, nonetheless, these individuals all attempt to limit the domain of logic. This is the key concept.

Are these views viable? Can one "take or leave logic"? Is logic only applicable to certain topics? Is logic optional or true only for certain realms of inquiry?

I contend that epistemologically or otherwise these perspectives are inherently flawed. Theologically, philosophically, and practically these perspectives are incorrect, indeed, they are self-refuting. In this paper I will expound on what I believe are some of the many problems inherent to these perspectives. I will attempt to demonstrate that these views are incorrect, worse yet self-stultifying, and that logic or reason is undeniably true, unavoidable, and applicable to all coherent discussions. That is, one cannot not use logic (at least not so and engage in an intelligible discussion at the same time). Logic is a necessary precondition of all intelligible thinking.

My objections to Buddhists, Hindus, New Agers, neopagans and other occultists, Christians, and all others who depreciate or out-right deny the necessity of logic for coherent conversations is that their views are not only false, but self-contradictory because their logic-defying views are based or contingent on logic. That is, for their statements to significance or meaning, or to even formulate them, the individual(s) had to utilize logic in the first place, thus refuting or contradicting the very view they are trying to establish or prove.

Due to space consideration I cannot discuss all the important aspects of logic or reason relative to our topic. I will have to limit my discussion to some critical considerations. Thus, for example, unfortunately, I will not be able to apply the laws of logic in detail to various arguments or claims being advocated today in ethical, metaphysical, and religious arenas.

Hence, while there are numerous problems with the above mentioned perspectives, I will have to limit my discussion in this paper to the following central concerns.

Logic

Before we proceed any further, we should define the term logic. "Logic is the study of the methods and principles used to distinguish good (correct) from bad (incorrect) reasoning.(2)" It is the study of the laws or principles of thought or reason, that is not just mere thought or thinking per se, but of the type of thought or thinking we term reasoning. Irving Copi states that "The distinction between correct and incorrect reasoning is the central problem with which logic deals."(3) Norman Geisler and Ronald Brooks tell us that "Logic is the study of right reason or valid inferences and the attending fallacies, formal and informal" (emphasis in original).(4)

The Undeniableness of Logic

Logic is undeniable, unavoidable, self-evident, or self-explanatory. One cannot not use it. One has to use it to refute it. All such claims against logic are self-contradictory self-defeating, self-refuting, or self-stultifying.

Thus, for all of people's rhetoric against logic, one cannot not use logic. It is impossible to think or engage in any type of coherent dialogue and not use logic. This is because, among other reasons, the laws or principles of logic are what are termed first principles--first principles of epistemology. Logic is indispensable for at least five reasons. (While there is some overlap among the following five points, they are nonetheless numerated in this manner to help make explicit the nuances and implications of logic.)

First, the primary principles or laws of logic are first principles of epistemology. There is no getting "behind" or "around them." They are axiomatic or self-evident. That is, we cannot not use them (see points 2 and 3 below). Peter Angeles states, among other things, that first principles are "Statements (laws, reasons, rules) that are self-evident and/or fundamental to the explanation of a system and upon which the system depends for consistency and coherence."(5)

Second, the very distinction between true or false or applicable or not only exists or has meaning if logic is true or applicable. Without logic (e.g., the law of non-contradiction) there would be no such things or concepts as true or false. Thus, there could be no true or false statements in the first place, such as logic is not true or it is false that it is applicable to a given topic. This is because the law of (non-)contradiction "...itself draws the line between true and false. So we can't call it false without assuming that it is true."(6) The same holds true with the other laws of logic. As Geisler and Brooks tell us:

Logic is built on four undeniable laws. There is no "getting behind" these laws to explain them. They are self-evident and self-explanatory. There is also no way around them. In order to reject any of these statements, one must assume the very principle he seeks to deny. But if you must assume that something is true to say that it is false, you haven't got a very good case, have you?

For example, the law of non-contradiction (A is not non-A) says that no two contradictory statements can both be true at the same time and in the same sense. Now, if someone tried to deny this and said, "The law of non-contradiction is false," he would have a problem. Without the law of noncontradiction, there is no such thing as true or false, because this law itself draws the line between true and false. So we can't call it false without assuming that it is true. The same thing happens when someone tries to deny the other laws: the law of identity (A is A), the law of excluded middle (either A or non-A), and the law of rational inference (emphasis in original).(7)​

Third, furthermore, a statement's meaningfulness (let alone significance or truthfulness) depends upon logic. If logic is not true, or applicable to the topic at hand then the statement is meaningless. That is, a statement's very meaning or meaningfulness exists only because logic is true or applicable. Otherwise the statement could or would be both true and not true or applicable and not applicable at the same time and in the same sense, since it would no longer be true that statements cannot be both true and not true (false) in the same time and sense. Both are now true or applicable since a statement can be both true and not true (false) at the same time and in the same sense. Thus, one could just as well say that "logic is true or applicable to the topic at hand" in the same breath as the previous statement, or "I will see you Wednesday and I will not see you Wednesday," etc. Thus, to deny logic or state that logic is not true or applicable only has meaning if logic does apply to the original statement. But this refutes the original claim.

Thus, any statement or claim only has meaning, a fortiori significance or truthfulness, if and only if logic does apply or is true. Hence, the claim that "logic is not true or applicable" is meaningless unless logic is true, but in that case the original claim is false, indeed, self-defeating.

Fourth, to deny or try to disprove the need for, necessity of, or truth of logic one must first utilize it, thus disproving their original assertion. One has to use logic to try to disprove, refute, or even deny it. If one must use logic in the effort to refute it, then the argument is self-evidently not true. One has only proven its truthfulness or applicability (ironically in the very attempt to refute it).

To deny logic or say that it is false or not true or applicable to a certain topic entails the use of logic in the very assertion itself (thus, it is true or applicable). This is like a person who says, "I can not utter a word in English." But, they just did. They should either quit speaking English or retract the original statement. The original statement is false, indeed self-defeating. Further examples of these types of claims include:

1. "Logic is not applicable to this topic."
2. "This topic, view, or realm is `beyond' logic." The idea is that logic's reach simply does not extend to the topic.
3. "This is just a case of the Eastern versus Western or Aristotelian bias or perspective on logic." The idea is that one is insisting on a Western worldview perspective, while ignoring or to the detriment of an Eastern or occultic view.
4. "This is the mundane versus `spiritual' perspective."
5. "This is merely the emotions versus the realm of rationality or logic."
6. "This is the altered versus normal states of consciousness viewpoint."
7. "This is a case of this plane versus other planes or levels of reality or existence."
8. "This is only a case of this level versus other levels of meaning."
9. "Logic is not true."​

All these claims are based upon logic in the first place.

Thus, to deny logic or assert that logic is not true (i.e., false) or applicable is itself based upon logic. The statement or distinction itself is built or predicated upon logic. Logic had to be employed to formulate the assertion. The statement "logic does not apply" involves the distinction of "logic does not apply," versus "logic does apply." However, it is possible to make this distinction itself only because of the laws of logic. Therefore, logic is--must be--true or does apply. But, this is self-refuting or refutes the original claim.

Fifth, one cannot not use logic in the real world. Try driving to the grocery store while denying the validity of logic. (Indeed, what grocery store? The one that is and is not there?) One can not successfully cross the railroad tracks without it. Next time you're at a railroad crossing with an apparent train speeding down the line imagine thinking that the train is there and it is not there. Would you? No! Try this in the "real" world. (Why do Hindus and Christian Scientists look both ways before crossing the street?) Logic is necessary or indispensable in life. One literally can not live (long) without it!

Self-Refuting


All attempts to deny or refute logic fail. They are false (indeed, are meaningless or nonsensical), self-contradictory, or self-stultifying assertions.

Terms for a statement or proposition that does not fulfill or satisfy itself--its own criteria or requirements (of acceptability) include: self-defeating, self-refuting, self-stultifying, self-referential absurdity or self-referentially absurd. Examples of these type of statements include:

1. A person saying "I do and do not believe in logic" or "logic is and is not true" (at the same time and in the same sense).
2. "My brother is an only child."
3. "All the statements I make are false."
4. A person "saying I am and am not an atheist."
5. A person who claims that they "do and do not hold to postmodernism" or "do and do not believe that postmodernism is true."
6. A person who is and is not a New Ager or is and is not a neopagan.
7. A person saying "I am and am not a Christian."
8. A person saying "Jesus is and is not God" (the second person of the Trinity).​

Logic is the straitjacket of life for those who argue insanely or, at least mentally, refuse to live in the real world! One cannot even cross the street, let alone the metaphysical highway without using logic. Logic is indispensable--period.

The Four Primary Laws of Logic


Many talk as if they could do without logic. However, many people do not even know what logic is, or what are termed by some, the four primary laws or principles of logic or thought. Many people only know the five letter word logic, but again, not what it really means or the laws or principles behind it. Thus, we should at least briefly explain the four primary principles or laws of logic.

One of the primary principles of logic is the law of (non-) contradiction. Basically it states that no statement (proposition, assertion, etc.) can be both true and not true--false--(e.g., A can not be non-A) at the same time and in the same sense. For example, it can not both be true and not true (in the same time and sense) that a person is and is not a Christian. All such statements are false. It is a first principle (it is axiomatic or self-evident) of thought or epistemology. (Thus, one cannot not use it. To deny it is like saying "I cannot utter a word in English.") The distinction between true and false is based on this principle.

The second primary law of logic is the principle of excluded middle. The law of (non-)contradiction simply states that A cannot equal or be non-A (or p & non-p). But both could be "quip," that is, neither true or false--simply not both--but not necessarily true or false either. But excluded middle states A or non-A, that is, a proposition is either true or false--it must be one or the other (and not quip!). Thus, a proposition or statement must be true or false. (See, e.g., Matthew 12:30).

The third primary law of logic is called the law of identity. It states that A=A or that "if any statement is true, then it is true."(8) An example would be Christ is Christ and not non-Christ (e.g., the Christ of the Bible is not the "Christ" of the cults or the occult.

The fourth primary law of logic is the law of logical or rational inference. An example of this principle is: if A=B, and B=C, then A=C. It's importance can be seen relevant to all discursive or non-axiomatic knowledge or reasoning. For example, the word trinity is not found in the Bible, but the concept is found in the Bible (see, e.g., Deut. 6:4; Eph. 1:3; John 1:1; John20:28; Acts 5:3-4; and Mark 12:29-30).

These four primary laws of logic are vital--essential--to all coherent or intelligible discussions or arguments. As I hope is evident, one cannot--in any intelligent sense--not use them (e.g., even when trying to argue against the laws of logic).

God, the Bible, and Logic

The supreme example in the Bible of what to do or not to do (of course, other than things like claiming to be God) is Christ. Thus, (in the context of our discussion) if Jesus, God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, used logical argumentation to validate His claims or points, a fortiori, how much more so for us! Indeed, this is exactly what we see Jesus doing. For example, consider Matthew 12:24-30:

1. Argument from analogy (vv. 25-26)
2. The law of logical or rational inference (v. 26)
3. Reductio ad absurdum (vv. 25-26)
4. Argument from analogy (v. 27)
5. The law of logical or rational inference (vv. 28, 29)
6. Argument from analogy (v. 29)
7. The law of contradiction (v. 30)
8. The law of excluded middle (v. 30)​

Throughout His ministry and teachings Jesus consistently used logic to present and advance His claims.

We find the same method--the use of logic--used by His apostles (see, e.g., Paul in Acts 17:2-3, 11, 17, 22-31; Acts 18:4, 19; Acts 19:8-9; Acts 26:25; and 1 Timothy 6:20; or Apollos in Acts 18:27-28). Dialegomai is the Greek word used in the above passages. It means among other things to argue, dispute, or reason.

The Value of the God Given Mind

We are created in the imago Dei--the image of God. This includes, among other attributes, the ability to reason. This entails the value of evidence and reason. As Charles Hodge informs us:

If the contents of the Bible did not correspond with the truths which God has revealed in his external works and the constitution of our nature, it could not be received as coming from Him, for God cannot contradict himself. Nothing, therefore, can be more derogatory to the Bible than the assertion that its doctrines are contrary to reason. The assumption that reason and faith are incompatible; that we must become irrational in order to become believers is, however it may be intended, the language of infidelity; for faith in the irrational is of necessity itself irrational....We can believe only what we know, i.e., what we intelligently apprehend.(9)​

Uses of Logic/Reason

There are a number of ways logic/reason can be used or not be used (as the case may be). I want to quickly consider three options found among Christians.

The first is what is termed a ministerial use of reason. This is the use of logic/reason as a servant or "handmaid" to the Bible and theology. Logic/reason is not put on par with or above the Bible, but stands in a subordinate role to God's revelation. This is the role of reason that I am advocating.

The second type is termed a magisterial use of reason. This is the placing of logic/reason on par with or actually above the Bible. Here logic/reason (that of the individual or a group) is allegedly the final judge, arbitrator, or authority of truth. This is not the role of reason that I am advocating. This is an incorrect use--abuse--of reason.

The third use of reason (or more correctly non-use I should say) is the anti-intellectual approach. This is the position of depreciating or out-right denying the role of reason/logic in apologetics and other concerns of Christianity. Unfortunately, this is the view that many Christians, intentionally or not, advocate.

The Three Cs of Logic for the Christian

I believe that the only truly biblical option for the Christian is the ministerial use of reason mentioned above. I believe that this is true for at least three reasons. That is, we cannot comprehend, let alone confirm, let alone conform our thoughts and lives to God's revelation without the use of Logic.

First, if a person can not comprehend or apprehend the content of the Gospel, then certainly they can not understand it, and a fortiori they can not believe in it!

Illogical or self-contradictory statements and beliefs are incomprehensible in the sense that they are nonsensical. Nonsensical assertion are not to be believed, whether religious or "secular." They are to be seen and rejected for what they are--nonsense.

It follows therefore that reason and logic are necessary for intelligible and reasonable propositions, which are a necessary precondition for the communication of truth to individuals. Truth must be logical so as to be able to be presented to a person's mind as intelligible thoughts, so that they might be embraced or rejected. As Charles Hodge so precisely stated it:

In the first place, reason is necessarily presupposed in every revelation. Revelation is the communication of truth to the mind. But the communication of truth supposes the capacity to receive it. Revelation cannot be made to brutes or idiots. Truths, to be received as objects of faith, must be intellectually apprehended...The first and indispensable office of reason, therefore, in matters of faith, is the cognition, or intelligent apprehension of the truths proposed for our reception.(10)​

Second, logic is necessary for confirmation of the Gospel. That is, since God does not contradict Himself, or ask us to believe contradictions or that which is inherently self-contradictory (see e.g., 1 Tim. 6:20), revelations from Him will not contradict previously given revelations, or the sound reasoning processes necessary to even comprehend these revelations. Hodge informs us:

If the contents of the Bible did not correspond with the truths which God has revealed in his external works and the constitution of our nature, it could not be received as coming from Him, for God cannot contradict himself. Nothing, therefore, can be more derogatory to the Bible than the assertion that its doctrines are contrary to reason. The assumption that reason and faith are incompatible; that we must become irrational in order to become believers is, however it may be intended, the language of infidelity; for faith in the irrational is of necessity itself irrational....We can believe only what we know, i.e., what we intelligently apprehend.(11)​

Thus, in one sense, reason is accorded the purgative to judge the trustworthiness of an alleged revelation. That is, before an alleged revelation from God should be accepted, we need to first discern that it is in fact from Him. Again, Hodge has written definitively on the topic:

It is impossible that He should require us to believe what contradicts any of the laws of belief which He has impressed upon our nature [i.e., the laws of thought or logic(12)]...Faith includes an affirmation of the mind that a thing is true. But it is a contradiction to say that the mind can affirm that to be true which it sees cannot possibility be true. This would be to affirm and deny, to believe and disbelieve, at the same time....The ultimate ground of faith and knowledge is confidence in God. We can neither believe or know anything unless we confide in those laws of belief which God implanted in our nature. If we can be required to believe what contradicts those laws, then the foundations are broken up. All distinction between right and wrong, would disappear...and we should become the victims of every adroit deceiver, or minister of Satan, who, by lying wonders, should call upon us to believe a lie.(13)​

It should be evident that faith is inherently reasonable. Its very nature demands such.(14) Moreover, since faith in Christ is self-commitment to the truth, necessarily, its content or what is believed corresponds to reality, as well as is consistent or non-contradictory. Thus, it fulfills the requirements of the two primary truth tests (the correspondence and coherence theories of truth). Remember, we are told that we are saved because we believe the truth (see, e.g., John 18:37; 2 Th. 2:13), and that conversely those who will not believe the truth are lost (see e.g., 2 Th. 2:10-11).

Third, we are to conform our thoughts and lives to God's revelation. But we cannot do this without the use of logic. For example, we cannot say that "Christ is both God and not God" or that "we are and are not to sin."

Thus, logic is indispensable for the Christian.

God gave us a mind and He expects us to us it (Mark 12:29-31). It is not true that the mind is a terrible thing, "so waste it." I submit that if we are going to glorify God as Christians and in sharing the Gospel with others, we must not ignore or in an unscriptural manner down-play the importance of the mind in the preaching or defense of the Gospel. (This is in actuality a form of false humility or false spirituality, and should be denounced for what it is--unscriptural and dishonoring to God!)

Conclusion

In this relatively brief paper I believe that I have shown that it is impossible not to use logic. It is undeniable and hence unavoidable. The question is how well or poorly one will use it, not whether one will use logic.

For the Christian, I believe that the case is clear. For example, we are told in 1 Corinthians 10:31 "So whether you eat or drink [or think] or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God." We are told in 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 "For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ." I believe that reasoning well is one of those "weapons."

Logic/reason is undeniable, unavoidable, and indeed invaluable! We need to know and become competent in correctly using logic. We must train ourselves, our children, and the church to properly use logic. Moreover, it is an invaluable tool for dismantling non-Christian views. I believe that Christians are challenged and commanded to be competent--by the grace of God--in the proper use of logic.

"`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'"
- Mark 12:30

Endnotes

1. The terms logic and reason are used interchangeably in this paper.

2. Irving M. Copi, Introduction to Logic, 7th ed. (New York: Macmillan, 1986), 3.

3. Ibid., 5.

4. Norman L. Geisler and Ronald M Brooks, Come Let Us Reason: An Introduction to Logical Thinking (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1990), 12.

5. Peter A. Angeles, Dictionary of Philosophy (New York: Barnes and Noble, 1981), s.v. "first principles."

6. Geisler and Brooks, Come Let Us Reason, 16.

7. Ibid.

8. Copi, Introduction to Logic, 306.

9. Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, 3 vols., reprint (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1979), 1:83-84.

10. Hodge, Systematic Theology, 1:49.

11. Ibid., 3:83-84.

12. For an excellent discussion of the relationship of biblical truths and revelation to the laws of thought or logic, consult Norman Geisler's tape "The Relation of Logic and Christian Theology," (Dallas: Quest Tapes, n/d). Also consult R.C. Sproul, John Gerstner, and Arthur Lindsley, Classical Apologetics: A Rational Defense of the Christian Faith and a Critique of Presuppositional Apologetics (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984), 72-82.

13. Hodge, Systematic Theology, 1:51-53.

14. For a treatment of beliefs that are transrational or translogical, but not irrational or illogical, see 3:75-84 of Hodge's Systematic Theology.

Revision Date: 7/26/00
Copyright ©2000 Craig S. Hawkins. All Rights Reserved.
 
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Lon

Well-known member
Hi Clete. I think this an important discussion. I'd love to see it formally debated by two who are a bit more apt than you and I, and by that I mean I don't think we communicate as well to do it justice that I'd like to see. A one-on-one or Battle Royale would be excellent.
Lon,
I feel like we're sort of hijacking the thread here a bit so this is going to be my last response on this topic for now.
This issue is so critical that it literally cannot be overstated. And since you seem sincere in your belief contrary to what I've been telling you, I'm going to do something that I would not normally do. I'm just going to post the whole text of a somewhat lengthy article on this exact topic. I'm going to post the whole text for two reasons. First of all because it covers this exact topic very thoroughly and explains very clearly why it is of paramount importance. Second because most here will be too lazy to read it and only those who aren't too lazy to read it deserve to benefit from it. Please read it! I just reread the whole thing. It's not as long as it looks.
Incidentally, it should be noted that I know nothing at all about Craig Hawkins' doctrine beyond what it described in the following essay. No endorsement of him or his teachings, other than what is written in the following essay, are implied. Not that he's all wet on other issues, I just simply don't know anything about what else he believes or teaches. So don't anyone go digging up what you think is dirt on him thinking it'll stick to me.
Enjoy...
Thanks. A short history: I was on staff at a Christian school that imperialized this approach, so much so they adopted formal academic approaches that I disagreed with because to me, it worshipped man-made logic rather than God's logic. Because of this I disagree informally and in some respects formally, with those like Hawkins here. The gist is, this: I disagree with what most mean by logic. I have said that logic is the 'way' we apprehend truth, but it is also a description of the truth itself as 'logical.' My contention is mostly over 'the way we apprehend' truth rather than truth itself. Why? Specifically because we then prop up what we believe is a truth but that "isn't" logical. How do I know this? Because 1) it disagrees with scripture. 2) It disagrees with me, and while I don't prop up my own logical prowess, I rather believe Christ wants us to 'think' differently than the world. This too, is incredibly important and the main point in my 'logical' contention. Logic, imho, is best called 'life-application mathematics.' Logic apprehension, in simplification, is simply the mechanics of understanding a truth in the same way that mathematical function is used to ascertain numerical realities. Thanks for providing this, I've not debated you here, but I will address a rebuttal to Hawkins from here...
Spoiler

Craig S. Hawkins said:
The Nature & Necessity of Logic
by
Craig S. Hawkins

APOLOGETICS INFORMATION MINISTRY
Professor Craig S. Hawkins, President
P.O. Box 10375
Santa Ana, CA 92711-0375
(909) 393-6109
www.apologeticsinfo.org

"`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'"
- Mark 12:30
The Nature and Necessity of Logic
Today (as in the past) many depreciate or outright deny the importance or the relevance of logic to a number of issues, but of particular interest to this paper, in the areas ethics, metaphysics, and/or religion. This is true of most (if not all?) postmodernists, most (if not all) Buddhists, Hindus, New Agers, neopagans and other occultists, of religious and non-religious individuals alike, and unfortunately of many Christians as well. Many people flippantly talk as if they could do without logic, "take or leave it," as if it was optional.
While the depreciations or denunciations of logic vary in the range of topics that are allegedly exempt from logic, or the intensity in which logic is down-played or simply denied, the above individuals have in common the concept of limiting the applicability, extent, or scope of the jurisdiction of logic/reason.(1)
Thus, there are various understandings of just what the limits of logic are, nonetheless, these individuals all attempt to limit the domain of logic. This is the key concept.
Are these views viable? Can one "take or leave logic"? Is logic only applicable to certain topics? Is logic optional or true only for certain realms of inquiry?
I contend that epistemologically or otherwise these perspectives are inherently flawed. Theologically, philosophically, and practically these perspectives are incorrect, indeed, they are self-refuting. In this paper I will expound on what I believe are some of the many problems inherent to these perspectives. I will attempt to demonstrate that these views are incorrect, worse yet self-stultifying, and that logic or reason is undeniably true, unavoidable, and applicable to all coherent discussions. That is, one cannot not use logic (at least not so and engage in an intelligible discussion at the same time). Logic is a necessary precondition of all intelligible thinking.
My objections to Buddhists, Hindus, New Agers, neopagans and other occultists, Christians, and all others who depreciate or out-right deny the necessity of logic for coherent conversations is that their views are not only false, but self-contradictory because their logic-defying views are based or contingent on logic. That is, for their statements to significance or meaning, or to even formulate them, the individual(s) had to utilize logic in the first place, thus refuting or contradicting the very view they are trying to establish or prove.
Again, and actually agreeing you you, Clete, and against Hawkins: Only God is logical (always right, always true).
Craig S. Hawkins said:
Due to space consideration I cannot discuss all the important aspects of logic or reason relative to our topic. I will have to limit my discussion to some critical considerations. Thus, for example, unfortunately, I will not be able to apply the laws of logic in detail to various arguments or claims being advocated today in ethical, metaphysical, and religious arenas.
Hence, while there are numerous problems with the above mentioned perspectives, I will have to limit my discussion in this paper to the following central concerns.
Logic
Before we proceed any further, we should define the term logic. "Logic is the study of the methods and principles used to distinguish good (correct) from bad (incorrect) reasoning.(2)" It is the study of the laws or principles of thought or reason, that is not just mere thought or thinking per se, but of the type of thought or thinking we term reasoning. Irving Copi states that "The distinction between correct and incorrect reasoning is the central problem with which logic deals."(3) Norman Geisler and Ronald Brooks tell us that "Logic is the study of right reason or valid inferences and the attending fallacies, formal and informal" (emphasis in original).(4)
While we all can do math, we all have missed problems. That means, necessarily, we cannot be the ones who assert what is mathematically correct all the time. As I said, logic is verbal mathematics. It is the way we quantify ideas. When then are 'mathematical' but not the standard of math. I most often find that one isn't comprehending the objection when they write a paper like this. In teaching there is a difference between rote didactic and guided learning. One seeks to have the student led to truth. It is a better way at getting students to right answers because they internalize and value what they are learning rather than being 'told' and memorizing the answer that they may or may not comprehend.
Craig S. Hawkins said:
The Undeniableness of Logic
Logic is undeniable, unavoidable, self-evident, or self-explanatory. One cannot not use it. One has to use it to refute it. All such claims against logic are self-contradictory self-defeating, self-refuting, or self-stultifying.
This isn't true, because here Hawkins is talking about 'apprehension' and it can be different from individual to individual.
Example: As a math teacher, I instruct students to use 4 cubes and separate them into two piles. Some students, will make a pile of one and another of three. Some will make two and two. I then ask them to write a mathematical equation for what they are observing.
First of all, the kids who only have one in a pile, I may choose to correct. It is generally not a pile to have one by itself, so any 1-3 combination may be expressed mathematically wrong. Note that they are still being 'mathematical' but mathematics cannot solve the problem for them. Similarly, not all life answers can be solved logically because the problem is that logic (the process and rules for thinking and apprehending truth) may not contain the necessary information. In this case, revelation isn't logically attainable. While 'helicopters' might be what locusts mean in Revelation, it isn't the by any necessity the answer. In fact, I have this knowledge of locusts and I cannot have this knowledge logically. That is, I have no reasoned way for apprehending what I know. Why then do I say I 'know' it? Because God, who is the actuator of all truth, had John the Apostle write it down. So, I have this knowledge of something and yet, no logical way of attaining this knowledge other than as revelation. It makes no sense to me, but I've no doubt as to it being important, and from God.
Craig S. Hawkins said:
Thus, for all of people's rhetoric against logic, one cannot not use logic.
That isn't the disagreement, but rather it's place in all things. It is not the only way I know things. As stated earlier, you can be dictated a truth, without grasping why it is true, and you can 'learn' (logically apprehend) a truth. Both are valid forms of grasping what is true. I cannot, however, logically tell you why we will be like Jesus when we see Him face to face (1 John 3:2).
Craig S. Hawkins said:
It is impossible to think or engage in any type of coherent dialogue and not use logic. This is because, among other reasons, the laws or principles of logic are what are termed first principles--first principles of epistemology. Logic is indispensable for at least five reasons. (While there is some overlap among the following five points, they are nonetheless numerated in this manner to help make explicit the nuances and implications of logic.)
I disagree. "Because I said so" is authority behind believing/apprehending something also. I'm not sure all the ways we apprehend truth, but Logic isn't the only one. Now he may suggest that we yet employ logic, and I agree, but most importantly, it is the way we apprehended that truth. In other words, we interact with truth logically, but may not always apprehend it that way. So, Logic has its limitations on what it can and cannot actuate. I am not against logic, I am simply saying 'my/your way of apprehending' (Logic: pattern for apprehension) an idea may 1) be wrong and 2) apprehend the wrong thing, yet we'd think we were right and the blame would be against what we believed logical.
Craig S. Hawkins said:
First, the primary principles or laws of logic are first principles of epistemology. There is no getting "behind" or "around them." They are axiomatic or self-evident. That is, we cannot not use them (see points 2 and 3 below). Peter Angeles states, among other things, that first principles are "Statements (laws, reasons, rules) that are self-evident and/or fundamental to the explanation of a system and upon which the system depends for consistency and coherence."(5)
And I believe I've shown him incorrect here. He is 'generally' right but the exceptions are important.
Craig S. Hawkins said:
Second, the very distinction between true or false or applicable or not only exists or has meaning if logic is true or applicable. Without logic (e.g., the law of non-contradiction) there would be no such things or concepts as true or false. Thus, there could be no true or false statements in the first place, such as logic is not true or it is false that it is applicable to a given topic. This is because the law of (non-)contradiction "...itself draws the line between true and false. So we can't call it false without assuming that it is true."(6) The same holds true with the other laws of logic.
Exactly why truth is relative in this day and age. God necessarily is truth without our finite ability grasp Him in logic. He is beyond the realms of this universe, so beyond math and beyond the way we grasp what is logical. How else could God NOT think like we think, as He says? It wouldn't be 'logically' possible (and it isn't, thus expresses the limitation of math and logic).
Craig S. Hawkins said:
As Geisler and Brooks tell us:
Logic is built on four undeniable laws. There is no "getting behind" these laws to explain them. They are self-evident and self-explanatory. There is also no way around them. In order to reject any of these statements, one must assume the very principle he seeks to deny. But if you must assume that something is true to say that it is false, you haven't got a very good case, have you?
Again, logic allows us to ascertain a lot of truth, just not all of it. We aren't arguing against math or against logic in and of itself, we are arguing regarding its parameters and apprehension. For instance, tell a computer to extrapolate exponentially for a thousand years an equation that doubles as it progresses and it 'cannot' tell you what the number will be today, nor could it or we comprehend it (it is too large). Now we may say the answer is logical, but we say we cannot logically apprehend it or express it.
Craig S. Hawkins said:
For example, the law of non-contradiction (A is not non-A) says that no two contradictory statements can both be true at the same time and in the same sense. Now, if someone tried to deny this and said, "The law of non-contradiction is false," he would have a problem. Without the law of noncontradiction, there is no such thing as true or false, because this law itself draws the line between true and false. So we can't call it false without assuming that it is true. The same thing happens when someone tries to deny the other laws: the law of identity (A is A), the law of excluded middle (either A or non-A), and the law of rational inference (emphasis in original).(7)
This expresses, however, our use of logic having parameters/limitations, not that the issues themselves don't have answers. For instance: Noah's ark couldn't possibly - logically - numerically; have contained all the animals (law of noncontradiction right?). No numerical or logical answer can explain an impossibility. I logically/numerically cannot tell you why I believe Noah's ark existed. My faith is logical/rational, but my answer to this question is based on other truths for my accepting it. I cannot logically tell you why Noah's ark is possible, just logically why it exists. Logic, therefore, has limitations of what it can express. I am not anti-logic. I am just against saying it is the only we apprehend truth.
Craig S. Hawkins said:
Third, furthermore, a statement's meaningfulness (let alone significance or truthfulness) depends upon logic. If logic is not true, or applicable to the topic at hand then the statement is meaningless. That is, a statement's very meaning or meaningfulness exists only because logic is true or applicable. Otherwise the statement could or would be both true and not true or applicable and not applicable at the same time and in the same sense, since it would no longer be true that statements cannot be both true and not true (false) in the same time and sense. Both are now true or applicable since a statement can be both true and not true (false) at the same time and in the same sense. Thus, one could just as well say that "logic is true or applicable to the topic at hand" in the same breath as the previous statement, or "I will see you Wednesday and I will not see you Wednesday," etc. Thus, to deny logic or state that logic is not true or applicable only has meaning if logic does apply to the original statement. But this refutes the original claim.
Not true. I can value something simply because God values it, without apprehending logically, what is inherent to its value.
Craig S. Hawkins said:
Thus, any statement or claim only has meaning, a fortiori significance or truthfulness, if and only if logic does apply or is true. Hence, the claim that "logic is not true or applicable" is meaningless unless logic is true, but in that case the original claim is false, indeed, self-defeating.
Again, we aren't denying the use of logic regarding any particular truth, we are denying that logic is the only employ for apprehending the truth in the first place OR that it can give a sufficient answer why a thing is true. "It is true because God said it is true" does not allow for the logical apprehension of said truth.
Craig S. Hawkins said:
Fourth, to deny or try to disprove the need for, necessity of, or truth of logic one must first utilize it, thus disproving their original assertion. One has to use logic to try to disprove, refute, or even deny it. If one must use logic in the effort to refute it, then the argument is self-evidently not true. One has only proven its truthfulness or applicability (ironically in the very attempt to refute it).
We are not denying logic as an employment. We are arguing that it is the sole means for apprehension or discussion. I'm going to quit interjecting as much here, because I think one can use my objections and examples to make sense of both agreements and disagreements wit the rest of Hawkins' paper.
Craig S. Hawkins said:
To deny logic or say that it is false or not true or applicable to a certain topic entails the use of logic in the very assertion itself (thus, it is true or applicable). This is like a person who says, "I can not utter a word in English." But, they just did. They should either quit speaking English or retract the original statement. The original statement is false, indeed self-defeating. Further examples of these types of claims include:
1. "Logic is not applicable to this topic."
2. "This topic, view, or realm is `beyond' logic." The idea is that logic's reach simply does not extend to the topic.
3. "This is just a case of the Eastern versus Western or Aristotelian bias or perspective on logic." The idea is that one is insisting on a Western worldview perspective, while ignoring or to the detriment of an Eastern or occultic view.
4. "This is the mundane versus `spiritual' perspective."
5. "This is merely the emotions versus the realm of rationality or logic."
6. "This is the altered versus normal states of consciousness viewpoint."
7. "This is a case of this plane versus other planes or levels of reality or existence."
8. "This is only a case of this level versus other levels of meaning."
9. "Logic is not true."
All these claims are based upon logic in the first place.
Thus, to deny logic or assert that logic is not true (i.e., false) or applicable is itself based upon logic. The statement or distinction itself is built or predicated upon logic. Logic had to be employed to formulate the assertion. The statement "logic does not apply" involves the distinction of "logic does not apply," versus "logic does apply." However, it is possible to make this distinction itself only because of the laws of logic. Therefore, logic is--must be--true or does apply. But, this is self-refuting or refutes the original claim.
Fifth, one cannot not use logic in the real world. Try driving to the grocery store while denying the validity of logic. (Indeed, what grocery store? The one that is and is not there?) One can not successfully cross the railroad tracks without it. Next time you're at a railroad crossing with an apparent train speeding down the line imagine thinking that the train is there and it is not there. Would you? No! Try this in the "real" world. (Why do Hindus and Christian Scientists look both ways before crossing the street?) Logic is necessary or indispensable in life. One literally can not live (long) without it!
Self-Refuting
All attempts to deny or refute logic fail. They are false (indeed, are meaningless or nonsensical), self-contradictory, or self-stultifying assertions.
Terms for a statement or proposition that does not fulfill or satisfy itself--its own criteria or requirements (of acceptability) include: self-defeating, self-refuting, self-stultifying, self-referential absurdity or self-referentially absurd. Examples of these type of statements include:
1. A person saying "I do and do not believe in logic" or "logic is and is not true" (at the same time and in the same sense).
2. "My brother is an only child."
3. "All the statements I make are false."
4. A person "saying I am and am not an atheist."
5. A person who claims that they "do and do not hold to postmodernism" or "do and do not believe that postmodernism is true."
6. A person who is and is not a New Ager or is and is not a neopagan.
7. A person saying "I am and am not a Christian."
8. A person saying "Jesus is and is not God" (the second person of the Trinity).
Logic is the straitjacket of life for those who argue insanely or, at least mentally, refuse to live in the real world! One cannot even cross the street, let alone the metaphysical highway without using logic. Logic is indispensable--period.
Quick comment: Not for my schizophrenic uncle. Question: Does he have to be 'cogent' (logical) to be saved????
Craig S. Hawkins said:
The Four Primary Laws of Logic
Many talk as if they could do without logic. However, many people do not even know what logic is, or what are termed by some, the four primary laws or principles of logic or thought. Many people only know the five letter word logic, but again, not what it really means or the laws or principles behind it. Thus, we should at least briefly explain the four primary principles or laws of logic.
One of the primary principles of logic is the law of (non-) contradiction. Basically it states that no statement (proposition, assertion, etc.) can be both true and not true--false--(e.g., A can not be non-A) at the same time and in the same sense. For example, it can not both be true and not true (in the same time and sense) that a person is and is not a Christian. All such statements are false. It is a first principle (it is axiomatic or self-evident) of thought or epistemology. (Thus, one cannot not use it. To deny it is like saying "I cannot utter a word in English.") The distinction between true and false is based on this principle.
Perspective is important, however. For instance: You have two apples in one hand, and two in the other. How many do you have?
I will accept both "4" and "None" for correct answers. Logically, both can exist beside the other. Necessarily, I don't think Hawkins is being entirely logical, depending on the parameters of the truth he is trying to express. Sometimes, simply saying 'logic' conveys only a strict sense of apprehension rules where both or either "4" or "none" are the better answer. Logic, in this case, doesn't give the only answer and only direction rather than logic, can give the right answer. IOW, the redirection is the cause of the correct answer this time. This is why I see God as the only actuator of truth and reality. We may come up with laws that help us apprehend what we are seeing, and do so consistently, but we have to be careful that we aren't imperializing our system over God, especially where our system isn't capable of giving reason for a direction from God.
Craig S. Hawkins said:
The second primary law of logic is the principle of excluded middle. The law of (non-)contradiction simply states that A cannot equal or be non-A (or p & non-p). But both could be "quip," that is, neither true or false--simply not both--but not necessarily true or false either. But excluded middle states A or non-A, that is, a proposition is either true or false--it must be one or the other (and not quip!). Thus, a proposition or statement must be true or false. (See, e.g., Matthew 12:30).
The third primary law of logic is called the law of identity. It states that A=A or that "if any statement is true, then it is true."(8) An example would be Christ is Christ and not non-Christ (e.g., the Christ of the Bible is not the "Christ" of the cults or the occult.
The fourth primary law of logic is the law of logical or rational inference. An example of this principle is: if A=B, and B=C, then A=C. It's importance can be seen relevant to all discursive or non-axiomatic knowledge or reasoning. For example, the word trinity is not found in the Bible, but the concept is found in the Bible (see, e.g., Deut. 6:4; Eph. 1:3; John 1:1; John20:28; Acts 5:3-4; and Mark 12:29-30).
These four primary laws of logic are vital--essential--to all coherent or intelligible discussions or arguments. As I hope is evident, one cannot--in any intelligent sense--not use them (e.g., even when trying to argue against the laws of logic).
God, the Bible, and Logic
The supreme example in the Bible of what to do or not to do (of course, other than things like claiming to be God) is Christ. Thus, (in the context of our discussion) if Jesus, God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, used logical argumentation to validate His claims or points, a fortiori, how much more so for us! Indeed, this is exactly what we see Jesus doing. For example, consider Matthew 12:24-30:
1. Argument from analogy (vv. 25-26)
2. The law of logical or rational inference (v. 26)
3. Reductio ad absurdum (vv. 25-26)
4. Argument from analogy (v. 27)
5. The law of logical or rational inference (vv. 28, 29)
6. Argument from analogy (v. 29)
7. The law of contradiction (v. 30)
8. The law of excluded middle (v. 30)
Throughout His ministry and teachings Jesus consistently used logic to present and advance His claims.
We find the same method--the use of logic--used by His apostles (see, e.g., Paul in Acts 17:2-3, 11, 17, 22-31; Acts 18:4, 19; Acts 19:8-9; Acts 26:25; and 1 Timothy 6:20; or Apollos in Acts 18:27-28). Dialegomai is the Greek word used in the above passages. It means among other things to argue, dispute, or reason.
The Value of the God Given Mind
We are created in the imago Dei--the image of God. This includes, among other attributes, the ability to reason. This entails the value of evidence and reason. As Charles Hodge informs us:
If the contents of the Bible did not correspond with the truths which God has revealed in his external works and the constitution of our nature, it could not be received as coming from Him, for God cannot contradict himself. Nothing, therefore, can be more derogatory to the Bible than the assertion that its doctrines are contrary to reason. The assumption that reason and faith are incompatible; that we must become irrational in order to become believers is, however it may be intended, the language of infidelity; for faith in the irrational is of necessity itself irrational....We can believe only what we know, i.e., what we intelligently apprehend.(9)
Uses of Logic/Reason
There are a number of ways logic/reason can be used or not be used (as the case may be). I want to quickly consider three options found among Christians.
Uh oh :think: "Not used?" I think he's just hurt his whole paper!
Craig S. Hawkins said:
The first is what is termed a ministerial use of reason. This is the use of logic/reason as a servant or "handmaid" to the Bible and theology. Logic/reason is not put on par with or above the Bible, but stands in a subordinate role to God's revelation. This is the role of reason that I am advocating.
The second type is termed a magisterial use of reason. This is the placing of logic/reason on par with or actually above the Bible. Here logic/reason (that of the individual or a group) is allegedly the final judge, arbitrator, or authority of truth. This is not the role of reason that I am advocating. This is an incorrect use--abuse--of reason.
The third use of reason (or more correctly non-use I should say) is the anti-intellectual approach. This is the position of depreciating or out-right denying the role of reason/logic in apologetics and other concerns of Christianity. Unfortunately, this is the view that many Christians, intentionally or not, advocate.
The Three Cs of Logic for the Christian
I believe that the only truly biblical option for the Christian is the ministerial use of reason mentioned above. I believe that this is true for at least three reasons. That is, we cannot comprehend, let alone confirm, let alone conform our thoughts and lives to God's revelation without the use of Logic.
First, if a person can not comprehend or apprehend the content of the Gospel, then certainly they can not understand it, and a fortiori they can not believe in it!
Illogical or self-contradictory statements and beliefs are incomprehensible in the sense that they are nonsensical. Nonsensical assertion are not to be believed, whether religious or "secular." They are to be seen and rejected for what they are--nonsense.
It follows therefore that reason and logic are necessary for intelligible and reasonable propositions, which are a necessary precondition for the communication of truth to individuals. Truth must be logical so as to be able to be presented to a person's mind as intelligible thoughts, so that they might be embraced or rejected. As Charles Hodge so precisely stated it:
In the first place, reason is necessarily presupposed in every revelation. Revelation is the communication of truth to the mind. But the communication of truth supposes the capacity to receive it. Revelation cannot be made to brutes or idiots. Truths, to be received as objects of faith, must be intellectually apprehended...The first and indispensable office of reason, therefore, in matters of faith, is the cognition, or intelligent apprehension of the truths proposed for our reception.(10)
Second, logic is necessary for confirmation of the Gospel. That is, since God does not contradict Himself, or ask us to believe contradictions or that which is inherently self-contradictory (see e.g., 1 Tim. 6:20), revelations from Him will not contradict previously given revelations, or the sound reasoning processes necessary to even comprehend these revelations. Hodge informs us:
If the contents of the Bible did not correspond with the truths which God has revealed in his external works and the constitution of our nature, it could not be received as coming from Him, for God cannot contradict himself. Nothing, therefore, can be more derogatory to the Bible than the assertion that its doctrines are contrary to reason. The assumption that reason and faith are incompatible; that we must become irrational in order to become believers is, however it may be intended, the language of infidelity; for faith in the irrational is of necessity itself irrational....We can believe only what we know, i.e., what we intelligently apprehend.(11)
Thus, in one sense, reason is accorded the purgative to judge the trustworthiness of an alleged revelation. That is, before an alleged revelation from God should be accepted, we need to first discern that it is in fact from Him. Again, Hodge has written definitively on the topic:
It is impossible that He should require us to believe what contradicts any of the laws of belief which He has impressed upon our nature [i.e., the laws of thought or logic(12)]...Faith includes an affirmation of the mind that a thing is true. But it is a contradiction to say that the mind can affirm that to be true which it sees cannot possibility be true. This would be to affirm and deny, to believe and disbelieve, at the same time....The ultimate ground of faith and knowledge is confidence in God. We can neither believe or know anything unless we confide in those laws of belief which God implanted in our nature. If we can be required to believe what contradicts those laws, then the foundations are broken up. All distinction between right and wrong, would disappear...and we should become the victims of every adroit deceiver, or minister of Satan, who, by lying wonders, should call upon us to believe a lie.(13)
It should be evident that faith is inherently reasonable. Its very nature demands such.(14) Moreover, since faith in Christ is self-commitment to the truth, necessarily, its content or what is believed corresponds to reality, as well as is consistent or non-contradictory. Thus, it fulfills the requirements of the two primary truth tests (the correspondence and coherence theories of truth). Remember, we are told that we are saved because we believe the truth (see, e.g., John 18:37; 2 Th. 2:13), and that conversely those who will not believe the truth are lost (see e.g., 2 Th. 2:10-11).
Third, we are to conform our thoughts and lives to God's revelation. But we cannot do this without the use of logic. For example, we cannot say that "Christ is both God and not God" or that "we are and are not to sin."
Thus, logic is indispensable for the Christian.
God gave us a mind and He expects us to us it (Mark 12:29-31). It is not true that the mind is a terrible thing, "so waste it." I submit that if we are going to glorify God as Christians and in sharing the Gospel with others, we must not ignore or in an unscriptural manner down-play the importance of the mind in the preaching or defense of the Gospel. (This is in actuality a form of false humility or false spirituality, and should be denounced for what it is--unscriptural and dishonoring to God!)
Conclusion
In this relatively brief paper I believe that I have shown that it is impossible not to use logic. It is undeniable and hence unavoidable. The question is how well or poorly one will use it, not whether one will use logic.
For the Christian, I believe that the case is clear. For example, we are told in 1 Corinthians 10:31 "So whether you eat or drink [or think] or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God." We are told in 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 "For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ." I believe that reasoning well is one of those "weapons."
Logic/reason is undeniable, unavoidable, and indeed invaluable! We need to know and become competent in correctly using logic. We must train ourselves, our children, and the church to properly use logic. Moreover, it is an invaluable tool for dismantling non-Christian views. I believe that Christians are challenged and commanded to be competent--by the grace of God--in the proper use of logic.
"`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'"
- Mark 12:30
Endnotes
1. The terms logic and reason are used interchangeably in this paper.
2. Irving M. Copi, Introduction to Logic, 7th ed. (New York: Macmillan, 1986), 3.
3. Ibid., 5.
4. Norman L. Geisler and Ronald M Brooks, Come Let Us Reason: An Introduction to Logical Thinking (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1990), 12.
5. Peter A. Angeles, Dictionary of Philosophy (New York: Barnes and Noble, 1981), s.v. "first principles."
6. Geisler and Brooks, Come Let Us Reason, 16.
7. Ibid.
8. Copi, Introduction to Logic, 306.
9. Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, 3 vols., reprint (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1979), 1:83-84.
10. Hodge, Systematic Theology, 1:49.
11. Ibid., 3:83-84.
12. For an excellent discussion of the relationship of biblical truths and revelation to the laws of thought or logic, consult Norman Geisler's tape "The Relation of Logic and Christian Theology," (Dallas: Quest Tapes, n/d). Also consult R.C. Sproul, John Gerstner, and Arthur Lindsley, Classical Apologetics: A Rational Defense of the Christian Faith and a Critique of Presuppositional Apologetics (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984), 72-82.
13. Hodge, Systematic Theology, 1:51-53.
14. For a treatment of beliefs that are transrational or translogical, but not irrational or illogical, see 3:75-84 of Hodge's Systematic Theology.
Revision Date: 7/26/00
Copyright ©2000 Craig S. Hawkins. All Rights Reserved.
Craig S. Hawkins said:
A long article to be sure. I generally think when we are arguing about what is logical, it is rather against another's employment.
My first analogy was about separating 4 cubes and writing a mathematical expression. The ensuing class project will have 2 or 4 as the answer. The kids could argue which is the right answer and both are being logical. Both answers are 100% Correct and are graded that way in guided math. The problem, again, is that logic doesn't give the definitive answer when both 2 and 4 are the correct answers. We'd say that logic couldn't be contradictory. In a way, that's correct, but Hawkins' grasp and appreciation for logic says that if it is contradictory, both can't be true. It is, however. It isn't the 'answer' that math is apprehending rightly here. It is the values of 2, 2, and 4 (or with variations of 1).

Sometimes we can logically figure out the difference between correct answers but as in the case of Revelation, we know there is a multi-headed dragon. We do not apprehend it logically, however. We can employ logic to hold on to the concept, but we've no way to figure it out and I don't believe God gave it to us for that specific reason. One who is thinking logical may insist it is a symbol for governments, or spiritual principalities, or... I don't think that's a logical given. I do agree my saying that is logical but Hawkins doesn't seem to get the limitation of logic in this discussion. It doesn't apply to the subject matter but indirectly.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
I'm not Catholic.

Then there is hope!

Now what do you think about Wittgenstein?

I don't think about Wittgenstein...

My major was in the Ancient Philosophers, especially Aristotle, and the Theory of Universals found in His Metaphysics, and their contrast with that found in Ayn Rand...

I simply read the quote provided and responded that it was not helpful...

Expanding on that, I found it straited in its own technicalities, and not offered commonsensically, but as a syllogistic and neo-Scholastic presentation of technical philosophic jargon...

Arsenios
 

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
Then there is hope!



I don't think about Wittgenstein...

My major was in the Ancient Philosophers, especially Aristotle, and the Theory of Universals found in His Metaphysics, and their contrast with that found in Ayn Rand...

I simply read the quote provided and responded that it was not helpful...

Expanding on that, I found it straited in its own technicalities, and not offered commonsensically, but as a syllogistic and neo-Scholastic presentation of technical philosophic jargon...

Arsenios
Then you probably read it too closely. He employed all of that to show, particularly the philosopher, that philosophy as a discipline is dead, and he proved that it is only a vast game where words are the gamepieces. His thoughts at this time on natural science is actually a violation of everything else that he says in this work, IMO. He's walking a really long and high tightrope, and he does fall off once or twice, but otherwise it is a very masterful effort.
 
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