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  • Theology Club: Open View theism and Romans 8:28

    For the sake of the argument concerning predestination and the thread, how do open theists interpret this passage that states being foreknown and states predestined:

    Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

    How does open theism defined what is meant by foreknowledge and predestination?
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  • #2
    A4T It seemed like this was a new topic that needed it's own thread.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Knight View Post
      A4T It seemed like this was a new topic that needed it's own thread.
      Thanks! I just thought that getting this defined will help in understanding the pov of the other threads opening.
      sigpic

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
        For the sake of the argument concerning predestination and the thread, how do open theists interpret this passage that states being foreknown and states predestined:

        Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

        How does open theism defined what is meant by foreknowledge and predestination?
        When approaching scripture, we need to be careful of not getting locked into 'cafeteria Christianity'--picking out what we like and leaving off what we don't like. We need to weigh these Scriptures against the back drop of what the rest of the Bible says in order to understand them fully.

        Do these scriptures require us to believe that God has completely laid out our future for us-- Or can we mess things up?
        2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
        But does everyone come to repentance? No. We have people on this board that reject God and disparage His name.

        June is Gay Pride Month.Tolerance and diversity? ☞ More like tolerate perversity.☠

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Inzl Kett View Post
          When approaching scripture, we need to be careful of not getting locked into 'cafeteria Christianity'--picking out what we like and leaving off what we don't like. We need to weigh these Scriptures against the back drop of what the rest of the Bible says in order to understand them fully.

          Do these scriptures require us to believe that God has completely laid out our future for us-- Or can we mess things up?
          2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
          But does everyone come to repentance? No. We have people on this board that reject God and disparage His name.
          Thanks, I understand that in the context of that verse, but it still leaves this question:

          How do open theists interpret what is meant by the terms foreknowledge and predestination and predestined in scripture?
          sigpic

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
            Thanks, I understand that in the context of that verse, but it still leaves this question:

            How do open theists interpret what is meant by the terms foreknowledge and predestination and predestined in scripture?
            God understands human nature and the bent of the human heart. Sometimes we can mess up so much or please God that He will give us an extra push in the direction we have chosen.

            God does also have a plan where He plans to redeem creation and people for ever from the power of death and the grave. Who accepts that redemption is a matter of free will. People are not robots.

            I'll let Chickenman or one of the other posters who know their Greek better actually deal with the Greek translations of the words.

            My view is that the nature of God is best understood by reading the scripture as a whole. The Open model cuts closer to an accurate picture than either Calvinism or Arminism.

            June is Gay Pride Month.Tolerance and diversity? ☞ More like tolerate perversity.☠

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
              Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

              How does open theism defined what is meant by foreknowledge and predestination?
              Those He foreknew are the Body of Christ. Corporately not individually. It's really no different than God's elect (I.e. Israel). God's chosen people are Israel. Not individual people, but corporate Israel. And isn't it interesting that most of God's chosen people rejected Him and ended up in Hell? Why would that be if God chose individuals as opposed to corporate Israel?

              Therefore in Romans those who He foreknew and predestined is a description of the corporate Body of Christ.

              One final and tortured example would be as follows....

              If United Airlines stated... "Anyone who shows up at the United Airlines ticket gate tomorrow between 1PM and 3PM will get a free airplane ticket to anywhere in the continental US."

              United Airlines has in effect predestined that anyone who shows up in that time frame will get the free ticket. They don't know who the individuals will be but they know that at the end of the day there will be a group of people with free airline tickets.

              Corporate vs. individual election.
              Last edited by Knight; August 23, 2012, 06:07 AM.
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              • #8
                And Knight beat me to it.

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                • #9
                  Excellent explanation.

                  June is Gay Pride Month.Tolerance and diversity? ☞ More like tolerate perversity.☠

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Knight View Post
                    Those He foreknew are the Body of Christ. Corporately not individually. It's really no different than God's elect (I.e. Israel). God's chosen people are Israel. Not individual people, but corporate Israel. And isn't it interesting that most of God's chosen people rejected Him and ended up in Hell? Why would that be if God chose individuals as opposed to corporate Israel?

                    Therefore in Romans those who He foreknew and predestined is a description of the corporate Body of Christ.

                    One final and tortured example would be as follows....

                    If United Airlines stated... "Anyone who shows up at the United Airlines ticket gate tomorrow between 1PM and 3PM will get a free airplane ticket to anywhere in the continental US."

                    United Airlines has in effect predestined that anyone who shows up in that time frame will get the free ticket. They don't know who the individuals will be but they know that at the end of the day there will be a group of people with free airline tickets.

                    Corporate vs. individual election.
                    I was so hoping somebody besides me would explain this to her.

                    When it was explained to me it made perfect sense but Knight has such a better way of explaining it.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Knight View Post
                      Those He foreknew are the Body of Christ. Corporately not individually. It's really no different than God's elect (I.e. Israel). God's chosen people are Israel. Not individual people, but corporate Israel. And isn't it interesting that most of God's chosen people rejected Him and ended up in Hell? Why would that be if God chose individuals as opposed to corporate Israel?

                      Therefore in Romans those who He foreknew and predestined is a description of the corporate Body of Christ.

                      One final and tortured example would be as follows....

                      If United Airlines stated... "Anyone who shows up at the United Airlines ticket gate tomorrow between 1PM and 3PM will get a free airplane ticket to anywhere in the continental US."

                      United Airlines has in effect predestined that anyone who shows up in that time frame will get the free ticket. They don't know who the individuals will be but they know that at the end of the day there will be a group of people with free airline tickets.

                      Corporate vs. individual election.

                      Thank you, good answer
                      sigpic

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Inzl Kett View Post
                        I'll let Chickenman or one of the other posters who know their Greek better actually deal with the Greek translations of the words.
                        For the record, I studied Greek on my own for a short period of time. And only the equivalent of less than a 1st year student's studies. So...I'm not the one to ask about biblical Greek.
                        Funny how threads morph.


                        For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." ~ Paul


                        "You should never wave to someone you don't know. What if he doesn't have a hand? Then he'll just think you're being cocky!" ~Mitch Hedberg

                        __.._

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
                          For the sake of the argument concerning predestination and the thread, how do open theists interpret this passage that states being foreknown and states predestined:

                          Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

                          How does open theism defined what is meant by foreknowledge and predestination?
                          Something is very often overlooked in this passage. If the passage is NOT referring to corporate predestination (I believe it is), and if it is INSTEAD talking about individuals, then there's a huge problem. Here's why: Who did God foreknow? If one believes it's talking about individuals, then wouldn't that be a person who also believes that God foreknow every single person to have ever (and who will ever) live? The answer would have to be YES. And if so, then the passage would be teaching that God predestined, called, justified, and glorified every single person to have ever (and who will ever) lived, since He foreknew them all.

                          My take...

                          Randy
                          Funny how threads morph.


                          For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." ~ Paul


                          "You should never wave to someone you don't know. What if he doesn't have a hand? Then he'll just think you're being cocky!" ~Mitch Hedberg

                          __.._

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by chickenman View Post
                            Something is very often overlooked in this passage. If the passage is NOT referring to corporate predestination (I believe it is), and if it is INSTEAD talking about individuals, then there's a huge problem. Here's why: Who did God foreknow? If one believes it's talking about individuals, then wouldn't that be a person who also believes that God foreknow every single person to have ever (and who will ever) live? The answer would have to be YES. And if so, then the passage would be teaching that God predestined, called, justified, and glorified every single person to have ever (and who will ever) lived, since He foreknew them all.

                            My take...

                            Randy
                            Yes, but it could also be said that, that particular passage deals with believers, not everyone, could it not?
                            sigpic

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
                              Yes, but it could also be said that, that particular passage deals with believers, not everyone, could it not?
                              Good morning, Angel.

                              My point, which I didn't express too well, is that many will point to this passage to support individual predestination and they'll criticize others who do not take it literally. But if those people are right in their general view, then God foreknew everyone who has and will ever live. So if they were TRULY taking the passage literally, they would have to conclude that God predestines, calls, justifies, and glorifies everyone who has and will ever live.

                              I didn't express my full thought too well before. And I didn't have you in mind when writing it, just so you know. I only wanted to point out an observation I've made.

                              To answer your question, if the Open View is wrong, then I suppose it could be talking about individual believers instead of the corporate body. If that's the case, there would need to be something to help us read it that way.

                              We naturally talk in corporate terms, though, which is why it reads easily that way to me. An example I've often used is a friend of mine named Rebekah. After she and her husband had their first child - Haley - and began homeschooling her, she told us: "I knew before Damon and I were married that Haley would be homeschooled.". If this were written in the Bible and spoken by God, then many people today would conclude:
                              1) God knew all about Haley long before she was ever conceived
                              2) God predestined this individual little girl to be homeschooled

                              But when Rebekah spoke those words, there was not a dilemma about what she meant. No one would ever hear that and assume Rebekah was a god with special foreknowledge of details of the future. No, the truth that no one would ever argue is this: a condition of their marriage was that any kids they would have would be homeschooled. Upon making that agreement, they both knew that any and all future kids of theirs would be homeschooled. Years later, it was a natural thing to say: "I knew long before she was born that Haley would be homeschooled."

                              We talk that way. It's normal and understood in real life. But for some reason, we (generally as Christians) don't allow Paul or others to write/speak that way.

                              I get too wordy. I should have just said, "Maybe.".

                              RA
                              Last edited by chickenman; August 25, 2012, 08:45 AM.
                              Funny how threads morph.


                              For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." ~ Paul


                              "You should never wave to someone you don't know. What if he doesn't have a hand? Then he'll just think you're being cocky!" ~Mitch Hedberg

                              __.._

                              Comment

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