Theology Club: Was Faith Plus Works Required For Salvation Under the Law?

[Jerry Shugart]

Let us look at this passage from the Bible which forbids the idea that under the Law both faith and works were necessary for salvation:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

In this verse the Lord Jesus was addressing Jews who lived under the Law. Here the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. And in the first epistle of John we can see that John is addressing those who have already received eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

Those who believed were given eternal life and here is what the Lord Jesus said about those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

When we consider the words of the Lord Jesus quoted in this post it is evident that the Jews who lived under the Law were saved by faith alone and once they were saved they enjoyed eternal security.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Those who lived under the Law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

The Apostle Peter, who lived under the Law, stated in no uncertain terms that his salvation was on the principle of grace:

"But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we are saved, even as they"​

(Acts 15:11).​

In the following two verses Paul makes it plain that "works" and "grace" are mutually exclusive:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).​

There are many in the Mid Acts Dispensation community who teach that those who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from "works." However, the Scriptures reveal that their salvation was on the principle of grace, and if it is of works then it cannot be said to be by grace.

 

[heir]

Israel's salvation was/will be dependent upon them doing something by faith (James 2:18 KJV):

Repent, and believe the gospel (Mark 1:4 KJV) by baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4 KJV, Mark 16:16 KJV, Acts 2:38 KJV), keep the commandments (John 14:15 KJV, Matthew 23:2-3 KJV, John 15:5-10 KJV), endure to the end to be saved (Matthew 10:22 KJV), go through the trial of their faith (1 Peter 1:7 KJV), receiving the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls (1 Peter 1:9 KJV). That salvation is of the grace that "should" come unto them (Acts 15:11 KJV "shall be saved" not "are saved" like Jerry quotes from a corrupted word of God, 1 Peter 1:10 KJV). They look forward that their sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19-21 KJV).

That's not even close to the good news of our salvation! We're in the "but now" where the righteousness of God without the law by the faith of Jesus Christ is unto all and upon all them that believe (Romans 3:21-22 KJV). To be saved today is to trust the Lord believing the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) which is where the righteousness of God is revealed (Romans 1:16-17 KJV). Those who have trusted the Lord today having believed the gospel of Christ "are saved" presently (1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV, Ephesians 2:5 KJV, Ephesians 2:8 KJV). We are saved not by works of righteousness which we have done (Romans 4:4-5 KJV, Titus 3:4-7 KJV). We are baptized BY one Spirit into one Body (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV, which is the one baptism of Ephesians 4:5 KJV). We have now received the atonement (Romans 5:11 KJV). We're not waiting for it! PTL!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Israel's salvation was/will be dependent upon them doing something by faith (James 2:18 KJV):

You overlook what James said here in regard to how salvation comes to these Christians:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jms.1:18).​

It is word of truth and nothing else by which these Christians were born of God. And Peter also makes it plain that these people are "born again" by the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

We have now received the atonement (Romans 5:11 KJV). We're not waiting for it! PTL!

Are you not aware that these Christians have already been redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus, as witnessed by what Peter said here?:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).​

Do you really think that these people are not yet saved? Do you really think that the sins of these Christians have not yet been atoned for, especially with Peter's following words in view?:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).​

That salvation is of the grace that "should" come unto them (Acts 15:11

Do you deny that those who lived under the Law were saved on the principle of grace through faith, as witnessed by what Paul wrote here??:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

In the following two verses Paul makes it plain that "works" and "grace" are mutually exclusive:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).​

Do you believe that "works" and "grace" are mutually exclusive?

Of course they are. And since those under the law were saved by grace through faith it is evident that "works" played no part in their salvation.

 

[Danoh]

Yep, Jerry :thumb:

1 Peter 2:24 is right out of Isaiah 53, and also matches Romans 6.

Just as Acts 15:8-11 is in the sense of Galatians 2:14-17.

 

[patrick jane]

Yep, Jerry :thumb:

1 Peter 2:24 is right out of Isaiah 53, and also matches Romans 6.

Just as Acts 15:8-11 is in the sense of Galatians 2:14-17.

Fraud

 

[heir]

After all these years, Jerry can't see that the requirements for Israel to be saved were different than the requirements for us even though that's exactly what the scriptures show. He also has a hard time with the timing of the atonement being different for Israel than it is for us even though that's what the scriptures show.

 

[beloved57]

Let us look at this passage from the Bible which forbids the idea that under the Law both faith and works were necessary for salvation:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

In this verse the Lord Jesus was addressing Jews who lived under the Law. Here the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. And in the first epistle of John we can see that John is addressing those who have already received eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

Those who believed were given eternal life and here is what the Lord Jesus said about those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

When we consider the words of the Lord Jesus quoted in this post it is evident that the Jews who lived under the Law were saved by faith alone and once they were saved they enjoyed eternal security.

Only problem is that they which are in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8. And believing pleases God Heb 11:6.

That means one has to already be born again with spiritual and eternal life before they can believe!

 

[heir]

You overlook what James said here in regard to how salvation comes to these Christians:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jms.1:18).​

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[heir]

Do you really think that these people are not yet saved?

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

 

[heir]

Do you deny that those who lived under the Law were saved on the principle of grace through faith, as witnessed by what Paul wrote here??:

Why are you denying the passage (Acts 15:11 KJV)? Why are you running to Paul to prove Peter? You should be looking for what it is that Peter preached to Cornelius and his house in Acts 10.

Acts 15:11 KJV "shall be saved" does not equal the "are saved" to those who trusted the Lord believing the gospel Paul preached and declared in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV anymore than Acts 10:35 KJV equals Titus 3:5 KJV!

Not to mention looking in 1 Peter as I cited in the post above! When does it say "grace" will come into play for Peter? When will you believe it is when the scripture says it is and not until then?

 

[Danoh]

Fraud

Yep :chuckle:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

After all these years, Jerry can't see that the requirements for Israel to be saved were different than the requirements for us even though that's exactly what the scriptures show. He also has a hard time with the timing of the atonement being different for Israel than it is for us even though that's what the scriptures show.

Why did you just ignore this verse which demonstrate how the Jews were saved?:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

According to the Bible the Jews were saved when they believed the good news of Christ.

Does this verse mean nothing to you?

Evidently not!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

This verse is the key in understanding the verses which you quoted from the second chapter of the epistle of James. The verses which you quoted are in regard to what one man can know about another man's faith. If a man does not see the evidence of another man's faith then as far as a man can tell then that faith is dead because it bears no fruit.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Justified in the eyes of whom? Not justified in the eyes of the Lord, and Paul makes that plain:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Ro.4:1-3).​

Sir Robert Anderson, the father of systemized Mid Acts Dispensationalism, wrote:

"Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life " [emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).​

This is the only way to reconcile what is written in the second chapter with what is written here in the first chapter:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jms.1:18).​

You quoted that verse and then just ignored it!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Only problem is that they which are in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8. And believing pleases God Heb 11:6.

That means one has to already be born again with spiritual and eternal life before they can believe!

No, it is believing which brings life:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

In the following verse Paul is addressing those who already enjoy the salvation of their souls:

"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed" (Ro.13:11).

Here Paul is not saying that the salvation of their souls remains in the future but instead he is speaking about the time when their mortal body will put on immorality at the rapture. So it is that way that a "salvation" remains in the future.

And that is exactly what the two verses of which you quoted above are speaking.

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Here the Greek word translated "receiving" is in the "present" tense. Peter is telling them that they already have received the end or result of their faith, which is the "salvation of their soul. This translation clears up the meaning:

"for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls" (1 Pet.1:9; NIV).​

I answered all of your verses but you just ignored mine which prove that these Christians were already saved:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).​

These Christians were already "redeemed" by the blood of the Lord Jesus but despite this fact you continue to argue that they were not saved. You must not know what 'redemption" is about.

You also ignored these words which also demonstrates that these Christians were already saved:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).​

Even though their sins have been taken away you still insist that they were not yet saved. And here is another verse written to the same Christians which demonstrate that they were already saved:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

They have been given eternal life and that life is in the Son. But you argue that they are not saved yet!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Acts 15:11 KJV "shall be saved" does not equal the "are saved" to those who trusted the Lord believing the gospel Paul preached and declared in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV anymore than Acts 10:35 KJV equals Titus 3:5 KJV!

This is the better translation:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11; NIV).

Here the Greek word translated "we are saved" is in the "aorist" tense and this defines that tense:

"The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translation" (The Blue Letter Bible).​

So Peter uses a tense that is saying that their salvation, whenever it happens, is on the principle of grace. And since Peter makes it plain at 1 Peter 1:18-19 that these Christians have already been redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus it is obvious that they are already saved.

Why are you running to Paul to prove Peter?

Why would you object, especially since Paul is here speaking about how those who lived under the law were saved?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

According to Paul, those under the law are saved on the principle of "grace" and their salvation is received by "faith." And surely you would not object to my quoting Paul where he explains the principle of salvation by grace, would you?:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).[/INDENT]

If salvation is dependent on "works" then it cannot be described as being of grace. And even though Paul makes it plain that those under the law were saved by grace you stand reason on its head and argue that they could not be saved apart from works.

You should be looking for what it is that Peter preached to Cornelius and his house in Acts 10.

It is evident that Peter was preaching the identity of the Lord Jesus to Cornelius, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And even before Peter finished that sermon Cornelius had come to the conclusion that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And at that moment he was born of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

Cornelius was born of God the moment when he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Immediately the Holy Spirit fell on him and he began to speak in tongues.

Surely he was saved at that time because then he received life:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

The gospel message which Cornelius heard preached was the same message which was preached to the Jews who lived under the law. And the moment when the Jewish Christians believed that message they were saved by grace through faith.

But you deny that they were even saved. And despite the fact that Paul makes it clear that those under the law were saved by grace through faith you continue to insist that they could not be saved apart from works.

 

[beloved57]

No, it is believing which brings life:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

Those in the flesh cant Please God Rom 8:8. That means they cant believe Heb 11:6

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Those in the flesh cant Please God Rom 8:8. That means they cant believe Heb 11:6

By the context we can see that Paul is speaking about Christians being in the flesh:

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:12-13).​

If a Christian lives after the flesh and are not led by the Spirit then they cannot please God.

 

[Danoh]

Yes indeed to your last two posts above your last one Jerry - note...

Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.