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Pre-trib believers

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  • #31
    Re: PreTrib issues...

    1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

    Appearing to follow straight from the end of chapter 4; the above passage throws off both many a Pre-Tribber and its' many more...opponents.

    But the reason behind the passage is that it is basically just one more in a series of issues the Apostle Paul has been addressing.

    Notice his recurrent pattern throughout - how he touches on one issue or another, and then moves on to another - all sorts of issues too; that are not...necessarily related to a prior, and or preceding one.

    Typical Paul...

    1 Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

    4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

    4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    He continues this recurrent pattern in chapter 5...

    1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

    1 Thessalonians 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

    5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

    5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

    5:16 Rejoice evermore.

    5:17 Pray without ceasing.

    5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

    5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

    5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

    5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

    5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

    And so on...

    Obviously, where one approaches Paul from - on any issue - will greatly impact what one sees and or thinks one is seeing.

    It is a lesson...I relearn...but ever a worthwhile one


    • #32
      Originally posted by Tambora View Post
      POINT that needs more substantive support

      I've heard it said that the mystery was hid in plain sight.
      Meaning that it was in the OT prophets, but wasn't recognized.
      That's a pretty tricky statement, and I don't think it solves anything.
      There were many things prophesied that many did not recognize at the time of Jesus.
      Jesus as the Messiah being one of them.
      But even if they did not recognize it, it was still prophesied about.

      So we need to establish if the mystery was indeed spoken of by the prophets of old, or if the mystery was indeed a mystery (completely hid from the prophets).
      It's pretty hard to prove a negative. It seems to me that the burden would necessarily have to fall on those claiming that the Body of Christ was prophesied to prove that it was, not on us to prove that it was not. The closest you can come to proving that it was not prophesied is to simply make individual arguments that those things that are prophesied pertain only to Israel. The Tribulation and our belief in a pre-tribulation rapture is a perfect example.

      One of the most powerful arguments against the idea that the Body of Christ will have to endure the Tribulation is the fact that the Tribulation had begun during the Acts period and then was halted when God cut off Israel and turned to the Gentiles, creating the Body of Christ through the Apostle Paul. In fact, I think this single point clinches the entire argument. The Tribulation is about Israel and not the Body of Christ.

      The following twelve signs that were prophesied about the Tribulation occurred during the Acts period...
      1. Outpouring of the Spirit
        Prophesied: Joel 2:28-29; Zech. 12:9-10; Ezek. 39:21-22, 29
        Early Acts: Acts 2:4, 17-18, 33, 38; 4:31; 5:32; 6:3-5, 10; 7:55; 8:15-17
      2. Signs and Wonders
        Prophesied: Joel 2:30; Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22
        Early Acts: Acts 5:12; 8:6-7, 13; 2:2-3, 6; 4:30
      3. Earthquakes
        Prophesied: Isaiah 29:6; Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11
        Early Acts: Acts 4:31
      4. Beaten by Councils
        Prophesied: Mark 13:9
        Early Acts: Acts 5:27, 40
      5. "Laying on of Hands" to Imprison
        Prophesied: Luke 21:12
        Early Acts: Acts 4:3; 5:17-18, 21-23; 8:3
      6. Arrests lead to Testimony
        Prophesied: Luke 21:13
        Early Acts: Acts 4:4, 8-24; 5:19-20, 24-25
      7. Martyrdom
        Prophesied: Matthew 24:9; Luke 21:16
        Early Acts: Acts 5:33; 7:57-60; 8:1; 26:10
      8. The End Times would be short
        Prophesied: Matthew 10:17-23; 16:18; 24:22, 33-34; Mark 9:1; 13:20; Luke 9:27; 21:28, 31; Daniel 9:27
        Early Acts: (Sold homes) Acts 2:44-45; 4:34-35; 5:1-11
      9. Irresistible Wisdom
        Prophesied: Luke 21:15; Jeremiah 5;14
        Early Acts: Acts 6:10; 7:2-60
      10. Sun, Moon and Stars
        Prophesied: Joel 2:20-31; Isaiah 13:10; Ezekiel 32:7; Matthew 24:29; Mark 13:24-25: Luke 21:25
        Early Acts: Acts 2:19-20
      11. Christ's return was imminent
        Prophesied: Matthew 24-29-30; Daniel 7:11-13; Revelation 19:11-16
        Early Acts: Acts 3:19-20; 1:11
      12. Seven Feast of Israel
        Prophesied: Leviticus 23:4-44
        Early Acts: Acts 2:1, 4

      (The above is basically an outline of a fully fleshed out argument made by Bob Enyart on this topic in Chapter 9 of The Plot. If you haven't read it, I strongly recommend that you do so.)

      So it is safe to say that at least the prophecies concerning the Tribulation were/are concerning Israel and not the Body of Christ. But proving that all prophecy is not about the Body of Christ would be a herculean effort, tantimount to writing a commentary on the whole of the Old Testament as well as large portions of the New Testament.

      Resting in Him,
      "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders


      • #33
        Great post, Clete.

        Question: Is the Mystery in Daniel 9?

        Does Daniel 9 Prophesy a continuing gap in time within Israel's Prophesied Timeline?

        Does the Lord's reply in Acts 1 point to this same gap in time within Israel's Prophetic Timeline?

        Yes, in both instances.

        He did not "restore the kingdom to Israel at this time" did He?

        Looking back at that, say, from Romans 11:25, one can NOW see that ALTHOUGH the Father had Prophesied a gap in Time within Israel's Prophesied Timline; He also had had in mind some thing He would begin to unfold during His Prophesied interruption of Israel's Timeline.

        Romans 11:25 being an answer of sorts to the Acts 1 question.

        I first began to see this when I asked myself my seemingly silly question - what if Israel had repented; what would have become of the Mystery?

        Studying all this out in light of my question; it struck me that the Mystery is not in response to Israel's rebellion.

        That Israel's rebellion was a rebellion that predated even Daniel.

        He prayed about when Israel would be restored and was not only told that Israel would reject Messah the Prince that should come; but that there would be a gap in time after that before Israel was finally restored.

        Meaning; the LORD knew all this.

        Meaning; the Body was neither an afterthought, nor a replacement of Israel's mission; nor some "opportunity to save us Gentiles" and so on.

        Meaning the Mystery is not and did not have to be hidden in the OT. For it has nothing to do with that purpose.

        The Mystery is something totally different.

        It's issue is that of that other fall - that took place BEFORE the world began.

        Even Hollywood gets this right that even some Mads do not.

        Where Hollywood portrays fallen angels upset that God has a greater plan for men then for them, and are depicted as plotting against men.

        That is OUR Program!

        For in Prophecy Angels are above Israel in authority!

        Whereas the Body is over the Angels - and the Body is said to be at war with the fallen them!

        Understanding these things really all depends on how far, how high, how wide, how deep, in short; how much each person has been able to see as to this amazing "manifold (many faceted) wisdom of a mystery..."

        Eph. 3:18; 4:16.