Theology Club: The Things That Differ

[Danoh]

Over on the ETC Forum thread "What gospel was Paul saved under" we were all making some good progress just comparing how we MADs each see things, but Lazy, who started the thread but hates MAD, closed it just when it was getting interesting.

Its' the same throughout history; truth shut down by the oppressors.

I thought we might continue the various issues we MADs were comparing notes on over here...

Anyway, here goes...

 

[Danoh]

GM, you mentioned this:

"I believe that while the Apostles still walked the earth there were two distinct messages being taught. Faith without works to the Gentiles and faith with works to the Jews. Today, there exists only one message: 'The Grace Gospel.'"

Clete then said:

"I agree with this but do you ever wonder how this worked in actual practice? I mean, put yourself in the shoes of James. You and your wife and kids all practice your Christianity according to the Kingdom Gospel but what do the grandkids do? What would James have taught his grandkids to believe? Multiply that times the thousands of families that came to Christ under the Kingdom Gospel and you'll begin to understand the magnitude of the issue. How did Kingdom Believers transition their own families over to the Gospel of Grace?

Resting in Him,
Clete"

 

[Danoh]

My own take on that as to an answer would be this, in verse 20.

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

In other words, though their hope had been postponed, they remained under it, for it is THEIR hope.

This here...

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

They died out in THEIR hope because that is THEIR hope, just as those before them died in THEIR aspect of THIS SAME hope.

What awaits these brothers and sisters of ours as to THEIR "Kingdom Saint" hope?

Look at this absolutely moving portrait of THEIR hope in it's beauty...

John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him. 11:16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. 11:17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already. 11:18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off: 11:19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother. 11:20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house. 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 11:22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Why?

11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Note THEIR Glorious hope!

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[Danoh]

The grandkids part would have been similar to Apollos' transition in Acts 18.

He had only known John's ministry. He had not known the Lord had come after John, ministered, died, risen again, sent The Spirit, etc.

He'd missed out on all that.

When he was shown the way of God more perfectly, he then began to preach it.

Meaning; in a similar manner; with the shut down of the Kingdom aspect; the grand kids would have been given Paul's gospel.

I see something similar in Acts and Corinthians and Galatians - both churches of God in existence at the same time.

Sort of like how Timothy was raised under the Law but was out there in the boondocks when the Kingdom gospel was no more and Paul met him with his gospel.

What some fellow MADs here hold about the Romans being transitioned from the one program to the other; I see that kind of thing would have been the case with the Believing remnant's grand kids.

They would have given them Paul's gospel.

These are not wasted questions; they challenge one to think things through in light of other things and as a result, said other things later prove helpful in other areas that are more relevant.

 

[Clete]

My own take on that as to an answer would be this, in verse 20.

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

In other words, though their hope had been postponed, they remained under it, for it is THEIR hope.

This here...

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

They died out in THEIR hope because that is THEIR hope, just as those before them died in THEIR aspect of THIS SAME hope.

What awaits these brothers and sisters of ours as to THEIR "Kingdom Saint" hope?

Look at this absolutely moving portrait of THEIR hope in it's beauty...

John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him. 11:16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. 11:17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already. 11:18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off: 11:19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother. 11:20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house. 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 11:22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Why?

11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Note THEIR Glorious hope!

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

There is no question that every word of this post is correct and it also happens to do a pretty excellent job of portraying how similar the Kingdom Gospel is to the Grace Gospel. However, I'm not sure it really addresses my question...

Clearly, Peter, James and John had many converts and they all stayed under the Kingdom Gospel until their death (and even after that), but there had to come a point where Peter, James and John and their converts had to either start converting people to Paul's gospel or else they had to stop converting people at all. Eventually, the Kingdom Gospel's power to save had to end and I have no doubt that this occured within the lifetime of several of the Twelve Apostles and certainly within the lifetime of thousands of their converts. So how did that transition play out for those who were saved by and lived under the Kingdom Gospel? What did James' converts teach their children and grandchildren and how weird would that have been, having groups of believers from both dispensations in the same family and likely under the same roof?

"Mommy, why won't you and GrandPa James eat pepporoni pizza? It's really yummy!"

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

The grandkids part would have been similar to Apollos' transition in Acts 18.

He had only known John's ministry. He had not known the Lord had come after John, ministered, died, risen again, sent The Spirit, etc.

He'd missed out on all that.

When he was shown the way of God more perfectly, he then began to preach it.

Meaning; in a similar manner; with the shut down of the Kingdom aspect; the grand kids would have been given Paul's gospel.

I see something similar in Acts and Corinthians and Galatians - both churches of God in existence at the same time.

Sort of like how Timothy was raised under the Law but was out there in the boondocks when the Kingdom gospel was no more and Paul met him with his gospel.

What some fellow MADs here hold about the Romans being transitioned from the one program to the other; I see that kind of thing would have been the case with the Believing remnant's grand kids.

They would have given them Paul's gospel.

These are not wasted questions; they challenge one to think things through in light of other things and as a result, said other things later prove helpful in other areas that are more relevant.

I obviously hadn't seen this post when I wrote my last post but that's okay. I agree with you that at some point Kingdom believers simply had to transition over to Paul's Gospel. I guess my point isn't so much a question as it is an observation of how weird this transition would have been for a great many people during that period.

In fact, I have little doubt that there would have been some who refused to make the transition at all and stubbornly continued to teach the Kingdom Gospel just as so many do to this day.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Danoh]

On reflection Clete; I suspect the tension such an issue would result in within families back then might not have been much different from when a head of a household today embraces A9D, begins to transition their family to A9D, and finds that some reject it, and they remain a family nevertheless (or not).

I once met an A9D Pastor who not only went through that with his own family, but with his entire assembly when he embraced Mid-Acts.

I knew another one whose wife remained a Baptist; his two daughters remained Pentecostal (a result of his journey from that, to the Baptists, on his way to MAD) and only their little boy was being raised Mid-Acts.

The little guy knew more our distinctions than his mom, his sisters, and his dad, combined, lol

You know what, Clete; now that I think on it, yours turns out a much more relevant question than we both perhaps started out thinking it was...

Thanks to the mess that Denominationalism both is, and results in, your question is one once more having to be wrestled with by families in our day.

Your question turns out an important one.

One actually worthy of a Sunday morning sermon, for its potentially much needed edification.

I hadn't thought on this much til you brought this question up and I found myself thinking on it simply out of my curiosity about how things work.

Its an odd question you asked.

But it is that kind of a question that began the reemergence of Mid Acts Dispensationalism.

An at first glance, seemingly insignificant question...

Just goes to show the important distinctions we MADs can actually contribute to one another's greater understandings when we do not allow this potentially problematic issue to be ours where we find ourselves seeing some things differently within our own ranks as fellow MADs.

Thank you, bro,

Eph. 4:16.

 

[Danoh]

Lol, Clete, seems we're each posting even as the other is drawing a similar conclusion :chuckle:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

There is no question that every word of this post is correct and it also happens to do a pretty excellent job of portraying how similar the Kingdom Gospel is to the Grace Gospel. However, I'm not sure it really addresses my question...

Clearly, Peter, James and John had many converts and they all stayed under the Kingdom Gospel until their death (and even after that), but there had to come a point where Peter, James and John and their converts had to either start converting people to Paul's gospel or else they had to stop converting people at all. Eventually, the Kingdom Gospel's power to save had to end and I have no doubt that this occured within the lifetime of several of the Twelve Apostles and certainly within the lifetime of thousands of their converts. So how did that transition play out for those who were saved by and lived under the Kingdom Gospel? What did James' converts teach their children and grandchildren and how weird would that have been, having groups of believers from both dispensations in the same family and likely under the same roof?

"Mommy, why won't you and GrandPa James eat pepporoni pizza? It's really yummy!"

Resting in Him,
Clete

Good post.

 

[Danoh]

By the way, Clete, my line on the thread that was shutdown by Lazy - my line about "so you're a twelve inner" :chuckle: was just a quip; I was joking - "ah so you believe the Twelve were in the Body."

Though I hold they and their followers were eternally saved; I do not hold they were in the Body and was jokingly riding you.

It was a joke; as I neither know where you stand on whether the twelve were in the Body or not, nor do I believe it is an important issue.

I doubt the Twelve and their followers worry over it :chuckle:

 

[Clete]

By the way, Clete, my line on the thread that was shutdown by Lazy - my line about "so you're a twelve inner" :chuckle: was just a quip; I was joking - "ah so you believe the Twelve were in the Body."

Though I hold they and their followers were eternally saved; I do not hold they were in the Body and was jokingly riding you.

It was a joke; as I neither know where you stand on whether the twelve were in the Body or not, nor do I believe it is an important issue.

I doubt the Twelve and their followers worry over it :chuckle:

Yes, I could tell that it was a joke, I just couldn't figure out what it meant.

For the record, I definitely know for sure that the twelve were not members of the Body of Christ.

By the way, I propose that anyone who shuts down an active thread should be banned from participating in any threads that someone else had to start to continue the discussion.

That might be a difficult rule to enforce but it should be a rule anyway.

 

[Clete]

On reflection Clete; I suspect the tension such an issue would result in within families back then might not have been much different from when a head of a household today embraces A9D, begins to transition their family to A9D, and finds that some reject it, and they remain a family nevertheless (or not).

I once met an A9D Pastor who not only went through that with his own family, but with his entire assembly when he embraced Mid-Acts.

I knew another one whose wife remained a Baptist; his two daughters remained Pentecostal (a result of his journey from that, to the Baptists, on his way to MAD) and only their little boy was being raised Mid-Acts.

The little guy knew more our distinctions than his mom, his sisters, and his dad, combined, lol

You know what, Clete; now that I think on it, yours turns out a much more relevant question than we both perhaps started out thinking it was...

Thanks to the mess that Denominationalism both is, and results in, your question is one once more having to be wrestled with by families in our day.

Your question turns out an important one.

One actually worthy of a Sunday morning sermon, for its potentially much needed edification.

I hadn't thought on this much til you brought this question up and I found myself thinking on it simply out of my curiosity about how things work.

Its an odd question you asked.

But it is that kind of a question that began the reemergence of Mid Acts Dispensationalism.

An at first glance, seemingly insignificant question...

Just goes to show the important distinctions we MADs can actually contribute to one another's greater understandings when we do not allow this potentially problematic issue to be ours where we find ourselves seeing some things differently within our own ranks as fellow MADs.

Thank you, bro,

Eph. 4:16.

Terrific post! I think you're right, it seems that we are thinking each other's thoughts in between posts! I love it when that happens!

It might interest you to know that this question occurred to me a long time ago, and was born out of a frustration with the dullness (to put it kindly) of those on this site who attempt to make arguments against Mid-Acts Dispensationalism. I often wonder why people can't come up with objections that are at least as good as some of the things that I can think of myself to make arguments against my own doctrine! It's pretty bad when you can make a more interesting debate against yourself than can those who actually disagree with you. There's been several times when I've expected a debate to go in one direction or another and I've spent time actually thinking through how I intend to respond only to be dismayed at the completely lame direction in which the debate actually ends up going, which is usually nowhere and turns out to be nothing but someone repeating themselves no matter how well the point has been responded too.

Also, I'm always sort of half trepidacious about bringing these kinds of questions up in the general forum for fear of handing someone ammo that they will use, not against me but with others in their circle of influence. I'd hate to think that I contributed, even a little bit, to the perpetuation of false teaching.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Danoh]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts; Clete :up:

 

[patrick jane]

Very good guys, good thread -

 

[Danoh]

Here's a question I have found useful to ask myself - for, over the years; whenever I have asked various fellow MADs these kinds of questions *, I've met with anything but enthusiasm :chuckle:

"What if Israel had not only heard out the Spirit speaking to them through Stephen; but had repented - in their case; obeyed the Law of Moses, by turning back to the God of their fathers in believing that Jesus was the Christ Who Moses did say should come?

What if the Law had not proven Israel guilty of sin with the world, as a result?

What if Israel had repented back then; what then of Paul and the Mystery?

I have found it a good question to ask for what it forces one to have to think through, and as a result; see things with even greater clarity; or greater clarity that might otherwise take one longer to arrive at; but for these kinds of seemingly oddball questions.

_____

* No one is immune from not catching the potential good use such questions can often result in....

A friend of mine is one of the most insightful Mid-Acts Bible students I have had the privelege of back and forth "iron sharpeneth iron fellowship" with over the years...

He is well known within MAD for his razor sharp mind.

And yet, even he has his moments where one of my seemingly odd questions will go right over him.

I once asked him "what's your take on..."

Acts 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

"...on that wording there about "a sabbath day's journey"?

Knowing well, he laughed that warm laugh of his, as I imagined his shaking his head left and right over the phone, as he humbly replied "Luke is just mentioning that in passing" :chuckle:

He knew well, I would go on to attempt to pin down the sense of it, lol

Looking into it, I found that it has to do with travel restrictions one under the Law is to observe as the day of the Sabbath draws near.

At which point, the following came to mind, from time the Word...

Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

It struck me that Acts 1:12 is one more case of "yep; the Little Flock definetely remained under the Law..."

Wasted, oddball questions?

Lol - now it's our turn, Clete - in other words - :chuckle:
________

What if Israel had repented back then; what then of Paul and the Mystery?

What greater insight about The Mystery might attempting to solve for that kind of a question in light of Scripture, result in, or allow?

Matthew 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

 

[patrick jane]

What if Israel had repented back then; what then of Paul and the Mystery?

Then Jesus would have returned in the clouds for the final judgement, without the need for Paul

 

[Danoh]

Then Jesus would have returned in the clouds for the final judgement, without the need for Paul

Consider that Paul and The Mystery* are not a "replacement" of Israel and the Prophetic aspect of God's Two-Fold Plan and Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery.

_______

* In my understanding, just as the Prophetic aspect is one aspect of God's Two-Fold Purpose but is comprised of various aspects as to Israel, The Mystery is also singular, not plural.

 

[patrick jane]

Consider that Paul and The Mystery* are not a "replacement" of Israel and the Prophetic aspect of God's Two-Fold Plan and Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery.

_______

* In my understanding, just as the Prophetic aspect is one aspect of God's Two-Fold Purpose but is comprised of various aspects as to Israel, The Mystery is also singular, not plural.

So God always intended to bring the Gentiles in

 

[Danoh]

Let me see if I can lay out my understanding clearly, and without being to long winded...

God has a TWO-Fold Plan and Purpose by which He will bring glory to Himself In His Son Through the Spirit.

This purpose is comprised of TWO folds, or aspects: Prophecy and Mystery.

Prophecy concerns how He will bring about the Earthly aspect of the above in His Son through the Spirit in the Israel of God as His Kingdom of Priests, over all the nations of the Earth.

The Mystery concerns how He will bring about the Heavenly aspect of the above in His Son through the Spirit in a New Creature: the Body of Christ over the Heavenly Realm.

The Israel of God will be comprised of the physical seed of Jacob who believe on the Son and those Gentiles on the Earth who submit to Israel's Covenant of Circumcision and the Law.

The balance of the Gentiles on the Earth will not be blessed with Israel.

Rather, through Israel, under how that will work during Israel's Millennial reign.

The Body of Christ is a New Creature comprised of formerly lost Jews and Gentiles this side of Israel's TEMPORARY fall.

At some point after all that; the Lord will turn it all back unto the Father.

My oddball question was in light of all that.

I ask myself those kinds of questions...

...for what they cause me to have to reflect on as to where I might be off on one thing or another, but also...

...for what they both allow me to see even clearer...

...as well as for what else I might be able to see that I'd not seen before...

...or might not have, but for my oddball questions.

I also often find all that a great help later in other areas when I study said other areas out...

Very often I'll find that something I had previously looked at but had not been able to sort out...has either sorted itself out the next time I look at it, or does so, right before my eyes...

What the Apostle Paul refers to as beholding as in a mirror the breadth, and depth, and length, and height...that is all the fulness of God in the Son by the Spirit.

This is The Mystery - thirteen short Epistles in contrast to how huge the balance of Scripture is, and yet, its' own endless, bottomless ocean of wonderous delight as to glory of the Father in His Son Son by the Spirit, in its' own right!

 

[patrick jane]

Let me see if I can lay out my understanding clearly, and without being to long winded...

God has a TWO-Fold Plan and Purpose by which He will bring glory to Himself In His Son Through the Spirit.

This purpose is comprised of TWO folds, or aspects: Prophecy and Mystery.

Danoh, what if the Jews repented and accepted Christ and there was no stoning of Stephen? What do you think would have happened in God's plan?