Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?

[Nick M]

And now for the rest of the story....

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

 

[heir]

So I can believe that Jesus is the Christ, but deny 1 Cor 15:1-4 and still be saved?

If that were so, what was the point of the letter to the Romans? Or for that matter, that the risen Lord appeared to Paul (then Saul) in the first place?!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Nobody is saved in those letters, and it is not addressed to the Body of Christ. This is why you skip so much of it.

So those who received John's first epistle even though they atre told this?:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

For the dispensation it fits, obviously doesn't fit this one

where is you Scriptual evidence to support such a claim. I say that they are because those who received John's first epistle were indeed dsaved since it is said that they aalready have eternal life and 'that life is in the Son":

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

Let us look at this verse which is addressed to those in the Body of Christ::

"...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together (syzoopoieo) with Christ, (by grace you have been saved)" (Eph.2:5).

Here the Greek word syzoopoieo is translated "made us alive together."

The Greek word syzoopoieo is made up of two words, zoopoieo and syn.

The word zoopoieo means to "make alive, give life" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The word syn means "with, besides, accompany...a primary preposition denoting union" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So when a person is made alive together with Christ he is placed in union with the Lord Jesus. The following verse describes that union we have with the Lord Jesus and it also describes the life we enjoy when we are made alive together with Him:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

What is said there cannot be said about anyone other than those in the Body of Christ.

 

[heir]

Lots of people on TOL believe that Jesus is the Christ, but deny Paul's gospel.

Yep, they don't want to be established.

 

[Right Divider]

I was saying to have heard the word of this salvation, they would have had to be in the synagogue of the Jews fearing God as Paul was sent to the Jew first and also to the Greek, the called, at that time. And used Acts 17:1-2 KJV to show you that it was his manner...
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Sorry, heir, but I've heard others say this and it does not hold up.

Paul was NOT "sent to the Jew first". That was HIS custom (or manner, as Acts 17:2 says).

The account in Acts 26 shows clearly that Paul's ministry to the Gentiles started immediately and not at some later time.

Act 26:14-18 KJV And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. (15) And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. (16) But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; (17) Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, (18) To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
​

The "Jew first" stuff that we find in Romans is simply explaining that God came to His people first and that they had first "responsibility" of faith and first punishment for failure.

That is what is being referred to here with the "no respect of persons".

Rom 2:9-11 KJV Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (10) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (11) For there is no respect of persons with God.
​

One of the reasons that God called Paul was because the Jews (and all of Israel as a whole) had rejected their "first" place and their Messiah and therefore God revealed His (as yet) hidden plan to save souls regardless of Israel's failure.

Rom 11:11 KJV I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
​

What would provoke them to jealousy more that the GRACE freely given to the Gentiles apart from Israel?

Rom 3:24-26 KJV Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.​

Paul's ministry was not a two-phase ministry.

 

[heir]

Sorry, heir, but I've heard others say this and it does not hold up. Paul was NOT "sent to the Jew first"

Romans 1:16 KJV

The "Jew first" stuff that we find in Romans is simply explaining that God came to His people first and that they had first "responsibility" of faith and first punishment for failure.

Nope. The Jew still had the advantage (Romans 3:1-2 KJV), hence "to the Jew first and also to the Greek".

The account in Acts 26 shows clearly that Paul's ministry to the Gentiles started immediately and not at some later time.

Paul was sent twice to two different groups of Gentiles.

Paul's ministry was not a two-phase ministry.

two sendings:

now send thee Acts 26:17 KJV,
will send thee Acts 22:21 KJV

two Gentiles:

heirs according to the promise (Galatians 3:29 KJV)
strangers from the covenants of promise (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV)

Together, they are the two groups in the one Body~the twain made one new man.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

 

[Right Divider]

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two sendings:

now send thee Acts 26:17 KJV,
will send thee Acts 22:21 KJV

Absolutely not. The NOW I SEND THEE is Paul recounting what happened on the Damascus road and not some later contact with Jesus Christ.

Act 26:12-18 KJV Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, (13) At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. (14) And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. (15) And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. (16) But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; (17) Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, (18) To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
​

That is the FIRST time that Saul/Paul encountered the risen Lord Jesus and not some later event. Acts 22 is ANOTHER account of the SAME event.

Act 22:6-12 KJV And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. (7) And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? (8) And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. (9) And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. (10) And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do. (11) And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. (12) And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
​

Why do you try to make these different? They are all the SAME EVENT, just different times that Paul is telling the SAME STORY.

BOTH of these accounts mesh with Luke's account in Acts 9:

Act 9:3-17 KJV And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: (4) And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? (5) And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. (6) And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. (7) And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. (8) And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. (9) And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. (10) And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. (11) And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, (12) And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. (13) Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: (14) And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. (15) But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: (16) For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. (17) And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
​

These are NOT three separate events, but ONE.

two Gentiles:

heirs according to the promise (Galatians 3:29 KJV)
strangers from the covenants of promise (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV)

Together, they are the two groups in the one Body~the twain made one new man.

That's just plain weird. The TWO made ONE are JEWS and GENTILES.

Eph 2:11-17 KJV Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
​

The TWO made ONE are the UNCIRCUMCISION and the CIRCUMCISION.

How did you ever get the idea that there were TWO kinds of Gentiles?

Them that 'were far off' were those who were strangers from the covenants of promise (Gentiles) and 'them that were nigh' were Israel (had made a covenant with God).

Do you think that believing Israel was NOT reconciled in the BOTH?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul was NOT "sent to the Jew first". That was HIS custom (or manner, as Acts 17:2 says).

Paul did preach to the Jews before he preached to the Gentiles. Here we see exactly what Paul preached to the Jews not long after his conversion on the Damascus road:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

There is nothing that even hints that at that time Paul preached the same gospel which he later preached to the Gentiles. In fact, here we read what Paul said about the events surrounding his receiving of the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles:

“But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus” (Gal.1:15-17).​

When Paul received the gospel from the Lord Jesus on the Damascus road he immediately went to Damascus (Acts 9:6-8). But when he received the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles he went immediately into Arabia. That can only mean that two different gospels were preached during the Acts period.

Paul's ministry was not a two-phase ministry.

Of course it was. To the Jews he preached that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. To the gentiles he preached the "gospel of grace," the truth that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

What would provoke them to jealousy more that the GRACE freely given to the Gentiles apart from Israel?

The Jews under the Law were also saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

 

[Nick M]

So those who received John's first epistle even though they atre told this?:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

Fine, lets continue with John.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

This is my last reference to a letter that is in lock step with the circumcision and James. Faith and works are required of the circumcision. Faith alone to uncircumcision.

 

[heir]

Absolutely not. The NOW I SEND THEE is Paul recounting what happened on the Damascus road and not some later contact with Jesus Christ.

Agreed.

Does now send thee and will send thee mean the same thing?

now send thee Acts 26:17 KJV,
will send thee Acts 22:21 KJV

Let's take a look in the verse preceeding Acts 26:17. It's loaded with information!

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

There's a

"have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things"

"and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee"

So we've got a "have appeared unto thee" and a"will appear unto thee" and a "these things" and a "those things"

That's not all the same thing. The Lord would make Paul a minister and a witness of both!

That's just plain weird. The TWO made ONE are JEWS and GENTILES.

no.

How did you ever get the idea that there were TWO kinds of Gentiles?

Are these the same?

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

vs.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Them that 'were far off' were those who were strangers from the covenants of promise (Gentiles) and 'them that were nigh' were Israel (had made a covenant with God).

Them that were far off (Ephesians 2:13 KJV) were the Gentiles like the Ephesians to whom Paul wrote the letter. He just got done describing them in Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV. They are the "ye" who "also trusted"

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Them that were nigh (forgetting about the Jews in the first group for a moment) were the "we" who "first trusted" in Christ

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

beginning with the apostle Paul (then Saul)

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Do you think that believing Israel was NOT reconciled in the BOTH?

The remnant according to the election of grace which God foreknew (Romans 11:1-5 KJV), those to whom Paul was first sent (Acts 13:26 KJV, Acts 26:17 KJV), Jews and Greeks in the commonwealth of Israel and gathered into the Body by the preaching of Paul in the synagogues (as his manner was Acts 17:1-2 KJV, Acts 18:4 KJV). That's what we see Paul doing during the book of Acts. It is only after the remnant was gathered that Paul was sent to all men, "to be testified in due time" (Acts 20:24 KJV, 1 Timothy 2-4-6 KJV).

 

[heir]

I really wish you would have started a new thread on this topic; it's too late now.

 

[intojoy]

That verse says nothing about how that was possible, which is an essential truth found in the "gospel of grace," that believers are “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (Ro.3:24).

I guess you just overlooked that fact!

Then wut does it say?

 

[intojoy]

No you won't. You have been shown what the Bible clearly teaches and you reject it.

Is that you or the Jim beam talkin?

 

[heir]

Acts 22 is ANOTHER account of the SAME event.

Not all of it!

Where was Saul when the risen Lord first appeared unto him bright as the noon day sun?

Acts 22:5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

Acts 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

Acts 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Acts 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

That is the account of what happened in Acts 9.

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

Acts 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.



Now, watch this! Where was Paul in verse 17 of chapter 22:


Acts 22:17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;

Acts 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.

Acts 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Acts 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

Acts 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

That is NOT the same appearing or sending as in Acts 9 and the recount verses earlier in chapter 22 or the recount of the Acts 9 appearing in Acts 26!

Paul (then Saul) was on the road to Damascus when the risen Lord first appeared unto him. He wasn't praying in the temple, in a trance in Acts 9! Acts 22:17-21 KJV is a second appearing; the appearing the Lord promised Saul in the recalling of Acts 9 in Acts 26 (Acts 26:16 KJV)! It is a second sending unto those far hence Gentiles who in time past were without hope and without God in the world (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV). They weren't like the Gentiles Paul found in the synagogue of the Jews fearing the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 13:26 KJV), who were in the covenants of promise (Galatians 3:29 KJV), seeking a blessing (Genesis 12:3 KJV). The evidence is overwhelming!

 

[Nick M]

Is that you or the Jim beam talkin?

Nice misdirection.

 

[Shasta]

Uh, no. Follow closely.

Acts 1

1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

And what do they ask him?

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

My comments were particularly about what Jesus spoke about in Luke 24 (which you did not address). Yes He said much more later that I did not mention but I did not need to in order to make my point.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Fine, lets continue with John.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

This is my last reference to a letter that is in lock step with the circumcision and James. Faith and works are required of the circumcision. Faith alone to uncircumcision.

Indeed,

Hebrews 3:14 (KJV)

Simple.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Fine, lets continue with John.

So do you see that those who received John's first epistle were indeed saved, especially since they are told that they already have eternal life, and that life is in the Son?

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Confessing our sins is the same thing as acknowledging our sins and that is exactly what Paul is speaking of when he says the following to those in the Body:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:31-32).​

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Are we not also to keep the Lord's commandments? Are we not to walk as the Lord Jesus walked?

This is my last reference to a letter that is in lock step with the circumcision and James. Faith and works are required of the circumcision. Faith alone to uncircumcision.

No, when we examine the book of James we see the following way whereby they were saved:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (James 1:18).​

Besides that, the following words of the Lord spoken to those of the circumcision who lived under the Law proves that only faith was required for salvation:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Indeed,

Hebrews 3:14 (KJV)

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" (Heb.3:14).​

Those who say that those who received the book of Hebrews did not enjoy eternal security quote this verse in order to attempt to prove their idea. They say that this verse teaches that these believers can fall back into a state of death.

The Greek word (metochoi) translated "partakers" might be more literally rendered "partners". One of the meanings of that Greek word is "a partner (in a work, office, dignity)" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The role of the "work" of "serving" the Lord, like the privilege of serving in the priestly house (v.6), is dependent on continued fidelity. This verse is not speaking of eternal salvation but instead about serving the Lord Jesus. We can see that the reference to "house" in the following verses are in regard to service":

"And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a Son over His own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end" (Heb.3:5-6).​

So by the "context" we can see that the Son's own house refers to His Priestly "service" (Heb.2:17; 3:1) and not salvation.

In the following verse we can see that those who received the book of Hebrews did indeed enjoy eternal security:

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:10,14).​