Theology Club: The Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Wrong assumptions/wrong conclusions.

They were not preaching the law as a condition of eternal life.

Who said they did not follow the Great Commission?

Who said James said works were a condition of eternal life (false even in the OT)? James is talking fruit, not root.

You need basic NT theology and sound exegesis in context. You are creating straw man problems that are resolved without MAD.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Can you show where Peter taught what Paul did?

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Hi, Doormat.

By this statement, do you mean:
  • There is only one gospel TODAY.
  • There is only gospel in the scriptures
  • There is only one gospel that saves
  • Other
Can you clarify what you mean?

Thanks,
Randy

Hmmm, Noah being given 120 years to build the ark because God was going to hit the reset button on us seems like good news.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Wrong assumptions/wrong conclusions.

They were not preaching the law as a condition of eternal life.

Who said they did not follow the Great Commission?

Who said James said works were a condition of eternal life (false even in the OT)? James is talking fruit, not root.

You need basic NT theology and sound exegesis in context. You are creating straw man problems that are resolved without MAD.
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, [Jesus]“All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[/Jesus]
-Matthew 28:18-20


But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
-Galatians 2:7-9

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
-1 Corinthians 1:17

And you know full well that James said men were justified by works:

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
-James 2:24
 

Pneuma

New member
There is only ONE gospel unto salvation. Paul first preached the gospel to the Jews in the synagogue and when they rejected this gospel Paul then went to the gentile.

Acts 17:1-2 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Acts 18:19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

Paul preaches the faith that he once persecuted other for preaching.

Galatians 1:23
23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.


It is the same gospel that was preached first to the Jew and then also to the Greek.

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

If Peter and the boys preached another gospel then Paul tells us they are accursed.

Galatians 1:6-9
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


The same gospel preached is a stumblingblock unto the Jew and foolishness unto the Greek.

1 Corinthians 1:21-24
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.



But here is the clincher for me.

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.



Jesus Christ broke down the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile, so if one preaches a different gospel to the Jew and a different gospel to the gentile then one is trying to build up that which Christ tore down.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
What's there to refute?

The Theology Club is for folks who do not wish to bicker, fight, play games, obfuscate, or otherwise present themselves as a distraction to the discussion....The MidActs Dispensationalism Forum is a PRO-dispensationalism theology forum. In other words this forum is intended to primarily discuss dispensationalism from the perspective that it is the correct biblical view. That does not mean that the view cannot be questioned or debated, instead it simply means this forum will not be a place for those that disagree to grandstand...
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Paul first preached the gospel to the Jews in the synagogue and when they rejected this gospel Paul then went to the gentile.

You show Paul going to the Jews and preaching. Yet right here he says this.

7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter

So Paul is double minded?
 

Pneuma

New member
You show Paul going to the Jews and preaching. Yet right here he says this.

7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter

So Paul is double minded?

We also see Peter going first to the gentile, does that make Peter double minded? or does it simply show that in Christ there is neither Jew or gentile.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Can you show where Peter taught what Paul did?

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Acts 2

Jn. 3:16; Acts 2:38; I Cor. 15:1-4; Rom. 10:9-10, etc. have complementary vs contradictory gospel truths.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
We also see Peter going first to the gentile, does that make Peter double minded? or does it simply show that in Christ there is neither Jew or gentile.

This is true based on Christ/cross, Jew/Gentile one in Christ. MAD's two gospel theory actually is a denial of His finished work and creates a caste system in the early church.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
You show Paul going to the Jews and preaching. Yet right here he says this.

7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter

So Paul is double minded?

No, this is a demarcation of ministry like you taking the gospel to Americans and me taking the gospel to my fellow Canadians.

I am not breaking the rules since I am adding content, but you are breaking the rules in your harassment, name calling, telling me to buzz off, etc.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, [Jesus]“All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[/Jesus]
-Matthew 28:18-20


But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
-Galatians 2:7-9

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
-1 Corinthians 1:17

And you know full well that James said men were justified by works:

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
-James 2:24

Proof texting, not exegeting. None of these verses have ever been a problem for Acts 2 disps. MAD makes problems when none exist to try to give answers to support preconceived ideas. The issues of MAD can be refuted with sound theology/exegesis. You also must ignore other verses that do not support your view or reinterpret them to try to support it.

I am surprised that you have not considered alternate interpretations (or that you reject them). They are usually brought up by skeptics who want to make the Bible appear to have contradictions. MAD claims to be one system to resolve these alleged discrepancies, but exegesis does a better job with embracing a problematic paradigm.

The points of THE PLOT are partially right, but others are wrong. So, I will deal with each doctrinal issue on its own merits (cessationism vs continuationism, etc.) without resorting to a simplistic system that sounds good on the surface but falls apart with original language research, non-KJV only texts, context, theological principles (finished work of the cross, etc.).

I am all far mighty Paul, but hyper-disp simply is not the best way to explain NT theology.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Proof texting, not exegeting. None of these verses have ever been a problem for Acts 2 disps. MAD makes problems when none exist to try to give answers to support preconceived ideas. The issues of MAD can be refuted with sound theology/exegesis. You also must ignore other verses that do not support your view or reinterpret them to try to support it.

I am surprised that you have not considered alternate interpretations (or that you reject them). They are usually brought up by skeptics who want to make the Bible appear to have contradictions. MAD claims to be one system to resolve these alleged discrepancies, but exegesis does a better job with embracing a problematic paradigm.

The points of THE PLOT are partially right, but others are wrong. So, I will deal with each doctrinal issue on its own merits (cessationism vs continuationism, etc.) without resorting to a simplistic system that sounds good on the surface but falls apart with original language research, non-KJV only texts, context, theological principles (finished work of the cross, etc.).

I am all far mighty Paul, but hyper-disp simply is not the best way to explain NT theology.
Answer them.

And stop acting like I didn't believe otherwise when I joined TOL. You're forgetting that I used to agree with you.
 

Pneuma

New member
This is true based on Christ/cross, Jew/Gentile one in Christ. MAD's two gospel theory actually is a denial of His finished work and creates a caste system in the early church.

I agree, it seems to me that MAD build up the middle wall of partition that Christ tore down.


What it seems to teach is that there is a difference between Jew and gentile in Christ, which is a totally different message then what the gospel tells us.
 

surrender

New member
Regarding why the twelve allegedly didn't follow Jesus' command to make disciples of ALL nations:

Jerusalem, Israel IS one of the “all” nations we are to make disciples. So, obviously the twelve continued to make disciples of “all” nations. Have YOU moved from your nation or even your city to “make disciples of ALL nations”? If not, does that mean you’re not following the directive to make disciples of ALL nations? Of course not!

Regarding James:

A believer is justified by works because it is the ONLY thing that demonstrates genuine faith.
 

Pneuma

New member
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
-Matthew 28:18-20


But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
-Galatians 2:7-9


godrulz answered these scriptures in post 31 when he said

No, this is a demarcation of ministry like you taking the gospel to Americans and me taking the gospel to my fellow Canadians.






And you know full well that James said men were justified by works:

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
-James 2:24

And I made an answer to this point on the link below.


http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86600
 
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