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  • #16
    Originally posted by Tambora View Post
    When is the millennial reign; before or after Christ died on the cross?
    After. It is either now or after he returns. I'm not certain which at this point.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by surrender View Post
      Originally posted by Tambora View Post
      When is the millennial reign; before or after Christ died on the cross?
      After.
      Exactly.
      And yet scripture tells us sacrifices will happen during the millennial reign (ie. after Christ has already died on the cross).


      So, I'm at a loss as to why you would think this ......
      Originally posted by surrender View Post
      To continue slaughtering animals is not only pointless, it’s an affront to Christ’s finished work.



      We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
      They already know monsters exist.
      We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Tambora View Post
        Exactly.
        And yet scripture tells us sacrifices will happen during the millennial reign (ie. after Christ has already died on the cross).


        So, I'm at a loss as to why you would think this ......




        Where does Scripture say sacrifices will take place during the "millennial" reign?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by surrender View Post
          Where does Scripture say sacrifices will take place during the "millennial" reign?
          I already posted it:
          Originally posted by Tambora View Post
          And if one believes that Ezekiel chapters 40 - 48 concerns the millennium reign (which is looooooong after the death of Christ) .....
          Ezekiel 44 KJV
          (15) But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
          Do you not believe that Ezekiel chapters 40-48 are about the millennium?




          And I posted this in the same post:
          Originally posted by Tambora View Post

          A promise of God:
          Jeremiah 33 KJV
          (14) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
          (15) In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
          (16) In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.
          (17) For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
          (18) Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
          (19) And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
          (20) Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
          (21) Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
          Do you not believe this is speaking of the millennium when Israel is restored?

          We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
          They already know monsters exist.
          We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Tambora View Post
            I already posted it:

            Do you not believe that Ezekiel chapters 40-48 are about the millennium?

            And I posted this in the same post:

            Do you not believe this is speaking of the millennium when Israel is restored?
            I think Ezekiel’s temple was conditional. It’s not going to happen as written since the conditions weren’t met.

            Ezekiel received this vision of the temple when Israel was in captivity. Ez. 40:4, “Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.” Why? Ez. 43:10-11, “…describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities…if they are ashamed of all that they have done…write it in their sight so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.”

            Ezekiel was to declare all that he saw and then write it if they repented. They didn't repent. The condition of repentance was not met, so no temple.

            Besides, Ez. 45:17 tells us that the sin offering is to make reconciliation for the house of Israel. Ez. 46:20 says the offering was to sanctify the people. Christ’s sacrifice made reconciliation for and sanctified the people.

            Jer. 33:18 speaks of burnt offerings and sacrifices. Doesn’t mean it has to be animals. KJV says “meat” but what Hebrew word in there is “meat”?
            Last edited by surrender; October 5th, 2012, 11:20 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by surrender View Post
              I think Ezekiel’s temple was conditional. It’s not going to happen as written since the conditions weren’t met.
              OK, hold it right there.

              Why would God even suggest in a vision, as He did (which included sacrifices), if any animal sacrifices after the death of Christ would be abhorrent to Him?

              You seem to think that since Israel has not yet met the conditions, that it will never happen.

              The fact is that the conditions will be met.

              Jeremiah 31 KJV
              (31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
              (32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
              (33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
              (34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
              (35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
              (36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
              (37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
              Verse 35-37 directly relate to verse 20 in Jeremiah chapter 33 (as has already been posted).




              Jer. 33:18 speaks of burnt offerings and sacrifices. Doesn’t mean it has to be animals. KJV says “meat” but what Hebrew word in there is “meat”?
              Burnt offering and meat offering are not the same thing.

              "Meat" offering is a "meal" offering consisting of flour, oil, and frankincense.
              Described in Leviticus 2.

              But a burnt offering was always an animal.
              Depending on the status of the person, it was to be a bullock, or lamb, or goat, or turtledoves.
              Described in Leviticus 1.

              We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
              They already know monsters exist.
              We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Tambora View Post
                You seem to think that since Israel has not yet met the conditions, that it will never happen.
                The conditions were that the exiles at that time would repent for turning their back on God (2 Chron. 36:15-21). Those exiles are now dead.

                Eze 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

                Burnt offering and meat offering are not the same thing.

                "Meat" offering is a "meal" offering consisting of flour, oil, and frankincense.
                Described in Leviticus 2.

                But a burnt offering was always an animal.
                Depending on the status of the person, it was to be a bullock, or lamb, or goat, or turtledoves.
                Described in Leviticus 1.
                Grain offerings are burnt (Lev. 6:23). Jeremiah’s "burnt offerings" don't necessarily mean animals. Besides, sacrifices and burnt offerings can still be made continually without the death of animals.

                Comment


                • #23
                  The last chapters of Ezekiel are about the restoration of Israel.

                  It is not dependent on the shame of Israel. For their shame will come when the restoration happens.


                  God reminds them of their profanity against Him, and why they were scattered.
                  Ezekiel 36 KJV
                  (16) Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
                  (17) Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
                  (18) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
                  (19) And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
                  (20) And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
                  And in spite of their profanity against Him, God will still gather and restore them.
                  God does not do this for the sake of Israel, but does this for HIS own sake.
                  (21) But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
                  (22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
                  (23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
                  God does not cleanse Israel before he gathers them for their restoration.
                  And Israel does not realize the depth of their shame before this happens, but after it happens.

                  In other words, it is not on the merits of Israel that the restoration happens, but is by grace (unmerited favor).
                  (24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
                  (25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
                  (26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
                  (27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
                  (28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
                  (29) I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
                  (30) And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
                  (31) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
                  Again, God reminds them of why He does this.
                  Not for the sake of Israel, but for His own sake.
                  (32) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
                  (33) Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
                  (34) And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
                  (35) And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
                  (36) Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
                  (37) Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
                  (38) As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
                  "I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it"

                  I believe Him.

                  We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
                  They already know monsters exist.
                  We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by surrender View Post
                    Grain offerings are burnt (Lev. 6:23).
                    Yep, but they were not called burnt offerings. They were called meat, grain, meal offerings.



                    Jeremiah’s "burnt offerings" don't necessarily mean animals.
                    Yes, they do.
                    God has already specified what a burnt offering is.

                    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
                    They already know monsters exist.
                    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Tambora View Post
                      ...I believe Him.
                      Tambora, Judah was in Babylonian captivity and here’s the reason:
                      II Chron. 36
                      15The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place;
                      16but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.
                      17Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand.
                      18All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.
                      19Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles.
                      20Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia,
                      21to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.
                      The Lord gave Ezekiel the temple vision while the exiles were in their 25th year of 70 years of captivity. The vision was to be shared with the exiles who sinned against God’s command regarding Sabbaths for the land IF (a condition) they were ashamed of their (the exiles) sin:
                      Eze. 43
                      11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may . . .
                      They had 45 years to prove they were ashamed, but they never displayed any shame for their sin. (At the end of 45 years the exile would end because the land has enjoyed its Sabbaths). Therefore, God was not obligated to fulfill this conditional prophecy regarding the temple vision He gave to Ezekiel. A future generation cannot repent for the sin of the generation of exiles who sinned against God. The temple was to be built for those particular exiles IF they repented of their sin. But that generation of exiles died without seeing such a temple built.

                      The unconditional promises of Ezekiel 36:16-38 don’t mean the temple vision in Ezekiel 40-48 can’t be conditional. Certainly, God’s promise to gather them at the restoration is unconditional. But that doesn’t mean the fulfillment of the temple vision given to Ezekiel was unconditional. Indeed, we see the conditions within the text itself (i.e. shame). We don’t see within the text any posture of shame by the exiles. In other words, the exiles, for whom the vision and temple were meant, never met the required condition.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        The Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifices were shadows of what Israel was to expect in their Messiah (Heb. 10:1). The Levitical priesthood, with the high priest, is a shadow of Israel’s new high priest, Jesus. I don’t see how there would be another Levitical high priest in the future when the reality that cast the shadow has appeared, and Scripture agrees (Heb. 7:11-12, 24). The blood sacrifices for sin were a shadow of the blood sacrifice Israel has in the unblemished Lamb. I don’t see how there would be a need for another blood sacrifice in the future when the reality that cast the shadow has appeared and Scripture agrees (Heb. 9:26; 10:1, 10, 12, 14, 18).

                        Again, the Levitical priesthood is a shadow of a reality that is now present. The promise that the Levitical priesthood will be everlasting is fulfilled in the Body of Christ according to Peter and John:

                        “…you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 2:5).

                        “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession” (1 Peter 2:9)

                        “…and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father” (Rev. 1:6)

                        “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God and they will reign on the earth” (Rev. 5:10).

                        We can even see Paul implying that the Body of Christ is a “people for God’s own possession” (i.e. holy, set apart) just as Peter said they were a “people for God’s own possession” (i.e. a royal priesthood):

                        “…who gave himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds” (Titus 2:14).

                        The promise of the everlasting covenant with Israel is fulfilled beginning with the believing remnant of Israel (i.e. the twelve disciples, et al.), extending to the Gentiles who are brought into the fold, and ending with the last generation (i.e. the “all” Israel saved at Jesus’ coming).

                        Comment

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