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For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained
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Sheila B
Member
We can add John the Baptist to the list above. So, we have the foreunner (Elijah), Jesus Himself, and The Twelve and other apostles and deacons Acts 6:6 ordained into the Acts 2:38 and all the OT and Gospels and well into the Church age so far saying the same message, basically.
Does Romans 4:5 necessarily mean all the above is not true? Does Paul indeed mean to bring on a new way to eternal life than all that has gone on before? As has been said this is the million dollar question of MAD.
So far, I do not see Paul doing anything new. I am up to Acts 15 and the apostles Barnabas and Paul have been ordained by the Church of Antioch after being with that congregation for over a year, and being sent by that church and the HS into their first missionary journey Acts 13:4 and ordaining elders in these Churches Acts 14:23
Paul and Baranbas ordained these elders in their congregations on their swing back through these areas to make a loop back to antioch. So, some time had gone by from their first preaching to each synagogue and Greeks Acts 14:1 So, there would have been two or three gathered in Jesus Name for each congregation to choose an elder for themselves. But they still needed at least 2 apostles to do the ordination ceremony for it to be valid. Paul defends his validity as a properly prdained minister of the gospel over and over again; he would be defending these men also, since they received their powers from Barnabas and Paul.
At the end of this first missionary journey they are referring to a door of faith being opened for the Gentiles.
They are ordaining elders with prayer and fasting, the same way they themselves came into the apostleship. Paul references his laying on of hands to impart the gift to Timothy, so it is the same service Barnabas and Paul recieved themselves at their ordination of Acts 13:2,3
So far, all the leaders of the church are Jews. Paul has not yet written any letters to anyone anywhere and where does the new message begin? It still seems like the first church council coming up will have more clues. Everything is Kingdom oriented still.
Sheila B
Member
Just beginning this list of apostles for clues. By Romans 16:7 we see Paul references apostles who were in Christ before me. That would mean they were baptized the kingdom way, since they came before Paul into Christ.
These are Greek names are they not? All these churches are of Christ Romans 16:16 Quite a long list and many Greek names. By this late date (compared to Acts 15 where I personally, in this study, have yet to enter the council of Jerusalem) of the writing of this letter, the church seems to have not only "opened a door of faith" to the Gentiles but they are ordained into the highest office of the church; and not by Paul, but by other apostles from other churches.
Does the Bible itself tell us when and where Paul wrote all his epistles? It seems crucial to have the dates and places to look at the message he preached to see where the non-Acts 2:38 message begins.
Sheila B
Member
We first see Silas at the council of Jerusalem, when the whole leadership of the church are of one mind and heart regarding the Law of Circumscision for the Gentile believers (no comment about the Jewish believers yet) and the Kosher food Laws Acts 15:24 and Acts 15:25 so there is agreement at last from headquarters, we might say.
Acts 15:22 and Acts 15:23 names the regions that will receive this document from the authority given the leaders by the One High Priest. These are the areas that Paul and Barnabas set up congregations that are vaild.
Are Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia as far as Paul and Barnabas or other apostles have gone so far, at Acts 15?
Acts 11:19 Phonecia and Cyprus and Antioch
These are outside the Tribal areas of the Jews. Between Acts 11 and Acts 15 about how many years have gone by?
Sheila B
Member
john w;2091681) “Nor of men sought we glory said:
I Thess 2:6 is written by Paul, Silas and Timothy.
The MAD mystery must become clear (as far as straightening out the churches in these regions already mentioned) between Acts 15:25 and this letter, right?
When was I Thess written? Where are Paul and Timothy and Silas when they write to the Thessalonians?
Sheila B
Member
The Author of Life was put to death that we too might die and be raised with Him to new life.
Genesis 2:7 the old man, Adam
John 20:22 the New Man, Jesus Christ
Sheila B
Member
Hebrews has traditionally been ascribed to Paul, but I can see how that might not be true at all, since it is more of a general teaching letter (encyclical- circling the churches all over the world) rather than a specific set of problems, as Puls letters seem to be.
Hebrews 13:23 mentions Timothy being released. Paul might very well be long dead here.
Hebrews 13:24 maybe it is written from Rome or somewhere in Italy.
It is a personally written document: I appeal to you brethren...
Hebrews 13:22
Does Hebrews 11:1,2,3 sound like a blending of the messages of Kingdom and Body?
When is Timothy in prison? Does anyone know when Hebrews is written?
Obviously the author of Hebrews is quite concerned that all the churches understand the message of Melchesidek and how the fullness of that prophecy has come to be in Christ.
Hebrews 10:1,14
Sheila B
Member
Before we meet Apollos has Paul's message changed?
The prison guard is told that if he believes he and his whole household will be saved. A community will be accepted by the head of the household's belief. Acts 16:30
Acts 16:31 That is an interesting point. A partiarchal society would have no division in Paul's mind. Or is it something else? Paul and Silas do "speak the word of the Lord" to them all Acts 16:32
Acts 16:33 according to this, baptism is still given; we do not know if tongues of fire appear still or if these receive the gifts as at Pentecost, but there is nothing in this verse to mean anything is different in this profession of faith as at the first Acts 2:38 or am I missing something? If water were left out of this baptism, it would need to say so? Acts 10:47
The Council of Jerusalem made no changes regarding water. Acts 15:25
Then in Athens, we hear the same message: Acts 17:17,18
Acts 17:30
Acts 17:31 the message is the same here
Acts 18:4
Acts 18:6 Paul has done this in every city and town so far. The Jews get the message first and also Gentiles. This does seem to fit the command of Jesus' to go to Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria and the ends of the world.
Each town and city represents all these spiritual types of people, in a sort of heirarchy: Jews always first, and whoever has been a God-fearer with the Jews (as we see many Gentiles do go to the synagogues and are kept apart, like the women's area, etc.-as The Temple had a Court of the Women, and a Court of the Gentiles -built by Solomon and Herod's temple also had this), and so on.
First we meet Titus Justus, a worshiper of God, a God-fearer; so not a Jew. And the leader of the Synagogue of Corinth believes. Acts 18:8
This is the first time we see a leader of the synagogue who is a Believer. No comments about a new way yet? They believe and "are baptised". No embellishments as to what it means to "be baptised" at this point. Paul stays a year and 6 months with them (long enough to ordain an apostle and deacons, perhaps-my note).
Sosthenes, a ruler of the synagogue according to Acts 18:17
Does this mean another synagogue of Corinth? No doubt, a large city would have many synagogues. A Jew had to be able to walk to the synagogue daily for prayers; pious Jews would go several times a day for the prayers if they were able. Acts 3:1
The author of Acts surely knows we know what he means by this time? If it is different, would we not be told so?
Sheila B
Member
Silas shows up as early as Acts 15 and is a leading man in the Council, but he might not be Gentile. At Acts 15 they are still marveling that a door of faith has been opened to the Gentiles Acts 14:27 Not likely a non-Jew would be a leader; perhaps he was a convert to Judaism some time earlier? It is still questionable (to me anyway).
Titus is the first for sure Gentile who becomes an apostle according to Acts, as he is called a worshiper of God. Definitely a non-Jew.
Sheila B
Member
Re: Trumpets: Shofar
Maybe they have. The Trumpet was a symbol of God's Voice calling the People on Mt. Siani.
Exodus 19:13 The Trumpet was with thunders, lightnings, and a thick cloud...on the morning of the Third day Ex 19:16
This was fulfilled in John the Baptist who was a voice crying out in the wilderness. A call to repentance. Yet, there will be another fulfillment when Elijah comes at the end of time to preach a call to repentance.
The Voice also came from heaven and said: This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased. Also The voice came to Mt. Tabor and told Peter, James and John: This is My Son, listen to Him!
The Baptism of Jesus and the Transfiguration were fulfillments.
Hebrews 12:18,19
But you have come to...
Hebrews 12:22
We have received that Kingdom... Hebrews 12:28
Mt. Zion is the church. All OT prophecy pointed to the One who would rule the world with a rod of iron from Mt. Zion.
The Shofar is blown calling the people to prepare for the Day of Atonement and it is the Jewish New Year.
Jesus brought that atonement for the whole world and atoned for man because no one was found in heaven, on earth or under the earth but the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The New Way has begun.
Sheila B
Member
Day of Atonement:
John 20:21,22,23 brought on:
Acts 1:9 and 10 days later... (symbolized by the Ten Days of Awe between Shofar and Yom Kippur)
Acts 2:2,3,4
and Acts 2:38,41
But there is still a final fulfilling: Rev 20:12
According to Yom Kippur these Three books are opened for a yearly accounting. (Jesus has made it possible that the door of faith has finally opened for all men.) The Ten Days of Awe:
The Three Books of The Ten Days of Awe: The first Book has the truly righteous written.
The Second Book has the just men who need to be made perfect by repentance and God's mercy
The Third Book has the wicked who will not attain to eternal life by their own choice.
Yom Kippur is the Final sentencing: Matthew 25:40,41 and
Matthew 25:45,46
Tabernacles was fulfilled:
Luke 9:32 and Luke 9:33
and
Luke 24:39
Luke 24:31
But there is still a final fulfilling:
Tabernacles- Rev 21:23,26,27
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Sheila B
Member
That is what I see also. Fulfilled in Christ and still a fulfillment to come where all will see without Faith what they have agreed to follow during their lives: Jesus or Satan. Then the final sentencing.
Technically, the atonement for man is the Cross. One sacrifice for sins. Hebrews 10:14
Nothing that Jesus taught Paul made anything that anyone did prior to that, including Jesus Himself, untrue. So the answer to the first question would be: absolutely not.
Paul didn't bring on a new way of eternal life. The way to be accepted by God under the kingdom program was to have faith in God/Jesus and for that faith to do what God said...keep the law. But with Israel's continued rejection, God put a halt to that program. For He had told them before...
Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." Ex. 19:5-6
And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. Jer. 18:9-10
"I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'" Luke 13:5-9
So according to His own words, He was not obligated to keep things moving along according to plan. And the Luke 13 parable is clear; He would give them through the year after the 3-year ministry of Jesus (the "keeper") to produce fruit and would then cut them down if there was none.And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. Jer. 18:9-10
"I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'" Luke 13:5-9
With the changes that we can read in Acts (the way in which events strayed from the flow of prophecy), then it should be clear that the threat of the Luke 13 parable came to pass as Jesus said. It's especially noteworthy that the means for receiving the Spirit changed, as we see Cornelius and his household receive the Spirit BEFORE being baptized, as was the command prior to that.
With these changes, things are progressively revealed to us the reader and to the people of the world at the time. For we can see how one received remission of sins and the Holy Spirit prior to Paul. But after Paul's conversion, even though you're so right in that we see baptism and other Jewish practices still very much in play, the means of justification had become belief only, as opposed to faith and works.
So you're certainly right in that Romans 4:5 (written at the time of Acts 20) absolutely does not make anything prior to that untrue. But it does demonstrate, along with: Cornelius' conversion; Paul's teaching on justification to the Pisidian Antioch Jews/Gentiles (Acts 13:38); the conclusion of the Jerusalem council in Acts 15; the post-Acts teaching to the Ephesians on salvation (Eph. 2:8-9); and a host of other teachings by Paul...that God began a significant change with Paul's conversion. Again, Paul said:
However for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. I Tim. 1:16
The message to the Pisidian Antioch Jews/Gentiles contained the gospel of God, which was what Peter preached. But it didn't include a requirement to "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" as did Peter's message. That's because Paul was teaching justification apart from any works. So he began back then with a "morphed" message (not entirely new, for sure). And for those that believed it, he would expound upon it with the things we see in the epistles which stand often times in stark contrast to the things written by Peter, James, the author of Hebrews, etc.
Sheila B
Member
Excellent. I am greatly releaved to know it.
Thanks for the nice post. I will study it later.
amosman
New member
What came first the chicken or the egg ? What came first faith and righteousness or faith plus works then righteousness ? According to Paul, Abraham believed first and was righteous. Even before circumcision. Isn't Abraham the father of all the faithful ? The Jews that had the law were saved by faith first. The works of the law would mean nothing if not mixed with faith.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith
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Examine the weight of the evidence:
1. Mystery:kept secret/silent, hidden since the world began:
.“Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.” Romans 16:25-27
“But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.’ 1 Cor. 2:7-8
“For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: “ Eph.3:1-9(unsearcheable=not traceable- forget about looking for it in the OT)
“Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:” Col. 1:25-27
“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,” 2 Timothy 1:9
“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” Titus 1:2
Vs
The 12 and the disciples received revelation before Paul, but not the revelation of the mystery.
Prophecy spoken about since the world began:
"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:..." Luke 1:68-70
"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." Acts 3:21
“Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:” Mt. 25:34
Paul says the mystery was held in silence. Something cannot be both spoken about, and, at the same time, kept silent-not if we are under the assumption that rationality is to be employed. Nothing of this had been previously revealed. Whatever the mystery is, it cannot be anything taught, prophesied or described prior to the revelation given to the apostle Paul. The unprecedented revelation of the Mystery (or the secret) to Paul pertain to a heretofore unrevealed gospel, not "Moses'/Peter's gospel", but rather Paul's gospel,which he called "my gospel" and that the two are vastly different. Paul's good message, the Mystery, had been held in silence since the foundation of the world, whereas "Moses'/Peter's gospel" began to be revealed to Abraham, and continued throughout the nation Israel's history-all "the" gospels (and there is more than one are the Lord Jesus Christ's "gospels", but each pertains to a different household of elect (Gentiles/nations, Israel and the Body of Christ, respectively) and presents a distinctive household law (the meaning of "dispensation").
Being "held in silence" cannot merely refer to "fuller revelation." Paul's language is strong: there is absolutely no trace, "unsearcheable," of the Mystery to be found in the Law and the prophets, hidden from ages and from generations., but NOW revealed, to Paul, first, and then manifest to "his" saints.
2. Hint: Look at the order-
"apostles and prophets ,"not "prophets and apostles."
I need to clarify. I said "Paul didn't bring in a new way of eternal life". I meant to expound upon that but forgot to.
God laid out the means for justification prior to Paul. And from His position in the heavenlies, Jesus revealed to Paul the means for justification under the dispensation of grace. It was a different means than under the kingdom program. The way to eternal life would be based upon belief in Jesus, for sure, under either the dispensation of the gospel of the kingdom or under the dispensation of grace. But the requirements of what that faith looked like was different under each.
So Paul didn't bring in anything new of his own volition. He followed what Jesus taught Him. And Jesus Himself introduced a change.
God laid out the means for justification prior to Paul. And from His position in the heavenlies, Jesus revealed to Paul the means for justification under the dispensation of grace. It was a different means than under the kingdom program. The way to eternal life would be based upon belief in Jesus, for sure, under either the dispensation of the gospel of the kingdom or under the dispensation of grace. But the requirements of what that faith looked like was different under each.
So Paul didn't bring in anything new of his own volition. He followed what Jesus taught Him. And Jesus Himself introduced a change.
Amen, brother John!