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For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained

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  • deleted by Tambora
    Last edited by Tambora; August 7th, 2015, 08:55 PM.

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tambora View Post
      What worries me is that you don't think we are with Christ now.
      I never said that! If you think that I did then quote me.

      Trust me, Jerry, I will get to the Greek and show that the verse does not HAVE TO be about a physical location.
      Why didn't you do it in your last post, you know, the post where you misrepresented my beliefs?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by chickenman View Post



        Conditional timing

        God also later said, through Paul, that the promises were irrevocable.
        For the gifts (to Israel, in context) and calling of God are without repentance. Rom. 1:29

        @chickenman

        A little correction as a number was left off.

        This should be Romans 11:29 instead of Romans 1:29.

        We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
        They already know monsters exist.
        We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by SaulToPaul View Post
          Howdy, bro!
          If Randy doesn't mind, I'll take a stab at this.

          Here's the initial promise to Abraham:

          Genesis 12
          1: Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
          2: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
          3: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

          Immediately, we can see that there are two groups involved. A "great nation" and "the families (or nations) of the earth".

          Fast forward a little.

          Genesis 15
          4: And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
          5: And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
          6: And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

          So, Abraham, a heathen, yet uncircumcised, was counted as righteous by faith alone. No action was required in believing God's promise.

          Moving ahead, God changes his name from Abram to Abraham and...

          Genesis 17
          10: This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
          11: And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
          12: And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

          14: And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

          The covenant of circumcision is given to Abraham, and an action IS required to remain in this covenant.

          So, within the umbrella of the Abrahamic covenant, Gen 12:1-3, God is now beginning to set apart the "great nation" within that covenant.

          From Gen 17 forward, it's all about the circumcision. It's all about getting that "great nation" through whom the nations of the earth would be blessed.

          Well, the Messiah comes to the circumcision. The majority reject him, he's crucified, buried, risen, and ascended. Israel continues to reject the ministry of the Holy Spirit in early Acts, Israel is fallen.

          But, God raises up another apostle with a message that was hidden in the scriptures concerning Gentiles, the uncircumcision.

          Gal 3
          5: He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
          6: Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
          7: Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
          8: And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
          9: So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

          So, instead of blessing the nations of the world through the rise of that "great nation", they are blessed through the fall of that "great nation"...and, he can do it by their faith alone.

          During Acts, you have two groups. Both are the children of Abraham, and both fall under the umbrella of the Abrahamic covenant. One group, a nation, are children of Abraham (in circumcision). The other group, a Body, are children of Abraham (in uncircumcision). The covenant of circumcision requires action, works. No action is required of the uncircumcision.

          You can follow these two groups through the book of Acts. You can see the circumcision being diminished, you can see the uncircumcision growing.

          The two groups are clearly seen here,

          Gal 2
          7: But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
          8: (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: )
          9: And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

          In Galatians, Paul contrasts the two covenants which spawn these two groups. He contrasts the Abrahamic covenant with the Mosaic (the circumcision). The promise is unto both, the Jerusalem above which is free, is the mother of them all.

          Hope this helps...
          Worth a repeat.

          We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
          They already know monsters exist.
          We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

          Comment


          • This has got to be the best teaching about MAD on the site.
            He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

            Jim Elliot

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
              This has got to be the best teaching about MAD on the site.
              Amen.

              We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
              They already know monsters exist.
              We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Interplanner
                They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
                Originally posted by Interplanner
                You're too literal to get it.
                Originally posted by Interplanner
                The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                  This has got to be the best teaching about MAD on the site.
                  I have known MANY MADs over the years.

                  The result of my own research over the years into the origins of MAD as a teaching.

                  I came to know what MANY MADs and their Pastors hold to on such things, and that they spread via various outreach ministries, as a result.

                  MOST of the MANY Mid-Acts based assemblies spread throughout the U.S. and beyond do NOT hold that ANY part of the Mystery was hidden in the OT.

                  Neither do ANY of their outreach assemblies.

                  NEITHER do ANY of the three or four schools dedicated to training Mid-Acts Based Pastors and Teachers.

                  The founder of the teaching asserted in the post you are responding to (the late E. C. Moore, rip) was proven an erroneous hybrid, or mix of Acts 9 with Acts 28 Dispensationalism, by the sharpest minds within MAD, at a conference, over forty years ago.

                  Only in the last few years has said error made a resurgence, and the pattern in study approach is the same in every assertion I and other, actual MADs have read or heard taught by such: a consistent pattern of having deviated from the overall flow of thought of Luke's and or Paul's narrative.

                  Oddly, the erroneous assertion made by such about Galatians 3: 8, is the exact same error that the poster Interplanner, was ever asserting about Eph. 3:6.

                  Error is like that: ever unable to recognize itself in the error of another.

                  Nevertheless, Romans 5:6-9.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by assuranceagent View Post
                    Hey Randy...glad you decided to do this thread! I've been bouncing little tidbits off of you and STP for a while now but it'll be good to focus on this for a while...

                    The first question that springs to mind:

                    In talking to STP recently, he helped me understand the distinction between the gospel of the Kingdom and the gospel of uncircumcision. (And I think it's clear that they are two different gospels...on that much I'm right there with you guys...)

                    It seems to me, though, that Paul indicates that Abraham, in particular and among others, was accounted righteous on the basis of his faith, just as we are. Now clearly his faith took different form than ours must since he was looking forward to Messiah while we get to look both ways. The question, though, has to do with the requirement for salvation during what I recognize as the dispensation of the Promise, or the time of the Abrahamic covenant.

                    It seems that you guys see the gospel of the Kingdom as a kind of development on the Abrahamic covenant, being the promise of earthly reward in exchange (at least in part) for obedience. Yet Paul seems to make a point of the fact that it was Abraham's faith that saved him, and not his works.

                    I'll leave James out for now since, if I understand correctly, in writing to the twelve tribes, he is preaching the gospel of the Kingdom...

                    So according to MAD, prior to and following this, sort of "parenthetical" dispensation of the gospel of uncircumcision, were works once a necessary ingredient for the salvation of men and will they be again?

                    Thanks Randy!
                    Acts 26:21 KJV For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. 22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

                    Amen!
                    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

                    @Nee_Nihilo

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                      Acts 26:21 KJV For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. 22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

                      Amen!
                      The words you quoted of Paul were spoken in defense of the charges against him that he was a mover of sedition among the Jews (Acts 24:5). Paul said that what he was teaching to the Jews came straight from the OT and therefore he did nothing wrong.

                      The gospel Paul preached to the Jews was based on what the prophets foretold (Ro.1:1-2) while the gospel which he preached to the Gentiles was bases on truths that had not been revealed and had been kept secret:

                      "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory"
                      (1 Cor.2:7-8).

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                        The words you quoted of Paul were spoken in defense of the charges against him that he was a mover of sedition among the Jews (Acts 24:5). Paul said that what he was teaching to the Jews came straight from the OT and therefore he did nothing wrong.

                        The gospel Paul preached to the Jews was based on what the prophets foretold (Ro.1:1-2) while the gospel which he preached to the Gentiles was bases on truths that had not been revealed and had been kept secret:

                        "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory"
                        (1 Cor.2:7-8).
                        The Gospel that Paul preached was given to Him by revelation from Jesus Christ.

                        Galatians 1:11-12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                        Paul Defends His Ministry
                        11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

                        And this is the gospel he preached.

                        1 Corinthians 15:1-4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                        The Fact of Christ’s Resurrection
                        15 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast [a]the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.3 For I delivered to you [b]as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
                        He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                        Jim Elliot

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                          The Gospel that Paul preached was given to Him by revelation from Jesus Christ.
                          Are you speaking about the gospel he preached that was promised by the OT prophets (Ro.1:1-2) or the gospel which was kept secret since the world began (Ro.16:25)?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                            Are you speaking about the gospel he preached that was promised by the OT prophets (Ro.1:1-2) or the gospel which was kept secret since the world began (Ro.16:25)?
                            I didn't realize that there were two Gospel preached by the apostle Paul.
                            He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                            Jim Elliot

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                              I didn't realize that there were two Gospel preached by the apostle Paul.
                              I can only understand that the gospel of which Paul writes about at Romans 1:1-2 is not the same one of which he speaks at Romans 16:25 since the first was promised by the OT prophets and the second was kept secret since the world began.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                                I didn't realize that there were two Gospel preached by the apostle Paul.
                                Hi BR,

                                Actually, Paul preached three gospels, but let's just look at the two in the book of Romans since that is where we can see two of them. Romans 1:1-4 KJV is the gospel of God, the WHO of Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead. This was what the Romans "faith" was in (Romans 1:8 KJV), but not the WHY of the cross/Paul's gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began, but then at that time/"but now is made manifest,..." (Romans 16:25-26 KJV) that they needed to stablish them into the Body of Christ (the gospel of Christ being the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth, to the Jew first and also to the Greek at that time). It's the purpose of Paul's letter unto them.

                                Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
                                Romans 1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
                                Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
                                Romans 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
                                Romans 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
                                Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
                                Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

                                Paul's gospel is WHY Christ died. It's declared in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV; how that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day. It's summarized in Romans 4:25 KJV.
                                2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

                                Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

                                Comment

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