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Diversity among the kinds. 

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  • Diversity among the kinds. 

    God created and He created by kinds.

    What role if any do viruses play in our diversity?

    We know that viruses can affect the information in our genetic code.

    We know that God gave us an immune system to ward off viruses of certain kind(s) and more importantly not other kinds.

    Diversity among the kinds is affected by many things, but perhaps viruses are a major contributor to the diversity found in the creation? Do viruses add or subtract to our rich genetic pools? I say add.

    At Babel, perhaps everyone would have looked basically the same because they all had the same viruses. At babel, if there were many races, it may not have been as important to confuse the languages. The races would have caused diversity/division and confusing the languages might have been avoided. People would have divided by race as we do today, but that was not happening according to the account in Genesis. As the groups isolated by languages, the virus pools would then be isolated. Over time the viruses contribute to the genetic make up of the group. Perhaps, that dynamic is what largely made the races.

    Dogs are all dogs. The different breads/races of dogs would have been affected in the exact same way.

    Different races are affected differently by different "kinds" of viruses.

    Seeds and viruses have a few things in common . . . Perhaps, the term "seed" in Genesis has a broader meaning?

    Viruses were created by God, in always thinking God's thoughts after Him, creationist need to discover the good in them.

  • #2
    Fascinating Mike! I just went to rsr.org and clicked on our Google Creation Tool, the Multiple Creation Site Search and found five articles with the "good viruses" search. I'm sure other similar searches will find other even more from the creation movement. Frank Sherwin is a parasitologist, I think they're called. That is, he can have five or six really gross thoughts before breakfast. I do think you're correct, that part of God's design for viruses is to share genetic information, responsive to enivornmental opportunities, between organisms.

    The Bob Enyart Live talk show airs at KGOV.com weekdays at 5 pm E.T. Also, same time, same station, check out Theology Thursday (.com) and on Fridays, Real Science Radio (.com) a.k.a. rsr.org. All shows are available 24/7 and you can call us at at 1-800-8Enyart.

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    • #3
      Only race that matters is the human race. God made us all different. We are not a mistake. God never ever makes mistakes.
      Happy November to Remember!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
        God created and He created by kinds.

        What role if any do viruses play in our diversity?

        We know that viruses can affect the information in our genetic code.

        We know that God gave us an immune system to ward off viruses of certain kind(s) and more importantly not other kinds.

        Diversity among the kinds is affected by many things, but perhaps viruses are a major contributor to the diversity found in the creation? Do viruses add or subtract to our rich genetic pools? I say add.

        At Babel, perhaps everyone would have looked basically the same because they all had the same viruses. At babel, if there were many races, it may not have been as important to confuse the languages. The races would have caused diversity/division and confusing the languages might have been avoided. People would have divided by race as we do today, but that was not happening according to the account in Genesis. As the groups isolated by languages, the virus pools would then be isolated. Over time the viruses contribute to the genetic make up of the group. Perhaps, that dynamic is what largely made the races.

        Dogs are all dogs. The different breads/races of dogs would have been affected in the exact same way.

        Different races are affected differently by different "kinds" of viruses.

        Seeds and viruses have a few things in common . . . Perhaps, the term "seed" in Genesis has a broader meaning?

        Viruses were created by God, in always thinking God's thoughts after Him, creationist need to discover the good in them.
        What evidence is there that viruses have anything to do with creating the kind of differences that we would associate with the different "races" of human beings? Where has there ever been a virus that created a different shade of skin tone, eye color or muscle density? Where has there been an example of someone giving birth to a child that looked appreciably different than the child's own parents, nevermind his "racial" characteristics having been caused or even effected by any sort of infectious disease process?

        Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that viruses have some important role to play in God's creation, I'm just very skeptical about the notion that they have an important role to play in the divergent characteristics of the various races of human beings. Environmental stresses or the lack thereof (e.g. extremes of temperature or exposure to sun light or whatever) seem a more likely cause of certain genes turning on or off thereby presenting physical characteristics that fit the environment the people find themselves in.

        I know next to nothing about viruses though, so maybe there's a process going on that I know nothing about. If you know of it, even if it's just theoretical, I'd be fascinated to read about it.

        Clete
        sigpic
        "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Clete View Post


          Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that viruses have some important role to play in God's creation, I'm just very skeptical about the notion that they have an important role to play in the divergent characteristics of the various races of human beings. Environmental stresses or the lack thereof (e.g. extremes of temperature or exposure to sun light or whatever) seem a more likely cause of certain genes turning on or off thereby presenting physical characteristics that fit the environment the people find themselves in.

          I know next to nothing about viruses though, so maybe there's a process going on that I know nothing about. If you know of it, even if it's just theoretical, I'd be fascinated to read about it.

          Clete
          Explaining our differences by "environmental" factors doesn't make any sense to me.

          The environment or can we just say entropy only goes in one direction. But with the races/breeds I think you can argue that some characteristics may have gotten better or at least warded off entropy more than others. Perhaps viruses help ward off the effects of environmental degradation?

          We know so little about viruses but we do know God created and it was and is good.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

            Explaining our differences by "environmental" factors doesn't make any sense to me.

            The environment or can we just say entropy only goes in one direction.
            I don't think it has anything to do with entropy.

            I think that all the variation that we see in various racial types, whether its skin pigmentation or muscle tone or the facial shape or height or body fat or whatever, has always been present in the genome and various environmental stresses can cause certain genes to turn on or off permitting people in Africa to endure excessive sun light or the people in Scandinavia to endure colder temperatures or whatever.

            Of course there is also societal pressures that can account for various traits as well. If the society in which you live considered it beautiful to have flatter facial features then those who have more prominent features will not be considered beautiful and won't mate as successfully or may leave in search of a more welcoming place to live and before long most everyone has more or less flat facial features.

            Interestingly, the genes responsible for facial features or skin color or whatever may also have an effect on other seemingly unrelated things, such as personality traits or propensity for heart disease or any number of other possible things. It's very very complex and as such it isn't surprising to find such a great diversity of different "races" of people.

            But with the races/breeds I think you can argue that some characteristics may have gotten better or at least warded off entropy more than others. Perhaps viruses help ward off the effects of environmental degradation?
            Perhaps. I don't see how but that doesn't mean anything. Like I said, I pretty much know nothing about virology.

            We know so little about viruses but we do know God created and it was and is good.
            Well, yes and no. Even the most sever tornadic thunderstorm cloud still has it's silver lining but I don't think I'd be trying to point that out to someone who's house just got flattened with their family inside. The reality is that the vast majority of viruses do not cause disease at all and may even serve a very vital purpose but that doesn't mean that disease causing viruses aren't a tragic thing that we are forced to deal with in, and because of, this fallen world we live in.
            sigpic
            "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Clete View Post
              I don't think it has anything to do with entropy.

              I think that all the variation that we see in various racial types, whether its skin pigmentation or muscle tone or the facial shape or height or body fat or whatever, has always been present in the genome and various environmental stresses can cause certain genes to turn on or off permitting people in Africa to endure excessive sun light or the people in Scandinavia to endure colder temperatures or whatever.
              Again, "environmental stresses" is entropy. You or someone created the term your using to create a means to your end. "Environmental stresses" don't/can't add or protect usable information from degradation in a genome.

              Lets say a certain breed of dog has better since of smell than another, which is indeed often the case. How did that dog's sense of smell get to an advanced place? Or perhaps how did that breed of dog loose a smaller margin of its original since of smell as did every other breed of dog? For that to happen, you have to add or at least protect information in that breeds DNA. You can't arrive at our present location without some sort of adding and or protecting information in the dog's genome. Viruses provide a plausible scenario for that type of genetic mechanism to add and or protect DNA.

              While our immune system does 99 percent of the job in protecting our DNA, what keeps our immune system intact? Perhaps, viruses provide our immune system the exercise it needs to keep us healthy?

              In the beginning God created and it was good and is still good If the context for you life is not Gen 1:1 well your life is based on a pretext.

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              • #8
                Hey Bob! So great to hear from you . . . ! RSR is a great resource of which I stand upon daily! (along with your shoulders) Mike

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

                  Again, "environmental stresses" is entropy.
                  No it isn't. When certain genes that were already present express themselves due to environmental stresses, or the lack thereof, that is not a down grade or break down or any sort of degradation of the human genome or any other aspect of the human condition.

                  You or someone created the term your using to create a means to your end. "Environmental stresses" don't/can't add or protect usable information from degradation in a genome.
                  Your premise is flawed.

                  In what way is it any sort of degradation in the human genome?

                  Is a German Shepard any less of a dog than a wolf from which it is descended? The cause of the selective breeding is different in dogs than it has been in humans but it is essential the same thing. Speaking in general terms, there is nothing new in the German Shepherd that wasn't already present in the wolf nor is what was present in the wolf absent from the German Shepard. They are simply two variations of the same theme. They are two kinds of dog, neither superior nor inferior to the other.

                  Lets say a certain breed of dog has better sense of smell than another, which is indeed often the case. How did that dog's sense of smell get to an advanced place? Or perhaps how did that breed of dog loose a smaller margin of its original sense of smell as did every other breed of dog? For that to happen, you have to add or at least protect information in that breeds DNA. You can't arrive at our present location without some sort of adding and or protecting information in the dog's genome. Viruses provide a plausible scenario for that type of genetic mechanism to add and or protect DNA.
                  I don't know whether virus could have such an effect or not. I've never heard anyone ever postulate it as even a possibility and so I suspect that it is speculation and as such perhaps its right and perhaps its not but, as I said a moment ago, your premise here is incorrect.

                  It does not require any sort of atrophy or degradation of the genome for one kind of dog to have a less acute sense of smell than another. A diminished sense of smell may have (and actually does have) to do with the size and shape of the dogs face and head, which are controlled by genes that have nothing to do (directly) with the sensitivity of the sense of smell. In other words, a Pug may have just as acutely sensitive smell receptors in his nose as any other dog but because of the shape of his face and the size of his head, he simply hasn't room enough to have the number of receptors that a Blood Hound has nor does the Pug has the droopy ears that help funnel scent molecules to his face that the Blood House has.

                  In short, one kind of dog is not better or worse than another, its simply different. There is no grounds for declaring any of those differences degradation. Of course there are exceptions to this that have to do with actual disease processes that are genetic in origin. Things like hip dysplasia, blood disorders, cancers, etc and while such things are certainly due to a degree of genetic entropy, they do not define different breeds and do not arise for the same reason, in either dogs or humans.

                  While our immune system does 99 percent of the job in protecting our DNA, what keeps our immune system intact? Perhaps, viruses provide our immune system the exercise it needs to keep us healthy?
                  Not just viruses but all sort of germs. I've head many people suggest that the reason allergies have become such a problem for so many people is because we live such clean lives in modern society and that, as a result, our immune system over reacts to things that it might otherwise ignore thereby causing symptoms that mimic disease processes like runny nose, sneezing and the like. People who grow up on farms, dealing with cattle and working in the dirt, usually don't ever develop allergies like city dwellers do.

                  In the beginning God created and it was good and is still good If the context for you life is not Gen 1:1 well your life is based on a pretext.
                  I agree with you except for one point.

                  Where in Genesis chapter one does it ever say "it was good and is still good"?

                  Doesn't your own entropy premise suggest that it is not still good or at least not as good as it was?

                  Clete
                  Last edited by Clete; May 6, 2020, 12:35 PM.
                  sigpic
                  "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Clete View Post


                    Where in Genesis chapter one does it ever say "it was good and is still good"?

                    Doesn't your own entropy premise suggest that it is not still good or at least not as good as it was?

                    Clete
                    Well, I think creation is still good, so that was my take on creation. In fact, I think creation is still the most amazing thing despite the downward spiral of entropy. As I live life I don't/can't notice the affects of entropy so . . . yes creation is still GOOD!

                    I hope you are not suggesting that I said that "it is still good" was in the Bible . . . of course I didn't.

                    Back to your point about environmental pressures (what ever that is) . Lets stick with dogs so that no one can say either of us is a racist or bigoted in any way. Dogs come in all sizes, all shapes and with various abilities. Can you give me a couple of the differences in dogs that came by the way of "environmental pressures" .



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                    • #11
                      Sorry for the slow response! Work has limited my time here lately!

                      Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
                      Well, I think creation is still good, so that was my take on creation. In fact, I think creation is still the most amazing thing despite the downward spiral of entropy. As I live life I don't/can't notice the affects of entropy so . . . yes creation is still GOOD!
                      Yes, indeed it is. My only point was that it isn't good in the same sense that it when God said it in Genesis. It isn't AS good. There are parts of it that are corrupted, not the least of which is disease and all manner of death.

                      I hope you are not suggesting that I said that "it is still good" was in the Bible . . . of course I didn't.
                      No, it was just a way of stating the issue.

                      Back to your point about environmental pressures (what ever that is) .
                      Environmental pressures are things like the local climate and availability of food, shelter and other resources both man made and otherwise.

                      If the bottom of your feet are soft and it hurts to walk on rocks of any sort, that's because of an environmental pressure (or the lack thereof). If you lived your life barefooted, the bottom of your feet would be anything but soft and tender. That's not a genetic example but it gives the idea. Your genes respond in a similar fashion by switching either on or off depending on various external stimuli.

                      In addition to that, people who are genetically better equipped to survive the cold will do better in place like Scandinavia, for example, and are more likely to pass on their genes to a next generation. Even a small effect in such a genetic direction will rather quickly create a population that is genetically more tolerant of cold weather. This particular example is natural selection at work but is not dependent upon genetic mutation as the evolutionists insist.

                      Lets stick with dogs so that no one can say either of us is a racist or bigoted in any way.
                      Dog Nazi!



                      Dogs come in all sizes, all shapes and with various abilities. Can you give me a couple of the differences in dogs that came by the way of "environmental pressures" .
                      Nearly any breed of dog you want to name that's more than more than maybe a century or two old. Selective breeding wouldn't be possible without it. All modern dogs are descended from wolves and once some subspecies of wolf was domesticated people started noticing that some dogs did better under certain circumstances or had particular traits that made them more desirable and started intentionally breeding the dogs to enhance those traits. The point being that man didn't create those traits, he simply noticed them and then started to selectively breed in the one's he liked and breed out the one's he didn't. All of those traits are genetic and pretty much none of them are due to genetic mutation. They were all there in potentia in the wolf.

                      Now, I'm not suggesting that all of the various breed differences came about by genes being merely turned on or off. In fact, it may be rather few of them, actually. There are several ways that genetic differences can manifest and which traits came from which process is something I know nearly nothing about but environmental factors definitely play a role in whether and/or when a gene gets turned on or off and certainly could contribute to the creation of a new virus or a more (or less) virulent strain of an already existing virus.
                      `
                      Each cell expresses, or turns on, only a fraction of its genes. The rest of the genes are repressed, or turned off. The process of turning genes on and off is known as gene regulation. Gene regulation is an important part of normal development. Genes are turned on and off in different patterns during development to make a brain cell look and act different from a liver cell or a muscle cell, for example. Gene regulation also allows cells to react quickly to changes in their environments. Although we know that the regulation of genes is critical for life, this complex process is not yet fully understood.

                      Gene regulation can occur at any point during gene expression, but most commonly occurs at the level of transcription (when the information in a gene’s DNA is transferred to mRNA). Signals from the environment or from other cells activate proteins called transcription factors. These proteins bind to regulatory regions of a gene and increase or decrease the level of transcription. By controlling the level of transcription, this process can determine the amount of protein product that is made by a gene at any given time. (emphasis added) - Genetics Home Reference



                      Clete
                      sigpic
                      "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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