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Is there a Christian cosmology that doesn't include miracles?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
    God has all power which includes all energy, as energy is something that He created.


    God is all powerful. Nobody can "prohibit" Him anything.




    I agree with what you say above . . . but that is not at all what I am hearing from you.

    So, are you saying, are you Okay with? . . . God "could have" done creation without violating the physical laws.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

      I agree with what you say above . . . but that is not at all what I am hearing from you.
      Again, you're making no sense.

      Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
      So, are you saying, are you Okay with? . . . God "could have" done creation without violating the physical laws.
      There were no "physical laws" when God created something from nothing.
      All of my ancestors are human.
      Originally posted by Squeaky
      That explains why your an idiot.
      Originally posted by God's Truth
      Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
      Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
      (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

      1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
      (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

      Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

        I don't think you give enough credit to ancient man.

        They were geniuses (compared to modern humans today).

        https://kgov.com/genius

        .
        Now this is something that we can agree on. We are morons compared to our early ancestors.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
          Again, you're making no sense.


          There were no "physical laws" when God created something from nothing.
          OK, your unequivocally stating that God "could not" create the physical world without violating the physical laws, understood.

          What if God wanted to create in a way that didn't violate physical laws? Could He do that? Yes or no

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

            OK, your unequivocally stating that God "could not" create the physical world without violating the physical laws, understood.
            No, I most certainly did NOT say that. Why are you lying?

            God created the physical universe WITH physical laws.

            Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
            What if God wanted to create in a way that didn't violate physical laws? Could He do that? Yes or no
            Illogical and invalid question.
            All of my ancestors are human.
            Originally posted by Squeaky
            That explains why your an idiot.
            Originally posted by God's Truth
            Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
            Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
            (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

            1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
            (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

            Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
              .I would love to see the brilliant minds on this forum tackle, just how God did creation. Was it all miracles?
              No.

              There aren't many out there who would accuse me of having a brilliant mind, but even I can answer that one. .

              E=MC2 and I think most concede that it probably does,
              E is only approximately equal to the rest. See my sig.

              take M=E/C2 and put it in the place of some or all of the so called miracles.
              Godel.

              the term miracle may not be what we think it is. Maybe, just maybe miracle is a figure of speech meaning something like "things that are hard to understand".
              A miracle is an act that defies the laws of physics. They're ready to understand. God does them.
              .

              are in the eyes of the beholder. If you gave a cell phone to Moses, he would surely call it a miracle. Heck, the amount of diodes they can now get on the head of a pin, makes me think its a miracle! LOL
              Jesus rising from the dead is a miracle regardless of the technology available.

              there a Christian cosmology that doesn't include miracles? Maybe there should be? Why would God create laws of physics such as He did, only to immediately break them? Or, at least ask the question, if God wanted to create without violating "His" laws of physics, could He do it?
              Kurt Godel.
              Where is the evidence for a global flood?
              E≈mc2
              "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

              "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
              -Bob B.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Jonahdog View Post
                If my deity is myself at least I should not have difficulty interpreting what I write. How many different christian denominations are there? Do they all agree on one interpretation of the Bible? Why cannot your god give a straight answer? Are works needed for salvation for example? Was Calvin right, you are either chosen or doomed? Those strike me as valid theological questions
                "It's a miracle" is a common ploy of Christians. With no hope of figuring it out.
                You overstate. This isn't the thread for it (trolling) but you aren't even open to intelligent discussion. This is just mindless repetition that every nonthinking 'anti-' has ever produced. Why even come on a Christian forum, Jonah? Are you looking for miraculous conversion? Something that will finally convince you? The Lord Jesus Christ is the focal point where all Christians will stand and all antiChristians will stumble and fall. God declared Him as a place to stand or fall and no other choice, and being a God (the God) He gets to make the rules regardless of what you 'think you need.' You cannot live without Him, yet are such an angry man that you don't care to deal in reality, just your own little facts and you stand behind others (atheists or wrong scientists) to try and hide from what is true, instead "preferring" sight mostly unseen, in a different 'reality' whether it is true or not. Such isn't honest or truthful, Jonah. God exists. Most of us Christians can prove it, and you've never once, not one time, asked me (for instance) why I know. Not once. You don't want to know why, and worse, don't want to know. Why? Because you don't like Him, regardless of doing something about the poor condition of man that you complain about. You should do a one-on-one with someone on TOL to get to the bottom of your cognitive dissonance.

                You just seem to be trolling the thread for no apparent reason other than "I don't like this topic" or "I don't believe this thread is valid." On either count, it wasn't addressed to you. Okay, but at least be honest if you are going to participate. ▲This isn't it▲

                Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

                Start another thread please, preferably in the Religion forum, or perhaps even the ECT.
                Nicer than banning him. He does know better but Godly grace is before him, even in simply posting.
                My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                ? Yep

                Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                  No, I most certainly did NOT say that. Why are you lying?

                  God created the physical universe WITH physical laws.


                  Illogical and invalid question.
                  First calm down, please don't call me a liar. I am in no way trying to win an argument and or justify my thoughts. I am just trying to understand what you and other Christian believe.

                  Perhaps it is better asked this way.

                  Are you saying that God created our universe that has physical laws, in a manner that broke some or one of those physical laws? I think that can be a yes or a no ??

                  A. I think you are saying yes. But am not sure.

                  B. If your saying "yes" then could God make another universe with say different physical laws, in a manner that didn't violate those physical laws? In other words no miracles.

                  C. Or is it mandatory for creation to have miracles? Again , I think this can be yes or no, but I am not sure.




                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Stripe View Post






                    A miracle is an act that defies the laws of physics. . . . . . God does them.
                    .






                    Kurt Godel.
                    First thanks for your thoughtful responses. I agree with your definition of miracles above and don't in any way believe that God is not capable of them.

                    But I also am very careful not to give God credit or blame (actually that is a figure of speech, I never blame God) for anything that I am not absolutely sure that He had a hand in.

                    I am not convinced, at this point, that God is forced to violate His laws of physics to perform certain things He has done.

                    Miracles are not magic because the event actually occurs. I am sure your not saying God is a magician?

                    Since "miracles are not magic" can't cosmology at least theorize just how the so called miracles are done?

                    It seems to me that miracles and magic are so very different yet people don't see the difference like they should. To me, it seems like the goal of the cosmologist should be to distinguish the two ideas as to be as far apart as the universe is wide.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

                      First calm down, please don't call me a liar.
                      • I'm calm
                      • You lied
                      Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
                      I am in no way trying to win an argument and or justify my thoughts. I am just trying to understand what you and other Christian believe.

                      Perhaps it is better asked this way.

                      Are you saying that God created our universe that has physical laws, in a manner that broke some or one of those physical laws? I think that can be a yes or a no ??
                      God created the universe and its laws at the same time. The laws are only definitions/descriptions of the behavior of matter and energy.
                      All of my ancestors are human.
                      Originally posted by Squeaky
                      That explains why your an idiot.
                      Originally posted by God's Truth
                      Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                      Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                      (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                      1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                      (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                      Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

                        First thanks for your thoughtful responses. I agree with your definition of miracles above and don't in any way believe that God is not capable of them.

                        But I also am very careful not to give God credit or blame (actually that is a figure of speech, I never blame God) for anything that I am not absolutely sure that He had a hand in.

                        I am not convinced, at this point, that God is forced to violate His laws of physics to perform certain things He has done.

                        Miracles are not magic because the event actually occurs. I am sure your not saying God is a magician?

                        Since "miracles are not magic" can't cosmology at least theorize just how the so called miracles are done?

                        It seems to me that miracles and magic are so very different yet people don't see the difference like they should. To me, it seems like the goal of the cosmologist should be to distinguish the two ideas as to be as far apart as the universe is wide.
                        Matthew 14:22-33 Luke 6:6-11
                        My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                        Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                        Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                        Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                        No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                        Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                        ? Yep

                        Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                        ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                        Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
                          First thanks for your thoughtful responses.


                          I agree with your definition of miracles.
                          I wouldn't go so far as to call it a definition, but I think we're on the same page.

                          But I also am very careful not to give God credit or blame (actually that is a figure of speech, I never blame God) for anything that I am not absolutely sure that He had a hand in.
                          Are you concerned that too much is categorized as a miracle when perhaps it need not be? I would be sympathetic to that point of view. As a creationist, it is common for any idea I have to be dismissed as requiring the miraculous when the fact is that I'm sticking to science far more closely than the Darwinists.

                          I am not convinced, at this point, that God is forced to violate His laws of physics to perform certain things He has done.
                          You think that it is physically possible to bring a man back from the dead?

                          Miracles are not magic because the event actually occurs. I am sure you are not saying God is a magician?
                          I think it was Josh Craddock who said it best: God is natural, everything else is supernatural.

                          Since "miracles are not magic" can't cosmology at least theorize just how the so called miracles are done?
                          Depends on the incident. I think it is safe to say that when God acts, it's a miracle. That doesn't do justice to Jesus' time on Earth, but it might cover the time prior.

                          It seems to me that miracles and magic are so very different yet people don't see the difference like they should. To me, it seems like the goal of the cosmologist should be to distinguish the two ideas as to be as far apart as the universe is wide.
                          If we are doing science, then we should assume that the things we see have an explanation from physics. If we are doing philosophy, then we can acknowledge that every aspect of physics has a "natural"* explanation.

                          *Or supernatural, if we ignore Josh.
                          Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                          E≈mc2
                          "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                          "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                          -Bob B.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
                            I use to love learning about all the proofs that God Created the universe. I especially liked geochronometry.
                            I still enjoy hearing new things as they are discovered on a daily bases that prove a young earth.
                            But a lot of creation science gets a little too far into the weeds for the average person to wittiness with.

                            Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that those things shouldn't be explored, they should be. But it appears so so deep into the weeds . . . that it almost seems like people are trying to convince themselves and not others.

                            From my prospective as a firm believer in a young earth, I think a broader more hypothetical approach would win more converts to the young earth. I would love to see the brilliant minds on this forum tackle, just how God did creation. Was it all miracles?

                            My favorite way to start with a evolutionist is with the joke about the scientist who eventually created life in the lab, using a piece of clay. And as they presented the life to God, of course God says, get your own clay.

                            If, E=MC2 and I think most concede that it probably does, then why can't creationist take M=E/C2 and put it in the place of some or all of the so called miracles.

                            Maybe the term miracle may not be what we think it is. Maybe, just maybe miracle is a figure of speech meaning something like "things that are hard to understand". My understanding is the term "miracle" is defined as actions that violate the laws of physics. If you believe in E=MC2 then I think you have to believe in M=E/C2, or energy into matter that would not violate physics.

                            Miracles are in the eyes of the beholder. If you gave a cell phone to Moses, he would surely call it a miracle. Heck, the amount of diodes they can now get on the head of a pin, makes me think its a miracle! LOL

                            Is there a Christian cosmology that doesn't include miracles? Maybe there should be? Why would God create laws of physics such as He did, only to immediately break them? Or, at least ask the question, if God wanted to create without violating "His" laws of physics, could He do it?
                            First of all, I have not read the whole thread. I will read the thread but time doesn't permit me to do that and still write a post so I'm choosing to write the post first and so I hope this doesn't turn out to be a total repeat of stuff that has come before!



                            It sounds to me like you're trying to have it both ways, where God both creates nature and allows natural processes to "create" much of the world we see around us. I don't think you can have it that way. At least not during the creation week, anyway. Certainly after that God has, for the most part, permitted nature to take it's course, the most obvious exception being Noah's Flood. In fact, it seems fair enough to say that those two events, the creation week and Noah's Flood, comprise the lion's share of most all Christian cosmologies that exist.

                            The creation week was clearly six days of mostly continuous supernatural events. I can't think of any of the significant events that are recorded in Genesis that would not qualify as being miracles in the sense that it took something outside of nature to cause them to occur.

                            The Flood, on the other hand may not have been miraculous at all. The flood was triggered by the downing of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil which was done by regular human beings. When the Tree fell the fountains of the great deep, which it had apparently been holding back, broke forth and flooded the whole Earth causing all kinds of different phenomena that we observe all over the planet by normal natural processes.

                            Having said all that, I understand and empathize with your complaint. Many christian cosmologies tend to pull out the miracle trump card too easily which just makes them seem less scientific and more of a contrivance than anything else. I encourage you to look into the Hydroplate Theory. It, to my mind, seems to have the least "contrived" feel to it than any other I've looked into. It's all about explaining the geology we see via entirely natural processes precipitated by both the manner in which the Earth was made and by Noah's Flood.

                            https://www.creationscience.com/

                            Clete

                            sigpic
                            "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Clete View Post

                              First of all, I have not read the whole thread. I will read the thread but time doesn't permit me to do that and still write a post so I'm choosing to write the post first and so I hope this doesn't turn out to be a total repeat of stuff that has come before!



                              It sounds to me like you're trying to have it both ways, where God both creates nature and allows natural processes to "create" much of the world we see around us. I don't think you can have it that way. At least not during the creation week, anyway. Certainly after that God has, for the most part, permitted nature to take it's course, the most obvious exception being Noah's Flood. In fact, it seems fair enough to say that those two events, the creation week and Noah's Flood, comprise the lion's share of most all Christian cosmologies that exist.

                              The creation week was clearly six days of mostly continuous supernatural events. I can't think of any of the significant events that are recorded in Genesis that would not qualify as being miracles in the sense that it took something outside of nature to cause them to occur.

                              The Flood, on the other hand may not have been miraculous at all. The flood was triggered by the downing of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil which was done by regular human beings. When the Tree fell the fountains of the great deep, which it had apparently been holding back, broke forth and flooded the whole Earth causing all kinds of different phenomena that we observe all over the planet by normal natural processes.

                              Having said all that, I understand and empathize with your complaint. Many christian cosmologies tend to pull out the miracle trump card too easily which just makes them seem less scientific and more of a contrivance than anything else. I encourage you to look into the Hydroplate Theory. It, to my mind, seems to have the least "contrived" feel to it than any other I've looked into. It's all about explaining the geology we see via entirely natural processes precipitated by both the manner in which the Earth was made and by Noah's Flood.

                              https://www.creationscience.com/

                              Clete
                              Thank for your wonderful response, One correction, I am really not complaining.

                              I would just like to see more cosmologist explore how and why God did what He did and less on the fact that He did it! YES, He created, now tell us how and why.

                              Let me try my inquire this way.

                              I am in manufacturing. I have conceived, designed and manufactured many different products. That is how I make my living and I am doing pretty well.

                              At any time before God Created, in any duration of time, did God follow any of the process that I follow when I am manufacturing? Conceive, design and then manufacture.

                              Did God conceive the idea for creation before He instigated creation? Yes or No

                              Did God design creation at some point before He instigated creation? Yes or No

                              Did God engineer creation at some point before He instigated creation? Yes or No

                              If we can agree that He went through a process in creating, maybe not the process above, but that God went through a process, maybe just maybe we can explore that process to get some insight into God ways.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

                                Thank for your wonderful response, One correction, I am really not complaining.

                                I would just like to see more cosmologist explore how and why God did what He did and less on the fact that He did it! YES, He created, now tell us how and why.
                                The ONLY place that you will find "why God did what He did" is in the Bible.
                                All of my ancestors are human.
                                Originally posted by Squeaky
                                That explains why your an idiot.
                                Originally posted by God's Truth
                                Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                                Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                                1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                                Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                                Comment

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