Discussion-One on One: Abortion (red77 vs. Turbo)

[chatmaggot]

well dear little one, I know you just suffered a heinous crime that was very painful and embarrassing, but I have decided that you will now also suffer morning sickness and regular embarrassing gyneacology check-ups and lack of ability to enjoy any more childhood activities like climbing trees with your friends (such activities endanger the pregnancy) and you will also suffer embarrassment

Glenda,

Seriously...here is why I believe you hate babies. You think it is justifiable to kill an unborn baby to save the mother from embarrassment, morning sickness, doctor visits, and not being able to climb trees while pregnant!

Can you imagine when this woman stands at the Judgement seat of Christ and explains to God that she read on an online forum from someone named Glenda that it was better to kill her unborn baby so that she could climb trees with her friends!

Do you think God will be happy about that you convinced an 11 year old to kill her baby?

Luke 17:2

It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

[Servo]

Are you ever going to answer Delmar's question?

Since you mentioned Schindler, can I justly call Hitler evil for killing six million jews...or will I have had to have walked in his shoes first...or carry his load?

How could any person condemn Hitler? It isn't in the Bible!
We must love chatmaggot, love.....














....love them straight to Hell.

[Glenda]

Are you ever going to answer Delmar's question?

Since you mentioned Schindler, can I justly call Hitler evil for killing six million jews...or will I have had to have walked in his shoes first...or carry his load?

I can see how you would be enormously eager to promote a child rape victim of Hitler to have his baby or you would wish to have such a fertilized egg transferred to a womb in a member of your family. You are very generous and loving and I'm sure you would adore the child if it looked identical to the dad and had any genetic madness defect or disease the same as the dad.
I applaud your willingness to act according to your words and place yourself in the shoes of a rape victim and carry their load, even if it is spawn of Hitler. You are willing to bring this new life to maturity and that is a huge task and responsibility and I congratulate you for taking over the load of someone who could not cope with bearing Hitler's seed.
Congratulations on willingness to ensure Hitler lives on in his offspring.

[chatmaggot]

I can see how you would be enormously eager to promote a child rape victim of Hitler to have his baby or you would wish to have such a fertilized egg transferred to a womb in a member of your family. You are very generous and loving and I'm sure you would adore the child if it looked identical to the dad and had any genetic madness defect or disease the same as the dad.
I applaud your willingness to act according to your words and place yourself in the shoes of a rape victim and carry their load, even if it is spawn of Hitler. You are willing to bring this new life to maturity and that is a huge task and responsibility and I congratulate you for taking over the load of someone who could not cope with bearing Hitler's seed.
Congratulations on willingness to ensure Hitler lives on in his offspring.

Are you saying we should punish the child for the sins of the father?

The Bible strictly forbids that!

Ezekiel 18:1-3

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
" 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Glenda...please understand this. You would kill a baby because it looks like its father or because of the sins of the father. However...God says to NOT punish the child for the sins of the father.

You would go against the commands of God?

[Glenda]

Are you saying we should punish the child for the sins of the father?

The Bible strictly forbids that!

Ezekiel 18:1-3

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
" 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Glenda...please understand this. You would kill a baby because it looks like its father or because of the sins of the father. However...God says to NOT punish the child for the sins of the father.

You would go against the commands of God?

Of course I wouldn't go against the commands of God, but neither would I offer to have a rape victim's fertilized egg implanted in my womb since I'm unwilling to bear their load. Since I'm unwilling to bear their load, I have no right to criticize any choice they may make.

However YOU have the right to criticize their choice since YOU are willing to carry their load for them by ensuring the fertilized egg is welcome to be transferred to a womb of one of your family members to keep it alive if the rape victim chooses not to keep the fertilized egg alive in their womb. You can keep more rape victim fertilized eggs in frozen storage so that no fertilzed egg need be lost and you can have them implanted after the previous egg matures and vacates the womb.

This is where you and I are different. YOU have the right to criticize because YOU are personally saving the egg at great personal effort, discomfort and expense to yourself ... instead of spruking worthless, empty self-righteous words in absence of offering alternative ways of saving the fertilized egg. Words will not save a fertilized egg, but an alternative womb or frozen storage will save it.

You are more righteous than I in taking such measures to ensure you secure the life of the fertilized egg, since these medical options are available, yet I am unwilling to participate in them while you are. Good on you. That is definitely being a true pro-life activist because you are 'actively' involved in saving the life of the fertilized egg!

It certianly would be more refreshing to discuss taking such positive steps instead of worthlessly criticising pregnant rape victims who aren't aware you offer these fertilized egg life-saving options.

It would be worthless to criticize a pregnant rape victim being unwilling to nurture a fertilized egg if the critic was ALSO unwilling to nurture that same fertilized egg! No point criticizing someone for NOT doing something you are also NOT willing to do.

[rexlunae]

chatmaggot and Shimei:

I'm going to reassert my earlier question about compulsory adoption. For or against and why?

A lot of anti-abortion advocates like to pretend that it's just a matter of liking or hating babies. But that's not the point at all. The question is, if a woman has done nothing wrong, nothing to deserve the burdon of the care of a baby, what right does the law have to assign her that burdon merely as a result of her being a victim of a hideous crime? Does the need of the child to have that kind of support trump the right of the mother to choose her own life?

If you say the child's needs trump the woman's rights, then it seems like you pretty much have to support compulsory adoption.

[Delmar]

JAS 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

Talk is cheap. What is a life REALLY worth ... in physical reality rather than words, to those claiming to be desperate to save new life at any cost?

What if there is a raped pregnant girl who may wish to take 'morning-after' pill following the rape? Would you simply talk at her, or would you offer to actually put your money and efforts where your mouth is and do whatever it takes to save the fertilized egg? Would you offer to sponsor the pregnant girl so she could afford to have the baby if she wanted? Would you offer to pay all the associated costs of having and raising the child?
If she was intent on NOT carrying the pregnancy, then would you offer to pay for her to have the fertilized egg harvested at an IVF clinic so you could in fact save the life of the newly fertilised egg and you could organise to have it implanted in wife or daughter womb so as this new life is carried, born and grows up in your family? What is a new life worth to you???????? Please give a dollar and effort value instead of empty talk ... would you care what colour or race the baby was (considering the racist threads on TOL) or whether fertilized egg carried any disease from the rape? Would you be happy to risk the disease danger on your wife or daughter womb since you are happy for a child stranger to risk this danger?

What is a life of poverty-stricken pregnancy (mother and baby) really worth to financial Christians? Not in placards, but in dollars and personal effort?

Think of Schindler's list ... he personally paid to save lives. What will you pay to save lives? How personal are you willing to make the effort ... rather than talk to promote them to go somewhere else to get help.

What would you be willing to pay poverty-stricken pregnant females to have babies that would have been otherwise aborted coz females could not afford pregnancy or resulting child ... what is the price you are willing to put on a life that you expect others to be able to afford? Are you willing to carry a fertilized egg that you push a raped child to carry? Instead of telling people where they can look for help, why don't you actually physically help them yourself instead of simply talk?

Are you really prepared to personally help or simply talk?

What is a new life worth to you in REAL terms????

JAS 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

Talk is cheap ... and sometimes even worthless.
Fertilized eggs are depending on YOUR intervention because nobody else seems to want them ... if the current womb doesn't want it, are you willing to offer an alternative womb?
Maybe you could adopt an egg instead of an unwanted baby. The egg doesn't mind which womb it lives in. If someone else's daughter can't handle a pregnancy, then maybe your daughter could.

Do you know a young lady, who wants to put her baby up for adoption, that needs a place to stay until the child is born. I'll have to talk to my wife, but I think we could take her in. We would certainly be willing to adopt the baby!

[Glenda]

Do you know a young lady, who wants to put her baby up for adoption, that needs a place to stay until the child is born. I'll have to talk to my wife, but I think we could take her in. We would certainly be willing to adopt the baby!

Delmar, this is an absolutely excellent thing to do and I'm certain if you spoke with a Crisis Pregnancy Center that they would have a list of needy pregnant young women who would jump at the opportunity you offer of taking them in until baby is born. Adoption centres can't usually keep up with demand for babies so you would probably find you are temporarily parenting needy pregnant young women rather than permanently adopting a baby. Whatever the outcome, it would be wonderful real needed help you are giving and that is so much more valuable than any words.
God bless you in this.

[Delmar]

chatmaggot and Shimei:

I'm going to reassert my earlier question about compulsory adoption. For or against and why?

A lot of anti-abortion advocates like to pretend that it's just a matter of liking or hating babies. But that's not the point at all. The question is, if a woman has done nothing wrong, nothing to deserve the burdon of the care of a baby, what right does the law have to assign her that burdon merely as a result of her being a victim of a hideous crime? Does the need of the child to have that kind of support trump the right of the mother to choose her own life?

If you say the child's needs trump the woman's rights, then it seems like you pretty much have to support compulsory adoption.

If a girl finds herself in this position there are three options.
Find a way to raise the baby.
Put the child up for adoption.
Murder the baby.

Non of the available options are free of "burden", but the greater burden is to live with the reality that you have committed murder!

[rexlunae]

If a girl finds herself in this position there are three options.
Find a way to raise the baby.
Put the child up for adoption.
Murder the baby.

Non of the available options are free of "burden",

From your response, I'm not sure which way you are answering. Does she or does she not have an obligation to support the child at her own expense, and do you answer the same way to compulsory adoption?

but the greater burden is to live with the reality that you have committed murder!

That's nothing more than your preference. Giving birth to a child from a rape is a lot to demand of a woman, and some may consider that to be a greater burden, especially if they don't see abortion as murder.

[Delmar]

From your response, I'm not sure which way you are answering. Does she or does she not have an obligation to support the child at her own expense, and do you answer the same way to compulsory adoption?



That's nothing more than your preference. Giving birth to a child from a rape is a lot to demand of a woman, and some may consider that to be a greater burden, especially if they don't see abortion as murder.

If she is not willing to provide for the baby, why would she want to keep him? You are not making sense.

[rexlunae]

If she is not willing to provide for the baby, why would she want to keep him?

You're advocating that she must carry the baby to term, are you not? You are, therefore, requiring her to provide for the child, if only for a limited time.

[MauriceAWilliams]

I think a central issue on abortion is when do our government officials think human life begins. Some politicians think that human life does not begin even after live birth. There’s a question being debated by members of Congress that if an attempted late-term abortion results in a live birth, should all care be taken to preserve the life of the baby? Some politicians argue No! If the original procedure was to be an abortion, the end result should remain an abortion. The live baby should be allowed to die. Some states want laws to force an attempt to save the baby.

Think about this for a minute. It should be a duty of our government to protect the lives of its citizens. If a baby is born live, no matter what the doctor’s intentions are, that live baby, by that time, should be considered a human, and it should become a citizen as soon as it is obvious that is human.

Some people question whether human life begins at conception, and some people have different motives than a purely biological inquiry. If human life never occurs in the womb and some influential politicians argue that human life does not even occur even after live birth, where will those people go with their arguments? How do we teach our children that nobody knows when people become human? At what point between conception and early childhood did our children become American citizens?

Don’t you think all politicians who want our votes to rule our country should hold that we become citizens as soon as we become human? And that is certainly at some point before our live birth.

[jasonwill]

ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[annabenedetti]

I think a central issue on abortion is when do our government officials think human life begins. Some politicians think that human life does not begin even after live birth.

As do some philosophers/professors, the most notorious being

Peter Singer.

http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/1993----.htm